sharke
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I have time sig confusion again
Can anyone tell me whether this track is in 3/4 time or 2/4 time? I can hear both.... PS it's mastered LOUD so you may want to adjust levels 
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dmbaer
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/20 13:31:56
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Based on the first 1:30 minutes or so, it's both, which is why you can hear both. The percussion is 2/4 and pretty much everything else sounds like it is 3/4.
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sharke
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/20 13:44:08
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Yeah I guess that's what's making me hear both....the kick is playing in 2/4 and the melodic elements are phrased in 3/4. I have these confusions when trying work out what time sig my own music is in all the time.
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vanblah
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/20 15:20:29
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To me it's 4/4. The pads are playing a pattern built mainly around dotted quarter notes. What I hear would be written as: dotted quarter, dotted quarter, half (or two tied quarters since it spans a measure), quarter, etc. : 
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Kev999
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/20 21:33:09
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I would say 6/4. All the phrases seem to repeat on a 6-beat cycle.
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quantumeffect
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/20 21:34:16
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If I was playing drums to this I could count it as 3 measures of 4/4 as illustrated by vanblah. But more than likely, I would count it in 6/4 to make it easy on myself. Look at the rhythm of the top line in vanblah's post ... It may not look like it on paper but the rhythm repeats itself after 6 beats (i.e., the tied 1/8th note and 1/4 note have the same value as the dotted quarter and the tied 1/4 notes have the same value as the 1/2 note).
post edited by quantumeffect - 2013/11/20 21:36:35
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quantumeffect
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/20 21:35:23
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sharke
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/21 02:09:19
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I must admit I'm having difficulty hearing anything other than 6/4 now. Although the kick has a strong 2/4 feel to my ears. I like this artist a lot, he's always playing with my head rhythm wise. Try this one for size, there's a neat poly-rhythm if you start it at 2:40.
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sharke
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/21 02:19:28
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And while we're on the subject, here's another one I can't wrap my head around. I really love the sound of it, but every time I try and work out what's going on meter wise, my brain stops working.
Another one which has always baffled me is Pyramid Song by Radiohead. A very beautiful composition, but I can never suss the rhythm.
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quantumeffect
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/21 02:47:40
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Wrt the 2/4 ... yes, I get that when you have a single kick and a single snare hit BUT ...
Counting in 2/4 is cumbersome and makes it difficult to keep track of where you are wrt the melody and I very rarely count in 2/4 (when I need to count). In addition to keeping time, it is kinda' a drummers responsibility to musically indicate the end of one phrase and the start of another (e.g., the crash cymbal on beat 1 one of the chorus).
If I need to count because a piece is unfamiliar, I will find a time signature scheme that leaves me in the right place at the right time.
Also, notation, time signature and what you do in your head may differ ... and what 2 musicians count when playing the same piece may differ.
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vanblah
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/21 10:06:45
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In the grand scheme of things time signature doesn't really matter as long as it all works out for you and anyone else playing with you. In larger orchestral arrangements it's helpful so that everybody can refer to the same places when the conductor says something like "let's pick up at measure 99". Since everyone is in the same time signature they are all in the correct place for measure 99.
The reason I lean toward 4/4 for that first song is because the kick/snare pattern is established before anything else and counting in multiples of four from the beginning of the track makes the synth pad land on the one when it starts. If you count in multiples of 6 then the pad starts on a 5. Then again that may have been the composers intention--or maybe that's not the very beginning of the song. I've been known to start songs in weird spots. It helps create tension.
The pattern in that first song is very similar to bossa nova--not exactly, but similar.
The bass player in my band tends to count things in weird ways--he'll hear 3/4 especially in patterns similar to what you presented. I will sometimes subdivide a beat in my head so that I don't go insane trying to count an eight or sixteenth note pattern. As long as it sounds good--it is good.
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sharke
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/21 10:22:38
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I guess it makes a difference if you're trying to arrange with something like Jamstix though. Although in that case, experimentation is the key.
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quantumeffect
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/21 11:48:08
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I too would probably count the intro in 4/4 but then, assuming I am playing it live and I have license to improvise or embellish, I would start counting in 6/4 (i.e., two measures of 6/4 versus three measures of 4/4). 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 5 & 6 & 1 & 2 & | 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & The advantage from a drummers perspective is the way the accents and fills would fall against the count going on inside my head. It might be easier to do a fill on counts 5 and 6 and crash on 1 ... than fill on 1 and 2 and crash on 3. From a book keeping point of view, it makes no difference but from a playing perspective it may make a difference to the individual player and as vanblah said:
In the grand scheme of things time signature doesn't really matter as long as it all works out for you and anyone else playing with you.
