Helpful ReplyHow well do well known brickwall limiters handle ISPs?

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backwoods
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2017/06/30 23:23:04 (permalink)

How well do well known brickwall limiters handle ISPs?

Thought this test was interesting... some of the highly vaunted plugins don't do as well as cheaper alternatives on this test.
 
Still not sure how closely ISPs should be considered when making music but it's an interesting subject all the same
 
https://www.saintpid.se/e...ue-peak-limiters-test/

 
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bitflipper
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Re: How well do well known brickwall limiters handle ISPs? 2017/07/01 04:27:18 (permalink)
Of course they should be considered. Any limiter worth its salt should do exactly what it says on the tin: limit.
 
Handling ISPs requires calculating true peak values. Fortunately, that's easy to do: oversampling! Which is why I am surprised that high-end standards from Sonnox and UAD failed the test. Note that not all limiters have a button called "oversampling". Some call it "true peak". Same thing. I can't believe those limiters don't have this option.
 
Interesting note on Pro-L: "Pro-L does not handle ISP automatically – you need to use Lookahead and keep an eye on the meter." They do not say whether oversampling was enabled for the test. Pro-L offers 2x and 4x oversampling, either of which should be adequate at 44.1 KHz. I do not use either option, and it always limits properly. Just did a test, setting the limit -0.4 dB and checked the output: exactly -0.4 dB. I do, however, usually have a lookahead setting of 250us.
 
Their finding on Ozone matches my own experience. It's always right on the money.


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bitflipper
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Re: How well do well known brickwall limiters handle ISPs? 2017/07/01 04:33:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2017/07/03 03:37:22
I have to question how realistic the test was. They took an already-mastered track that had been peak-limited to -1.0 dB, then boosted it by 7.5 dB to test the limiters. If your mixes are hitting the master bus at +6.5 dB you don't a better limiter, you need to learn how to mix.


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backwoods
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Re: How well do well known brickwall limiters handle ISPs? 2017/07/01 06:04:37 (permalink)
i think they must have been using the older sonnox limiter-- 1.5 which was recently released introduced true peak limiting.
 
i went looking for things like this because i have a tc electronic loudness meter (vst) and all my limiters go .1 ABOVE 0 according to that thing. I don't know how accurate this test was either. it just seems weird that there is such variance around the -1 figure they were expecting. also surprising that wavelab meters, nugen, izotope meters don't get the same readings

 
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The Maillard Reaction
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. 2017/07/01 12:52:48 (permalink)
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post edited by mister happy - 2017/07/04 11:09:37


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The Maillard Reaction
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. 2017/07/01 12:56:33 (permalink)
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post edited by mister happy - 2017/07/04 11:09:50


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Jeff Evans
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Re: How well do well known brickwall limiters handle ISPs? 2017/07/01 13:11:18 (permalink)
PSP Xenon has an over sample button which can compensate for inter sample peaks.  I wonder if they even had it switched in.  It is very easy to overlook.

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drewfx1
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Re: How well do well known brickwall limiters handle ISPs? 2017/07/01 16:58:59 (permalink)
bitflipper
Which is why I am surprised that high-end standards from Sonnox and UAD failed the test. Note that not all limiters have a button called "oversampling". Some call it "true peak". Same thing. I can't believe those limiters don't have this option.



The UAD Precision Limiter is old and they've always touted it as basically doing as little as possible:
 

No upsampling is used, nor does the Precision Limiter pass audio through any filters — audio remains untouched unless the compressor is working, in which case, only gain is affected.

 
They could upsample just the sidechain, but again - it's old and I don't think it was really designed to squeeze the last fraction of a dB out of things.
 
 
Other thoughts:
 
1. Setting the attack and release to "default" doesn't make sense for a test like this. Attack should always have been set as fast as allowable.
 
2. As far as I can tell, the color coding is completely arbitrary.
 
3. If modern DAC's can't handle "yellow" (and thus supposedly unacceptable) +.6 dBFS peaks, there is a much bigger problem. 
 
4. Lossy compression encoding is done in floating point, so clipping is effectively impossible in the encoder and lossy formats themselves. If any clipping occurs it thus has to happen when the decoder convert it back into PCM. And higher frequency content generally causes greater intersample peaks, but the highest frequencies are generally filtered out early in the lossy compression process. 
 
5. If you are doing a technical analysis and getting different results when metering with different meters, you need to figure out what various meters are actually reporting. Especially if you want to claim you are measuring "TRUE PEAK".
 
6. Clipping causes distortion. So does aggressive limiting. Making a judgment on using a product based the former while ignoring the latter doesn't make any sense to me.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Re: How well do well known brickwall limiters handle ISPs? 2017/07/01 19:42:10 (permalink)
mister happy
Inter Sample Peaking only happens, by its very explicit definition, at one half the sampling frequency. In other words, an Inter Sample Peak in a 44.1kHz data stream can only occur as a blip lasting 1/22500 seconds.
 
No one can actually hear a 1/22500 second blip.
 
If the digital over lasts ANY longer than 1/22500 seconds in a 44.1kHz data stream it is, by its very definition, no longer an Inter Sample Peak; it is an "OVER".
 
Inter Sample Peaks may have been an audible problem on ancient 8kHz phone lines. With contemporary digital audio production, the periodic re-discovery of Inter Sample Peaking as a unrecognized problem seems most likely to broil the groins of *engineers* that don't like math.
 

