Helpful ReplyI don't want to buy every plug in...

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schwa
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2016/03/22 00:16:11 (permalink)

I don't want to buy every plug in...

I recently upgraded to Sonar Platinum, and there's a long list of plug ins that come with it.  Some are current, some are a bit long in the tooth. 
 
Since I am coming back to SONAR after some years away, I am wondering about a good plug in set.  I have some old VST's that I haven't loaded yet because perhaps newer plugs are superior.
 
So here's the question/challenge. 
 
What are your "go to" Cakewalk plug ins?  Do they compare well with 3rd party options?
What 3rd party plug ins compliment the Cake offerings?  Please suggest only those that work without added hardware (no UA, etc.)   
 
It seems that Cake has compressors and EQ's handled well, but what about other FX?
#1
AT
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 00:58:55 (permalink)
The Pro channel stuff is really good.  The ProChannel EQ is all you really need for most EQ jobs.  The 1176 comp is good, while the SSL buss comp is excellent.  Both come standard w/ pro.  The CA2A or whatever they call their optical comp is excellent too - as good as they come for software emus.
 
Breeverb is the best algorithmic reverb SONAR has ever offered, while REmatrix is better than Perfect Space.  If you can swing the full REmatrix during one of their sales, that is a great reverb unit.
 
Effects are mostly sonitus, which are nice, but there are some real winners in the Nomad Audio collection of FX like the oil can echo etc.

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#2
plentius
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 02:26:05 (permalink)
I'm also just returning to Sonar 7 after many years and found that my plugins are missing.  In particular I'm looking for a good reverb plugin.  I thought those came with Cakewalk.  So where can I find those?
 
#3
BenMMusTech
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 02:30:03 (permalink)
For vocals, and I've only recently just worked this out, the VC-64 channel strip, which is long in the tooth...but is really good.  I think it's an Avalon emulator.  I'm not sure if it's part of the current set, but I still have it from Sonar 6 I think.  But because it's really slow, you can slam vocals.
 
At the moment for EQ's I use 4 types.  I use Waves Helios for acoustic guitars, drums, bass, electronic instruments...almost everything in a mix.  I also have Waves Pultec, which I use in a mix for a different flavour, or for instruments not recorded very well.  I use it mainly on buss's, drums after compression, effects, verbs.  It's really great.  At some point I will get some Abbey Road stuff as well.  For mastering and everything else, the Pro Channel EQ is the bomb.  For mastering, set the EQ curve to pure, this is the mastering setting, and it just works.  I use the Pro Channel EQ in a mix these days for non-consequential tracks too.
 
Compression, I use Waves Fairchild, for drums, bass, guitars.  Great compressor.  I also have H-Comp by Waves which is my mastering compressor these days.  I use the Pro Channel buss compressor for a bit of limiting, and for a different flavour.  Same with the Pro Channel mix compressor.
 
For time based effects, I use Waves Doubler for double tracking, Guitar Rig 4 for most of my delays, and guitar amp stuff.  Perfect Space, and the Pro Channel Verbs, although I will have update these at some point.
 
Finally, I really love the Pro Channel Tape and Console emulator...rather than reach for a compressor for bass and drums...try using this combination.  I also have Waves Kramer Master Tape, which I use on masters.
 
Oh and finally Pro Channel Concrete Limiter, if you know how to use it...is the bomb.
 
Cheers Ben 

Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
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#4
jpetersen
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 02:47:16 (permalink)
The supplied synths and samplers are good and will serve well once they have been studied and understood. DimPro as a sample player and Session Drummer 3 both are based on the sfz format and you can put together any sounds you like with them. 
 
I have the NI FM8 for DX7 sounds.
 
The Concrete Limiter is very good, I got it when it was offered in a deal.
 
For mastering I have sprung for Ozone 7. Still have to learn how to use it properly.
 