My funniest example of making up a count to fit is how I played the intro to Zep's Rock and Roll when I was a young man. I am not kidding you, I would literally count the number of beats between accents ... until later in life I understood it as nothing more than a Chuck Berry intro without the melody. 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 1 2 1 2 3 1 2 3 4& 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & The top line is the way I used to count it, and the bottom line is what is going on inside my head today (the listener would not be able to tell the difference). [ BOLD indicates accent]
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dmbaer
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/21 13:21:58
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sharke
Yeah I guess that's what's making me hear both....the kick is playing in 2/4 and the melodic elements are phrased in 3/4. I have these confusions when trying work out what time sig my own music is in all the time.
Those who have suggested the composit is 6/4 are probably correct ... that is, if you had to translate this to a printed score. Thinking just in terms of DAW "rendering", it's more logical to think of a repeating pattern (a groove clip if you like) that has the percussion pattern on one track and something completely unrelated time-sig-wise on the rest of the tracks. And that "groove clip" is definitely two measures of 2/4. In the context of 6/4, the percussion pattern is identical in the first, second and third portions of every 6/4 measure.
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rumleymusic
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/21 19:11:25
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If there had to be one time signature. It would have to be two-four. The six pattern loop comes in after 8 bars of two-four so the entrance would make no sense in this simplistic looping musical context.
More likely though, the "composer" just isn't very good and has no idea what pattern he/she intended. So take your pick. I vote for a time sig change 8 bars in to six-four.
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dmbaer
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/21 19:27:59
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rumleymusic
If there had to be one time signature. It would have to be two-four. The six pattern loop comes in after 8 bars of two-four How do you know the time sig isn't 6/4 with the first beat in the first measure measure starting on beat 3? 
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sharke
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/21 23:29:40
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rumleymusic
More likely though, the "composer" just isn't very good and has no idea what pattern he/she intended. So take your pick. I vote for a time sig change 8 bars in to six-four.
I wouldn't say that the composer isn't very good, it's just that he's probably like me and plays with stuff until it sounds good regardless of any considerations of correctness. He was in one of Future Music's "In The Studio With..." videos on YouTube not so long ago and he gave me that impression anyway. He seems like a bit of a scatterbrain....in the best possible way. I used to listen to a lot of folk music (English, Scottish, Irish) and it's very often all over the place time sig wise...like the old blues singers, they'll just throw in the occasional extra beat when they feel like, usually to fit the lyrics. I once heard folk guitarist Martin Carthy say that he considers a lot of his music to be in 1/1 time...i.e. just take it as it comes. And then of course there's Frank Zappa.
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Kev999
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/22 00:47:28
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dmbaer
rumleymusic
If there had to be one time signature. It would have to be two-four. The six pattern loop comes in after 8 bars of two-four
How do you know the time sig isn't 6/4 with the first beat in the first measure measure starting on beat 3?
Indeed. Also, an intro doesn't have to follow the same pattern as the rest of the song.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/22 05:44:11
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sharke
rumleymusic
More likely though, the "composer" just isn't very good and has no idea what pattern he/she intended. So take your pick. I vote for a time sig change 8 bars in to six-four.
I wouldn't say that the composer isn't very good, it's just that he's probably like me and plays with stuff until it sounds good regardless of any considerations of correctness. He was in one of Future Music's "In The Studio With..." videos on YouTube not so long ago and he gave me that impression anyway. He seems like a bit of a scatterbrain....in the best possible way.
I used to listen to a lot of folk music (English, Scottish, Irish) and it's very often all over the place time sig wise...like the old blues singers, they'll just throw in the occasional extra beat when they feel like, usually to fit the lyrics. I once heard folk guitarist Martin Carthy say that he considers a lot of his music to be in 1/1 time...i.e. just take it as it comes.
And then of course there's Frank Zappa.
Indeedy!!!
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bitflipper
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/22 10:07:16
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☄ Helpfulby John T 2013/11/25 19:31:04
"1/1 time"...I like that.
Funny how working within the constraints of a DAW's timeline trains you to think linearly. A group of musicians jamming don't ever think about what time signature they're in! Or often, even what key.
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sharke
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/22 10:42:07
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bitflipper
"1/1 time"...I like that.
Funny how working within the constraints of a DAW's timeline trains you to think linearly. A group of musicians jamming don't ever think about what time signature they're in! Or often, even what key.