I fear you may have misinterpreted something you've read. Two facts are unclear from your description:
    1. Intersample peaks don't exist in digital audio
    2. Overs and ISPs are not directly related to one another
 
But you're right about ISPs not necessarily being a problem - if the amplifier has enough headroom to handle them. Unfortunately, battery-operated players often don't have much headroom and that's why we'd rather avoid ISPs.
 
You're also correct in saying that an ISP of 0.01 ms in duration is not going to be audible. However, you can't assume that an ISP exists for only a single cycle. In practice, a badly-mastered mix is likely to have thousands of ISPs per second, perhaps persisting throughout the entire song. That can definitely be audible on an iPod.
 
"Overs" are a different animal altogether. Technically, they don't exist either. Digital audio is incapable of exceeding all-ones, so there is nothing "over" that. 0dB is the absolute maximum. It's a completely legitimate value; we only use the word "over" when there are a consecutive series of 0dB values. There is no universal standard, but 12 in a row is a number employed by some meters. As you say, a blip that short is unlikely to be audible. But I have reviewed bad mixes with hundreds or even thousands of consecutive 0dB samples, and that's a clearly audible mistake that can't be blamed solely on a faulty limiter.
 
Overs are a much bigger problem than ISPs, because unlike ISPs they result in inharmonic distortion that has a much lower threshold of audibility than the harmonic distortion caused by ISPs. Why then, the emphasis on "true peak" ISP detection? Convenience, mostly. Well, there are two reasons. First, whenever the "true" peak value exceeds 0dB, it may suggest that the levels are generally too hot and therefore digital clipping may have also occurred. Second, it opens the possibility of analog clipping later on.
 
Still, an engineer who relies entirely on true peak values while ignoring overs is just being negligent.
 
You're on the right track being suspicious of these limiter tests. They suggest that if a limiter doesn't set the maximum after-conversion peaks to precisely the requested level, that means they are deficient and perhaps unusable. But that's rarely relevant. If I set my limit to -1.0 dBTP and the limiter gives me -0.3 dBTP, that's not going to have any impact on the subjective quality of my master.  To further complicate things, the limiter may have done a fine job, dutifully limiting my true peaks to <= 0dB, and I my end user could still end up with ISPs after decoding a lossy codec.
 
All that said, I'm still glad that the two limiters I use most are unassailably accurate.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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drewfx1
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Re: How well do well known brickwall limiters handle ISPs? 2017/07/01 20:47:04 (permalink)
bitflipper
All that said, I'm still glad that the two limiters I use most are unassailably accurate.




But what if by being "more accurate" they in fact end up adding more distortion? 

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Re: How well do well known brickwall limiters handle ISPs? 2017/07/01 22:42:38 (permalink)
I think it's a weird thing that UAD Precision Limiter doesn't do oversampling. However it does do, two different look-ahead modes which are selected using A/B switching. You can really push Sonnox Limiter hard and it's doesn't really distort the sound. The whole point of the premix stage before it reaches the enhancer section is it uses internal compression before sending it into that stage of the process. It actually does quite a lot of things. 
 
I'm not 100% sure how they came at these figures and what null test they used exactly. Not being an audio engineer I will take their word for it.

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Re: How well do well known brickwall limiters handle ISPs? 2017/07/01 22:47:06 (permalink)
Another thing is why do people insist on using s**** lossy formats as they test ground. Sure I listen to Multimedia formats, 256K+ and FLAC typically.
 
 

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The Maillard Reaction
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. 2017/07/01 22:55:10 (permalink)
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post edited by mister happy - 2017/07/04 11:10:06


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The Maillard Reaction
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. 2017/07/02 00:05:02 (permalink)
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post edited by mister happy - 2017/07/04 11:10:22


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backwoods
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Re: How well do well known brickwall limiters handle ISPs? 2017/07/02 00:11:32 (permalink)
i think my tc electronic meter might have a different measuring system as every limiter i have- sonnox, ozone, psp are measured at 0.1 dbfs "true peak max" . the new sonnox limiter is pretty cool to watch because it details the isps as it works and gives their level. the meters on the limiters themselves all show 0.0
 
tc electronic have their own limiter but it's a bit different. you drag your file onto the app and it looks over the file and adjusts accordingly. would b interesting to own that to see if it conforms to the tc electronic standards. 
 
makes sense all the limiters show different readings on the same material when they were perhaps calibrated to different meters during coding. can probably guess that the voxengo guy also tests with ozone metering as elephant came out to -1 exactly

 
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Re: How well do well known brickwall limiters handle ISPs? 2017/07/02 00:23:40 (permalink)
You have to be hitting around 7dB RMS before you are heading over true peak values. I mean some recordings I have are +3.2dB true peak whilst the LU level sits around 8 8 or 9. Anything after 0dB will be basically amplified or distorted unless coloured by the limiter as far I am aware.

I have computer stuff.
 
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drewfx1
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Re: How well do well known brickwall limiters handle ISPs? 2017/07/02 02:46:31 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mister happy 2017/07/02 12:38:02
mister happy 
After, all the only way to constrain an inter sample peak is to modify the relationship between the samples before and after it. How do you arbitrarily modify sample values with varied rates of scaling and maintain a concept of accuracy? It seems like a compromise is inherent to the process.
  



Which is why I pointed out above that "more accurate" likely means "more distortion" in practice - basically you are just setting the threshold a little lower and perhaps even deliberately distorting a whole series of samples just to address an isolated peak that wouldn't be audible on it's own.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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The Maillard Reaction
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. 2017/07/02 16:08:45 (permalink)
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post edited by mister happy - 2017/07/04 11:10:36


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