Hyper-real pianos good or bad? And why?

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ASG
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2013/09/06 23:33:30 (permalink)

Hyper-real pianos good or bad? And why?

Ive grown to love romplers alot this past year. Personally I have never been more impressed by sampled piano than I am of the nord piano 2. But recently in several discussions about the nord and other romplers, I'd seen a few people comment that they are not fans of "hyper-realistic" piano (sampled instruments in general I suppose), but do not mention why. I've had several people tell me that over the years and i don't understand because I thought the goal was to achieve the highest fidelity of sound as possible in your projects. I'm just curious in what context musically would it be better to work with samples that are anything less than as realistic as possible? Speaking about acoustic instruments of course. Could it be that an over realistic piano track could dumb down the rest of the mix of something?
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    doncolga
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    Re: Hyper-real pianos good or bad? And why? 2013/09/07 00:39:47 (permalink)
    I've used Kurzweils for years and Ivory and True Pianos VST's and that's never crossed my mind...maybe I under analyze.  I just don't sweat it anymore.  To me, if the piano sound is in the ballpark, which all the ones that have been brought up certainly are, I don't think anyone is going to tune out of a song because they perceive something peculiar about it...especially being too real.  That is an interesting notion though.

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    doncolga
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    Re: Hyper-real pianos good or bad? And why? 2013/09/07 00:40:04 (permalink)
    I've used Kurzweils for years and Ivory and True Pianos VST's and that's never crossed my mind...maybe I under analyze.  I just don't sweat it anymore.  To me, if the piano sound is in the ballpark, which all the ones that have been brought up certainly are, I don't think anyone is going to tune out of a song because they perceive something peculiar about it...especially being too real.  That is an interesting notion though.

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    ASG
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    Re: Hyper-real pianos good or bad? And why? 2013/09/07 02:33:40 (permalink)
    Thanks for the response. More power to you man I've definitely turned into a "paralysis by analysis" type of guy. Wish I was more like you, at that point where you stop over thinking it. I agree with you about how no one will tune out of a song for not being completely perfect but I suppose its more of a personal accountability thing. I mean when I come up with an awesome piano piece while using addictive keys or another vst I just think about how much more epic it would sound on a nord with all that circuitry to beef it up. I'm sure that's not healthy but that's just the way I think, get it right the first time you know? Do you use any hardware to beef up your vst tracks? I know ivory pianos pretty kick ass but I personally feel like most vsts need some fullness and color before the end of things (lol like I said I over analyze)
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    bitflipper
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    Re: Hyper-real pianos good or bad? And why? 2013/09/07 10:59:36 (permalink)
    I've got some great uber-realistic sampled pianos that are great for ballads and classical stuff. But if the tune's a rocker and the piano needs to cut through and provide rhythm, then I fall back to a rompler, either a Yamaha MO8 or Kurzweil PC2. Both deliver nice sounds, but they're primitive: only 3 velocity layers, no pedal noises or sympathetic vibrations like the huge libraries. And it's exactly what you want for an up-tempo rock 'n roll tune. The closest thing I've found so far in a Kontakt instrument is Sampletekk's Vertikal Pop close-miked piano.


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    DeeringAmps
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    Re: Hyper-real pianos good or bad? And why? 2013/09/07 13:21:15 (permalink)
    The TTS-1 works fine for me in a "busy" rock mix.
    But I'm a guitar player, not a pianist.
    just my nickel98...
     
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    ASG
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    Re: Hyper-real pianos good or bad? And why? 2013/09/07 20:39:27 (permalink)
    I see, so you choose differently quality samples depending on the type of music? Never really thought of that. but hey i only work with several genres. I like to use the TTS cause of the multi timbral functionality but the sounds are only a small cut above the typical general midi to me. Thin sounding IMO.
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    doncolga
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    Re: Hyper-real pianos good or bad? And why? 2013/09/07 21:02:07 (permalink)
    ASG
    Thanks for the response. More power to you man I've definitely turned into a "paralysis by analysis" type of guy. Wish I was more like you, at that point where you stop over thinking it. I agree with you about how no one will tune out of a song for not being completely perfect but I suppose its more of a personal accountability thing. I mean when I come up with an awesome piano piece while using addictive keys or another vst I just think about how much more epic it would sound on a nord with all that circuitry to beef it up. I'm sure that's not healthy but that's just the way I think, get it right the first time you know? Do you use any hardware to beef up your vst tracks? I know ivory pianos pretty kick ass but I personally feel like most vsts need some fullness and color before the end of things (lol like I said I over analyze)



