How we can understand if we overdo with the compression?

Author
StarTattooed
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 23
  • Joined: 2005/10/27 12:46:02
  • Location: Bulgaria
  • Status: offline
2006/04/22 10:09:47 (permalink)

How we can understand if we overdo with the compression?

I am asking especially about the lead vocal tracks.
#1

14 Replies Related Threads

    krizrox
    Max Output Level: -35 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4046
    • Joined: 2003/11/23 09:49:33
    • Location: Elgin, IL
    • Status: offline
    RE: How we can understand if we overdo with the compression? 2006/04/22 12:08:17 (permalink)
    Well, there are any number of things - the audo sounds flat and lifeless (squashed). There is some audible pumping or breathing. There is a lot of background noise.

    Those are some of the more obvious problems.

    Larry Kriz
    www.LnLRecording.com
    www.myspace.com/lnlrecording

    Sonar PE 8.5, Samplitude Pro 11, Sonic Core Scope Professional/XTC, A16 Ultra AD/DA, Intel DG965RY MOBO, Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 2.4GHz processor, XFX GeForce 7300 GT PCIe video card, Barracuda 750 & 320GB SATA drives, 4GB DDR Ram, Plextor DVD/CD-R burner.
    #2
    NG
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 34
    • Joined: 2006/04/08 11:40:08
    • Location: New Zealand
    • Status: offline
    RE: How we can understand if we overdo with the compression? 2006/04/22 22:58:15 (permalink)
    I read some mastering engineers opinions about compression, and they said that it is better to use little or no compression in the mixing stage. But in the other hand I read that some are using compression not once but twice especially on drums and bass.
    If the track sounds good, is it necessary to use compressor?
    #3
    StarTattooed
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 23
    • Joined: 2005/10/27 12:46:02
    • Location: Bulgaria
    • Status: offline
    RE: How we can understand if we overdo with the compression? 2006/04/23 05:58:11 (permalink)
    Yes, but in the mixing stage compression is recommended for vocals and guitars... drums...
    it helps a lot for the mixing...
    #4
    krizrox
    Max Output Level: -35 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4046
    • Joined: 2003/11/23 09:49:33
    • Location: Elgin, IL
    • Status: offline
    RE: How we can understand if we overdo with the compression? 2006/04/23 08:41:41 (permalink)
    Whereas I'd say try to avoid using it if at all possible. You can do a lot with mic placement and various other things "at the source" not to mention EQ and volume curves and such. I'm not trying to suggest you should never use a compressor - but I always take a less is more attitude. A more "organic" approach if you know what I mean. That philosophy has served me well.

    Larry Kriz
    www.LnLRecording.com
    www.myspace.com/lnlrecording

    Sonar PE 8.5, Samplitude Pro 11, Sonic Core Scope Professional/XTC, A16 Ultra AD/DA, Intel DG965RY MOBO, Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 2.4GHz processor, XFX GeForce 7300 GT PCIe video card, Barracuda 750 & 320GB SATA drives, 4GB DDR Ram, Plextor DVD/CD-R burner.
    #5
    StarTattooed
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 23
    • Joined: 2005/10/27 12:46:02
    • Location: Bulgaria
    • Status: offline
    RE: How we can understand if we overdo with the compression? 2006/04/23 10:12:19 (permalink)
    Thanks for your advices. I'll follow them on my next mix ;)
    #6
    chaz
    Max Output Level: -47.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2775
    • Joined: 2004/02/03 12:08:00
    • Location: Tampa, FL
    • Status: offline
    RE: How we can understand if we overdo with the compression? 2006/04/23 13:05:25 (permalink)
    It all boils down to training the ears to know what an overly compressed sound sounds like. Larry gave a good idea. Not everyone can hear it, but those with seasoned ears can hear it immediately. I know I can. And I absolutely hate that sound!