Or like me, a lone guitarist who has improvised without giving music theory or structure a single thought for years. Since working in a DAW I have found it quite the challenge to start thinking about music in these terms. Even now I'll come up with something on the keyboard and then puzzle for hours about what time signature it's in.
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spacealf
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/22 14:06:00
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Count to 12, rinse and repeat. In other words it is 12/8ths time signature or 12/4 time signature probably 12/4ths time signature. But wiggle around when playing any instrument perhaps. 
post edited by spacealf - 2013/11/22 14:17:01
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/22 16:10:18
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If I was programming this on a computer I'd set it up as 12/8
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spacealf
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/22 16:23:38
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It's harder to get the beat at the beginning of the song till about half-way and later through the song. Then the 12 beats come out distinctly when it recycles in the song.
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rumleymusic
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/25 15:48:25
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I firmly believe the difference between a good composer or writer is deliberate actions, not guesswork. "Rules" are made to be broken by those who know the rules. Otherwise it is just ignorance (to loosely quote Schoenberg). Of course my own education and background makes me a little biased and stodgy in this regard. If the writer's deliberate intention was to completely throw off the listener by changing the time signature, I'd say he succeeded. If it was to create a smooth loop pattern without confusion, well, imho, he failed. How do you know the time sig isn't 6/4 with the first beat in the first measure measure starting on beat 3?  I know you're poking fun, but just in case someone takes it seriously: It wouldn't make sense musically to write it that way. The only reasons a piece of music typically starts on a pick up measure is to emphasize a dominant to tonic relationship or a similar melodic/rhythmic pickup. It would make no sense in a electronic loop context.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/25 17:55:11
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☄ Helpfulby John T 2013/11/25 19:32:05
Of course my own education and background makes me a little biased and stodgy in this regard.... It certainly does and it shows. There are many ways to compose. There is also very fine line between total improvisation and composition as well. That piece of music is very well organised and quite intentional. He has actually created a very smooth idea that features both a 3/4 time and 4/4 time juxtaposed at the same time and it works very well indeed. There was no guesswork involved in that.
I would create a session probably in 3/4 time. I think Bristol is partly right except the melody is really in 12/4 time. Or the melody is actually over 4 bars of 3/4 time. It is quite simple. Other parts like the bass riff etc are simply over 2 bars of 3/4 time.
As a drummer I would not be thinking of it all in either 3/4 or 6/4 time, wrong approach. I would be playing it in 4/4 as the composer intended BUT I would be aware of where the 3/4 time phrases are beginning and ending though. eg 3 bars of 4/4 time is where the melody starts over etc..
It happens in Jazz drumming. Sometimes when an ensemble gets into a real 3/4 thing I slip the drums into 4/4 Jazz time over the whole thing. It makes it all sound a little cooler and takes away a bit of the 3/4 feel. But you must still know where the tops of the choruses are though and where the various sections of the 3/4 time start and end so you can still phrase around that. Other times I actually play the ride and snare parts in 3 while keeping the hats in 4. That sounds nice but more subtle.
In this Lindstrom piece he has created quite a strong 4/4 time drum groove while the rest of it cruises in the odd time sig. Well done and it sounds good to me. Like it.
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Kev999
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/25 18:25:53
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I completely disagree with those who keep mentioning 3/4 here. The piece has a definite 4/4 feel, but with a pattern that repeats every 6 beats. Think of it as 4/4 with extra 2 beats in the bar.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/25 18:57:50
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I completely disagree with those who keep mentioning 3/4 here.... I don't agree with you there Kev. There are two sections in the music that shows this clearly. One in the middle where the 4/4 drum thing drops out completely. That is the clue. Listen there. There is nothing 4/4 with 2 extra beats about the music at that point. It is basically in 3 or 6. Also near the end you can hear quite clearly part of the music that has a definite 3/4 time to it. It is just an odd time thing 3/4 or 6/4 with a 4/4 groove over the top. Simple as that. Quite a common thing as I said happens in jazz situations all the time.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/11/25 19:11:37
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John T
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/25 19:34:44
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Lindstrom is a very smart guy, though by his own admission he knows very little formal music theory. But with regards to the point about intentionality, I have no doubt this is exactly as he meant it to be. He just likely wouldn't have the musical vocab to talk time signatures about it. I think it's very clever and interesting. You could argue that someone with more formal theory would struggle to come up with something like this, but that doesn't mean he's just cluelessly bashed it out.
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John T
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Re: I have time sig confusion again
2013/11/25 19:36:57
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The Lindstrom and Christabelle LP 'Real Life Is No Cool' is an amazing piece of production. Recalls Quincy Jones's Michael Jackson stuff. Check it out.
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