Only in the reverb department have I never found any plug I like. I still use my outboard gear for that.
#5
Sanderxpander
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 03:11:05 (permalink)
I think the question is a bit too broad. There are many plug-ins I "go to" when I need them, but you may not need them to begin with or you may be happy with the Cake offerings. For example I use a bunch of different amp sims rather than TH2, FabFilter Pro Q2 rather than the QuadCurve EQ and Waves H-Delay rather than the Sonitus one. Is there anything more specific you feel you are missing, or want to "upgrade"? 
#6
Sycraft
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 04:34:49 (permalink)
Wait, what? You don't want to buy every plugin? What's wrong with you! That's the fun of pro audio: Spending all your money buying new toys that do the same thing as the toys you already have.
 
:D
 
In all seriousness, what plugins do I use that are non-Cakewalk? Bearing in mind that I am just a hobbyist, not a pro and never have been or will be:
 
--IK Stealth Limiter. Best loudness maximizer EVAR. It really does seem to just make things louder, not change the tonal quality at all. I've tried a lot of limiters, and it is by far my favourite.
 
--Waves IR-1/IR-L. I'm a fan of real space reverbs and I'm not that happy with what comes with Sonar. Waves has a large collection of good impulses and their stuff is fairly easy to use. Over all I likes. If you want to get it note that they see to put it on sale about 10 times a year (seriously) so maybe wait for that.
 
--Eventide Ultrachannel. I got this for free, they were offering it for nothing, you just had to ask, for a time so I said why not. Turns out to be quite useful. It is a bunch of plugins in one, nothing stellar, but has good presets and I'm not skilled so being able to pick a preset for a given thing is useful. That said there's no way I'd buy it for the asking price of $250. I figured since they were giving it away it would be something cheap but it is really pricey. It's an EQ, two kinds of compressor, delays, and transformer emulator.
 
--Melda Spectral Dynamics. A "sound goodizer". It is actually a stupidly powerful massively multi-band dynamic compressor, but I am not nearly smart enough to actually do much with it. However, putting it on a final mix and messing with a couple of parameters I find it can improve sound detail with very little effort. Bitflipper on this forum wrote a good article about using it that I can't find right now.
 
--Dirac Live. Not sure if this really counts, since it isn't a plugin and I'm not actually running it on my computer, but on outboard hardware (you can get it for your computer though) but it is what I use to correct my speakers/room. It is far and away the best room correction I've ever encountered and just sounds amazing. Much better than Audyssey (which is the technology in IK's ARC). You can get it as a host based program from Dirac themselves, or as outboard hardware from MiniDSP, Emotiva or Datasat. It's expensive as all getout though.
#7
Vastman
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 05:34:11 (permalink)
Cakes pro-channel is great... all the modules are worth it.
I have over 600 plugs...so ... my go to, beyond prochannel?
FabFilter timeless 2 delay (I have a couple dozen but this is generally IT)
Ozone 7 advanced... heck, just get the production bundle all awesome stuff 
FabFilter pro-Q2 and their deesser (Actually, I have all mix/master/effect FF stuff and I love it all
EWQL's Spaces (sure, I have full re-matrix and Bre-verb and a dozen or two others but... Space's just works)
IK's Stealth Limiter (sure, I have Fabs and a zillion others but, at the end of the line...when I'm not just printing for transfer to Ozone,  Stealth is wealth) I have virtually all IK T-Racks and it's gathering dust also...
 
If I could recover the funds spent on all others, I would do it in a sec... heck, 25c on the dollar... or less! I'd be RICH for awhile!

Dana
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#8
tenfoot
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 05:48:56 (permalink)
Pro channel modules are good - I use the EQ most of the time. If you have Platinum Breverb Cakewalk is included. With a little tweaking it is a nice, usable reverb. Third party wise I am a big fan of the fabfilter bundle, Waves SSL compressors and the Lexicon pcm native reverbs, though all three are pricey. Valhalla dsp reverbs are great value for a more budget alternative.

Bruce.
 
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#9
Zargg
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 07:29:22 (permalink)
Hi. I mainly use ProChannel as my go to plugins, even though I have some Waves and UAD plugins. For delay, I use the VocalStrip or the PercussionStrip most of the time. I think both Breverb and ReMatrix are good. 
All the best.

Ken Nilsen
Zargg
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#10
dcumpian
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 08:13:42 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2016/03/22 09:37:44
I'd recommend using only what comes with Sonar until such time as you find yourself limited by them. Unless you are a superb mix engineer, it'll take several years before you have learned enough to try a technique that the supplied plugins cannot do.
 