    I think the use of compression is highly misunderstood. It is used mostly to "tame" a track that is all over the place and even it out. It can be used to help a track "cut" though and "sit" in a mix better as well. It can also be used as a effect like the "New York" compression technique, where the compressor is purposely set into pumping and breathing to the beat of the music.

    My approach is to use compression to tame or even out a track as well as to help it cut though and sit better in a mix. Sometimes that means using a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio, but I have also used ratios of 6:1 & 8:1. If a track is fairly even, I leave it alone and use no compression on it. I will also compress a bass, kick and snare track and sometimes OH's to help them "sit" better in a mix as well. But I will generally set a compressor into limiting mode (12:1 to 15:1) when mixing BGV's to help them sit better in a mix.

    One thing I never use in a mix is multiband compression. My take is that if one feels the need to go that route, they have not addressed the track properly with other means first.

    When a solo instrument or vocal track will not sit right in a mix.... almost there but not quite..... I will use an advance technique with dbl-compression (i.e., following one compressor with another). It is used all of of the time.

    Still.... With all of that said..... The end result is what matters the most. How one gets there, though important as well, is secondary.
    #7
    NG
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 34
    • Joined: 2006/04/08 11:40:08
    • Location: New Zealand
    • Status: offline
    RE: How we can understand if we overdo with the compression? 2006/04/23 15:05:39 (permalink)
    Thanks StarTattooed for starting this thread and thanks Larry, chaz for the 'pro' info :)
    #8
    papa2004
    Max Output Level: -10.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 6475
    • Joined: 2005/03/23 12:40:47
    • Location: Southeastern U.S.
    • Status: offline
    RE: How we can understand if we overdo with the compression? 2006/04/24 03:51:08 (permalink)
    There is a wealth of information to be found by clicking on the links found HERE...

    I highly recommend any new/intermediate user of any DAW software read as many of the articles posted there...

    Regards,
    Papa
    #9
    ohhey
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 11676
    • Joined: 2003/11/06 16:24:07
    • Location: Fort Worth Texas USA
    • Status: offline
    RE: How we can understand if we overdo with the compression? 2006/04/24 10:45:07 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: StarTattooed

    I am asking especially about the lead vocal tracks.


    There are two things compression does, it limits peaks and makes softer (lower volume) stuff louder. Both of these things can go wrong. This is why I try not to use compression on tracks. You can do a much better job by using the clip gain envelope to get the dynamics perfect. It's a lot of work but well worth it, and you only have to do it once. A compressor can only process the entire track with one set of rules to go by. With the clip gain you can adjust each word or part of word till it's perfect. And because the clip gain is pre effects bin it won't bother the reverb, the perfected signal hits the reverb after the clip gain.

    As for you question, you can tell when the compressor has over limited because as a word or phrase starts getting louder you can hear it kick in and reduce. This may also cause a precieved high frequency loss or dullness at the peak, almost like the singer steped back from the mic too far or looked away and went off axis too far from the mic.

    The other thing is when it brings soft areas up too much and makes it sound like the singer is yelling in your ear (no dynamics). This can cause all kinds of problems when you go to add reverb. For example that extra loudness on a word might casue the reverb to produce too much near reflection and make the vocal sound boomy, smeared, or even distorted. The added reverb can also cause a harsh peak so you have make the dynamics worse, not better. On bass guitar overcompression can make the bass unfocused and even kill the groove of the song if the bass was keeping it going.
    #10
    papa2004
    Max Output Level: -10.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 6475
    • Joined: 2005/03/23 12:40:47
    • Location: Southeastern U.S.
    • Status: offline
    RE: How we can understand if we overdo with the compression? 2006/04/25 00:29:39 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: NG

    I read some mastering engineers opinions about compression, and they said that it is better to use little or no compression in the mixing stage. But in the other hand I read that some are using compression not once but twice especially on drums and bass.
    If the track sounds good, is it necessary to use compressor?