    I used to be paralysis by analysis as you've mentioned and I never got anything done or accomplished for years.  I wanted it perfect.  There's a never ending list of things you could try to make it better from any standpoint of the process.  And of course you should work at it to make it the very best you can.  Every element could probably always be changed in an effort to make it better.  Art is potentially never done.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I never expect to get it right or best the first time.  It's certainly possible, just rare, and I don't expect that of myself.
     
    Regarding the piano, I've not experimented with them together...always hardware or VST.

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    ASG
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    Re: Hyper-real pianos good or bad? And why? 2013/09/08 14:15:39 (permalink)
    Thanks doncolga, what did you change to help you stop over analyzing?
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    doncolga
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    Re: Hyper-real pianos good or bad? And why? 2013/09/08 17:21:43 (permalink)
    ASG
    Thanks doncolga, what did you change to help you stop over analyzing?



    I had a lady once about three years ago who was very persistent with me over the course of weeks for a CD of my stuff.  I kept putting her off because it didn't sound like a major label release.  To keep from being rude, I finally had to get her a CD, so I listened through my stuff (after not hearing it for a little while), and I liked it...it sounded good and I was happy with it.  Of course it wasn't perfect, but it was still good.  No concern of panning, eq, compression, the right words or melody...none of that.  I just listened, I liked it and I was happy.  That's the point I loosened up.  I don't think about stuff too much either.  If I have chords or a melody I put it down asap, go with it and don't mess with it too much.  That's been working for me and I really enjoy the process now.  I've also stopped with all the loudness war mess and aim for early 90's mixes as a sound and level to shoot for.
     
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    post edited by doncolga - 2013/09/09 08:04:46

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    bitflipper
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    Re: Hyper-real pianos good or bad? And why? 2013/09/09 13:46:02 (permalink)
    It's all about context. Except for solo piano, you'll almost never use either the full spectrum or the full dynamic range of the instrument. In rock/pop mixes, it's common practice to severely thin out and compress the piano. If you don't, it'll step on just about everything else in the mix. So while the TTS-1's piano isn't very convincing in solo, there are times when it'll serve just fine within the context of a mix.


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    wizard71
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    Re: Hyper-real pianos good or bad? And why? 2013/09/09 14:30:48 (permalink)
    I'm a piano player (not that that matters much) and Bit has hit the nail directly on the head here. Anything with an 88 note range needs reigning in for obvious reasons. Also to be considered here is the piano arrangement within the song which can make a huge difference in terms of the type of sound needed for best effect.

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re: Hyper-real pianos good or bad? And why? 2013/09/09 15:30:43 (permalink)
    My thoughts are similar.... for me, most of the piano's I have will work. Most are sampled..... Kontakt and Cakewalk's Steinberg collection for the most part.
     
    On a solo piano and voice song, the piano sample needs to be anywhere from good to top quality. If there are other things in the mix, the piano really doesn't need to shine quite so much. And even on a vox/piano mix, a decent quality sample will work just fine. You don't always need a Carnegie Hall level piano sample.
     
    Depending on the song and the singer and the desired effect you are going for, the piano and even be pretty cruddy and still have a slamming song out of it. Have you listened to some of the music on commercials on TV recently?

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    Rbh
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    Re: Hyper-real pianos good or bad? And why? 2013/09/17 00:37:20 (permalink)
    I use Yellow Tools Piano almost exclusively. It's a pretty simple full range piano - yet they default with it using an incredible velocity to filter modifier. The filter is set to about 300 hz no less. Play it in the lower to middle velocity range and it's really dark. You can hear the felts hitting the strings - and it's perfectly smooth sounding and great for jazz and adult contemp. If you set the filter up a little bit around 500 hz it sounds extremely smooth and full range and gets a nice bite when you hit upper middle to high velocities. I tried to mimic this in Kontakt with NI Akoustik piano and couldn't get close. It's very dynamic and I've yet to find a better piano sound. I've used Kurzweils for years as well and this just blows it away in my opinion.

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