These plugins, while maybe not well matched as a complete set, are still excellent and will do what they are supposed to do.
 
Regards,
Dan

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#11
gswitz
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 08:34:21 (permalink)
Microphones have helped me more than plugins.

I have learned using a fairly wide array of plugins, but constrained to just what sonar has, I can still do a fairly nice job.

For example, someone mentioned MSpectralDynamics. This is a very cool plugin, but if you lower the threshold of cakewalk Multiband compressor and use a very low ratio... maybe stack two with different crossovers, thresholds... you can get a very similar effect.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#12
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 08:56:54 (permalink)
The only non-Cakewalk plugins I use are BFD and my T-Racks singles.

CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughout
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#13
tlw
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 09:31:11 (permalink)
Some of the oldest Sonar plugins are still pretty good compared with the competiition.

The old Cakewalk phaser plugin is excellent. Sonnitus modulation fx and compression are fine. The pro-channel compressors and eq are excellent and a match for any provided with any DAW and pretty much any third party offering unless you want the feel of a specific compressor or eq Sonar doesn't have. They're optional extras, but the CA-2A and Concrete Limiter are very good.

The Nomad plugins that come with Platinum are mostly good, though very badly documented (if at all).

I tend to use third party plugins to fill gaps or for a specific effect rather than replace a Cakewalk provided plug. For example, Waves' multiband side-chainable compressor, Reel ADT, the quirky Abbey Road consoles, BozDigital's delay, Valhalla reverbs, Melda auto-panner, SPAN and tremolo.

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Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
#14
dwardzala
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 09:36:58 (permalink)
I actually use the Blue Tubes stuff as my go to's except for the Pro Channel EQ.  I figure that if I can learn to use all of the plug ins supplied by Cake in Platinum, I will actually be prepared to take advantage of the "better" third party modules that I might have to buy.

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#15
AT
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 09:53:45 (permalink)
Oh, and for reverb Eventide still has their Black Hole reverb, which is what reverb should be if you are doing more electronic music.  I even put it on an acoustic guitar/vox song and it had depth forever.  Not natural, but very good.

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there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
#16
Kamikaze
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 10:12:44 (permalink)
MY laptop being repaired at the moment, so I can't check, but I believe there is a manual for the Nomad stuff. II can't recall where the link is, it may be hidden in the GUI. I seem to recall it being mentioned once and few people being surprised it was there all along.
EDIT
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3009988
Klaus
The manual is included in the Windows - VST Installer.zip file,
download from here:
http://www.nomadfactory.com/downloads/index.html
 
 
Best,
Klaus


CWBRN-24837
post edited by Kamikaze - 2016/03/22 13:01:09

 
#17
Anderton
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 12:31:58 (permalink)
dcumpian
I'd recommend using only what comes with Sonar until such time as you find yourself limited by them. Unless you are a superb mix engineer, it'll take several years before you have learned enough to try a technique that the supplied plugins cannot do.



SONAR Platinum has a very comprehensive set of plug-ins. The one plug-in that SONAR does not have is a multiband maximizing limiter, like the Waves L series or Ozone's Maximizer. However the LP-64 Multiband Compressor is excellent, so a decent workaround is to use the LP-64 to do most of the heavy lifting, then following that with the Concrete Limiter to cut any peaks down to size.
 
I particularly like dcumpian's advice because a) you'll find the SONAR plug-ins do what you need, and b) it will become obvious if you need something that's not included, so you can focus on that and won't spend lots of time auditioning plug-ins you'll never use.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#18
Dave76
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 15:05:03 (permalink)
dcumpian
I'd recommend using only what comes with Sonar until such time as you find yourself limited by them. Unless you are a superb mix engineer, it'll take several years before you have learned enough to try a technique that the supplied plugins cannot do.
 

I completely agree with this.  The Sonitus bundle is long in the tooth but still a solid workhorse and, if you are new, a great way to learn since the controls are pretty straightforward compared to some "vintage" style plug-ins.  The Nomad Factory plug-ins add some nice variety and character.  The remainder of the included VSTs, the ProChannel and also the included virtual instruments are all nice as well.  There is more than enough to keep you busy for a long long time.
 