    NG,

    Opinions about the use of compression, limiting, etc., are greatly varied and, IMO, highly subjective depending on several things:


    • The genre of music and how you want it to sound;
    • The quality of the recording techniques used;
    • The consistency of the performers' playing/singing;


    There are basically only two "rules" about compression that are commonly considered "damn near etched in granite" in most pro studios...

    1) Use very little compression (if any at all) when tracking...Obviously, if a lead guitarist has a signature sound that relies on his use of a compressor type stomp box let him use it...But you should also record a "dry" track at the same time whenever possible;

    2) Don't use compression or limiting on the master output bus when mixing (unless you're really focused on achieving a particular sound that would practically take the mastering engineer "out of the picture")...

    BTW, item 1 also applies to reverb FX and such...Once the effect is recorded onto the track with your instrument or vocal you can't remove it or change it in anyway...

    Understand that "tracking", "mixing", and "mastering" are three totally separate (yet intrinsically related in how each stage is somewhat dependent on the others) stages...There are certain accepted protocols in each stage, however, you should feel free to experiment and think "outside the box" if you think your project needs that approach...

    Regards,
    Papa
    #11
    NG
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 34
    • Joined: 2006/04/08 11:40:08
    • Location: New Zealand
    • Status: offline
    RE: How we can understand if we overdo with the compression? 2006/04/25 10:18:40 (permalink)
    Thanks Papa :)
    The more I read/practice/listen the more I understand/feel/hear what is right or wrong in my music. I think when I read my posts after one year from now I will laugh or blush ;)
    #12
    chaz
    Max Output Level: -47.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2775
    • Joined: 2004/02/03 12:08:00
    • Location: Tampa, FL
    • Status: offline
    RE: How we can understand if we overdo with the compression? 2006/04/25 20:30:06 (permalink)
    Opinions about the use of compression, limiting, etc., are greatly varied and, IMO, highly subjective depending on several things:

    The genre of music and how you want it to sound;

    The quality of the recording techniques used;

    The consistency of the performers' playing/singing;

    There are basically only two "rules" about compression that are commonly considered "damn near etched in granite" in most pro studios...

    1) Use very little compression (if any at all) when tracking...Obviously, if a lead guitarist has a signature sound that relies on his use of a compressor type stomp box let him use it...But you should also record a "dry" track at the same time whenever possible;

    2) Don't use compression or limiting on the master output bus when mixing (unless you're really focused on achieving a particular sound that would practically take the mastering engineer "out of the picture")...

    BTW, item 1 also applies to reverb FX and such...Once the effect is recorded onto the track with your instrument or vocal you can't remove it or change it in anyway...

    Understand that "tracking", "mixing", and "mastering" are three totally separate (yet intrinsically related in how each stage is somewhat dependent on the others) stages...There are certain accepted protocols in each stage, however, you should feel free to experiment and think "outside the box" if you think your project needs that approach...

    Excellent comments!
    #13
    chaz
    Max Output Level: -47.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2775
    • Joined: 2004/02/03 12:08:00
    • Location: Tampa, FL
    • Status: offline
    RE: How we can understand if we overdo with the compression? 2006/04/25 20:46:38 (permalink)
    Thanks StarTattooed for starting this thread and thanks Larry, chaz for the 'pro' info :)

    No problem.

    Fwiw.... I started a thread about Mixing Basics: Knowing Your Plugins. That would be a good read for anyone starting out or at an Intermediate level of mixing.
    #14
    bso
    Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 351
    • Joined: 2003/11/20 23:38:03
    • Status: offline
    RE: How we can understand if we overdo with the compression? 2006/05/14 01:56:18 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: StarTattooed

    I am asking especially about the lead vocal tracks.
    All of the above information is excellent. When asking about lead vocals in particular.. I'd think you're dealing with compression to mostly smooth transients in the track... and general leveling. Slower release settings and mild compression ratios are a good place to start though setting the threashold is the most important parameter.
    #15
    Jump to:
    © 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1