The plug-in world can quickly become an endless pit of time and money.  Finding, reading about, downloading, installing, evaluating, buying, shopping for deals, dealing with licensing, learning, mastering, reinstalling/re-licensing/re-scanning because stuff broke, blah blah blah.  It can be fun and there are lots of great plug-ins out there but I'd advise avoiding it for as long as you can.  
 
If you do get bored with the built-in ones and feel like exploring, there are freebies from Melda, GVST, Voxengo, Blue Cats, etc. that are excellent and fill in some gaps and are mainstays for a lot of us even if we do have a ton of paid plug-ins as well.  
 
#19
lawajava
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 21:08:54 (permalink)
schwa
I recently upgraded to Sonar Platinum, and there's a long list of plug ins that come with it.  Some are current, some are a bit long in the tooth.
 
So here's the question/challenge. 
 
What 3rd party plug ins compliment the Cake offerings?  Please suggest only those that work without added hardware (no UA, etc.)  


In line with your topic I would heartily recommend that you go out of your way never to visit the Software or Deals section in this forum.

if you do venture there all hope for you may be lost. You might get bitten - and end up a third party plug-in buying mindless zombie like many of us. I'm one of those. Also take particular care not to read posts by regular posters in the Deals forum who are crafty at luring you in to the GAS trap.

Two internal 2TB SSDs laptop stuffed with Larry's deals and awesome tools. Studio One is the cat's meow as a DAW now that I've migrated off of Sonar. Using BandLab Cakewalk just to grab old files when migrating songs.
#20
Anderton
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 21:11:30 (permalink)
Dave76
The Sonitus bundle is long in the tooth



I prefer to think of them as "vintage." Actually I use the Sonitus effects a lot.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#21
schwa
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 22:12:11 (permalink)
Thanks to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts and advice.
 
For some background, I would put myself in the "experienced hobbyist" category.  I think I got my first copy of Cakewalk version 8, when it was just called cakewalk around 2000.  How things have changed since then - my (then top of the line) 450 MHz pc would break out in a sweat under the load of just a few channels of audio.  I actually purchased the Sonitus plugs somewhere along the line.
 
I have a new, powerful PC, some good hardware (mics, pres, MOTU interface, M-One XL verb, XP synth), I got Platinum and sprung for Rapture Pro and got the ProChannel Pack on St Paddy's day.  I'm excited to see that Cake will be updating the Mastering EQ and Multi Comp soon.  I purchased the waves Gold bundle years ago and am thinking about updating.  The music I would like to record is guitar/vocal oriented, from folk to rock.
 
I've been down the plug in rabbit hole, and started this thread to avoid that if possible.  I think the current toolkit in Platinum is very good, but also wanted to find out of anything is missing, if there is anything. 
It seems that alot of folks like ProChannel, I'll start from there. (this was actually my plan)
Maybe Sonitus is old, and looks a little rough, I'll try to appreciate their utility. 
I've read mixed reviews on the BlueTube stuff, I'll give them a whirl. 
 
I'm going to try to stick with what Cake provides, but have already broken my rule with the ProChannel pack.  If I add anything, I'm hoping it will be a well considered decision.
#22
Anderton
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/22 22:25:25 (permalink)
schwa
Maybe Sonitus is old, and looks a little rough, I'll try to appreciate their utility.



If you really want to appreciate their utility, use them for several months, then go cold turkey and try to reproduce what they do with other plug-ins. The Sonitus plugs got it right the first time. There are better reverbs now, but some of them are hard to beat with any modern plug-in. Check out the March eZine for yet another example of why Sonitus plug-ins rule.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#23
BenMMusTech
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/23 02:42:28 (permalink)
Anderton
schwa
Maybe Sonitus is old, and looks a little rough, I'll try to appreciate their utility.



If you really want to appreciate their utility, use them for several months, then go cold turkey and try to reproduce what they do with other plug-ins. The Sonitus plugs got it right the first time. There are better reverbs now, but some of them are hard to beat with any modern plug-in. Check out the March eZine for yet another example of why Sonitus plug-ins rule.




I agree, the Sonitus compressor and EQ are excellent because of the adaptability factor...being able to change the shape of the EQ or Compressor is really cool...and in particular the EQ can be used in a similar fashion to the Pro Channel.  I still use these two plugs in Vegas Video, for my video editing.
 
Peace Ben

Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
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#24
Vastman
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/23 02:53:17 (permalink)
Schwa... your approach is very sound... Get all the pro channel mods... all are high quality and extremely useful...If I had to start over, after that and could only spend  500$ beyond that (I've spent well over 15k...arrrrg) I'd just buy Omnisphere2... and spend time on the pluginguru's site watching his free instructional vids.
 
You can pretty much shake the world for a decade with a fully loaded platinum and Omnisphere...
 
Enjoy!  and avoid what we laughingly call "gas" around here...Stay away from the "Deals" forum... Gas attacks are hard to control. I'm in therapy trying to kick the addiction and use what I have, which is mindblowing enough!
 
 

Dana
We make the future... Climate Change Music
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#25
MarioD
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/23 09:48:45 (permalink)

The reason people say the vinyl sounds better is because the music was better.
 
Sonar Platinum, Intel i7 –2600 CPU @ 3.2 GHz, 16 GB ram, 2x2TB internal drives and 1 1TB internal drive, Radeon HD 5570 video card, HP 25" monitor,
Roland Octa Capture, MOTU Midi Express 128, Win 10 Pro

 
www.soundcloud.com/Mario_Guitar
#26
Sanderxpander
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/23 13:30:20 (permalink)
Cool article. Although to be honest if you listen to the average Will.I.Am track it does sound super plastic. I guess that has more to do with the choice of synths and fx though - I wonder what would happen if they both got the same stems. I don't think winning a Grammy is the be all and end all of "good quality production". Although I'd sure love to get one :)
#27
mettelus
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/23 13:43:42 (permalink)
That article is good. Although a lot also comes down to preference in work flow, a tool is only as good as the proficiency of the user. Give a master an old tool and they can scrape every ounce of use from it; give a novice a new tool and, well...

The comment on "sweet spot" I am a firm believer in regarding plugins.

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#28
Sacalait
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/24 08:14:55 (permalink)
In Sonar Platinum I'm always using the Pro Channel EQ.  It does the gig and having the spectrum analyzer is great for finding trouble.  The Buss compressor (PK, something...) is great too!  I also REALLY like the CA2A and use it more than any other compressor I have- including the WAVES V Comp (Neve emulation) that I have.  Next would be the Lexicon Reverb that came bundled with Sonar a few years back.  I own the Oxford Reverb (which I spent a couple hundred US bucks on) but find myself going the the Lexicon a bit more.  (No love for the BreVerb plugin that came with Sonar a couple years back.  I find it much too bright almost always).  As for peak limiting on the master bus the best I've tried is the WAVES L2.  Of course all of this is YMMV.

www.pershingwells.com www.facebook.com/pershingwells
Sonar Platinum, PC- Intel i7-4770K w/16 Gig RAM Windows 8.1, Solid State Drive and eSATA drives, Mytek, RME UFX, RME Multiface II, Roland VS700,  A-Designs Pacifica, UA LA610, Presonus RC500. A-Designs Hammer EQ, DBX, AKG, Neumann, Roland, JBL, Fender, Gibson, G&L, Marshall, Korg, Martin, Shure, Electrovoice, Yamaha, Chameleon Labs comps.
#29
joel77
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Re: I don't want to buy every plug in... 2016/03/24 11:32:47 (permalink)
There's no reason any mixer can't get satisfactory results with what comes included in (or are available with) Sonar. The plugs I've added might give me different flavors or easier access to different flavors, but I don't find them essential to completing a mix.  
 
That said, I do have third party plugs that I use in every mix. I've just found plugs that work well with how I think, or hear or ...... something. lol
 
I believe it really comes down to learning what you have and then concentrating on recording/mixing/mastering, rather than being distracted by plugin choice.

Joel  Glaser
Studio 52     

God Bless America
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#30
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