I love SONAR but not WINTEL

Why do you have to abandon a PC to get Thunderbolt? There seems to be DIY  PCIe solutions and a slow progress towards mobo manufactures buying in. My z97x came close but I guess they opted out at the last minute.  
http://www.anandtech.com/...-is-thunderbolt-headed   read this part :
 
In conclusion, Thunderbolt is making great progress and PC users can expect things to get better in the future. In addition to Apple, lots of other vendors are also throwing in support for Thunderbolt in their workstations and notebooks. It would have been great to have a new version of Thunderbolt with PCIe 3.0 along with the X99 launch. But, we already know it is not going to be the case till Skylake launches. That said, it will be a priority for Intel and Microsoft to get the performance and experience right with current silicon for now.

Apple paid Intel a wad of cash to have exclusive rights to Thunderbolt for a couple of years, locking every other manufacturer out of the technology.
 
You are blaming the wrong people for the slow and late uptake of Thunderbolt to the wider technology community.  If Thunderbolt had been available to the PC market from the start, it would be ubiquitous on all platforms by now.  In some ways, Apple shot themselves in the foot, as the uptake of Thunderbolt has been damaged by their aggressive business practices.  It's worth doing a bit of research before blackening the name of a company that wasn't at fault.

That statement is not accurate.  Microsoft has nothing to do with supporting Thunderbolt, that is up to the individual hardware vendors.  Most of the PC vendors have determined that Thunderbolt is not a consumer grade product, and that USB 3.0 has won out in that market.
 
That being said Thunderbolt ports are on EVERY HP Z series workstation, and laptop.  Other vendors like ASUS also support Thunderbolt.
 
The only vendor to my knowledge that has dropped it has been ACER.  This has nothing to do with Microsoft it has to do with the licensing fees that Intel requires for adding Thunderbolt, that are not there with USB 3.0 because, the USB standard is jointly owned by a commission with nearly all the hardware vendors.
 
Windows supported Thunderbolt from day 1.  There were TB drivers are fully supported in Windows 7 and Windows 8.
 

Sorry, I probably didn't describe the issue clear enough even though some of you got the point.... I have a TB motherboard and I use it with my UAD stuff however, it really is FW over TB since UAD hasn't released WINDOWS TB drivers.  
 
The reason they and other vendors haven't released TB drivers for their audio interfaces is that MS hasn't come up with one standard on how the OS will handle them... so until that happens, they don't want to invest in creating drivers that become a nightmare if MS changes how they are implemented within their OS.
 
My beef is partly with the OEM audio guys, but I understand their dilemma so I have been waiting for real TB supported UAD stuff for over 2 years now (I had a working TB system for over 2 years now and no drivers).
 
I was thinking of just getting a MAC PRO or something and running SONAR on windows if possible of just move to PT on a MAC.... looking for alternative ideas on how to run SONAR on a MAC PRO (if that is even possible)?
 
Thanks and sorry for the confusion,
Jim
 

jkleban
Sorry, I probably didn't describe the issue clear enough even though some of you got the point.... I have a TB motherboard and I use it with my UAD stuff however, it really is FW over TB since UAD hasn't released WINDOWS TB drivers.  
 
The reason they and other vendors haven't released TB drivers for their audio interfaces is that MS hasn't come up with one standard on how the OS will handle them... so until that happens, they don't want to invest in creating drivers that become a nightmare if MS changes how they are implemented within their OS.
 
My beef is partly with the OEM audio guys, but I understand their dilemma so I have been waiting for real TB supported UAD stuff for over 2 years now (I had a working TB system for over 2 years now and no drivers).
 
I was thinking of just getting a MAC PRO or something and running SONAR on windows if possible of just move to PT on a MAC.... looking for alternative ideas on how to run SONAR on a MAC PRO (if that is even possible)?
 
Thanks and sorry for the confusion,
Jim
 

 
Buy an HP Z820, it's cheaper than a Mac Pro and performance wise it blows it out of the water.  Plus it's fully upgradable and expandable.
 
http://www8.hp.com/us/en/campaigns/workstations/mac-to-z.html
 

DD,
 
You almost had me with the HP (got stoked when I saw the web page).... not really that much cheaper than a MAC PRO configured with the same Horse Power. But my issue is that MS has not developed low level standards for TB yet?  Is this part of the 2 year exclusivity or just slow handing?  Not sure, but UAD has announced the EXPANDED concept that only runs on TB2 on a MAC for now.... who knows how much longer it is going to be for a WIN driver for UAD.... hence my question to run SONAR on a MAC (if possible) and why I want out of the WINTEL world.
 
 

BRuys, it's even more complex than that.  What happened is Apple took Intel's design for Light Peak, which was an optical cable solution to extend PCIe, and Apple took it and figured out a way to convince Intel to package light peak with their crappy proprietary mini display port standard, and thus took a technology that was meant to be open to all hardware and gave us the next "firewire" headache, a proprietary implementation of Intel's design.
 
This is why they locked out the PC market, because they were able to package it with a cheaper copper solution that worked with their stupid mini-display port so you had to pay a licensing fee to Apple to use it.
 
Of course Apple has the music industry held by the onions so all of the vendors that were coming out with new Thunderbolt interfaces are doing them Apple exclusive because that's where the money is, for Thunderbolt.  Meanwhile 5Gbps USB 3.0 would be plenty fast and low latency enough to meet most of the demands of their customers and be able to offer it at a better price point, but they went for a niche market that is about to come tumbling down.
 

The reality is that current usb2.0 interfaces (can) have great latency and throughput.
 
TB is a solution for a problem that doesnt exist. 
 
 

Thunderbolt provides access to the PCIe bus.  That's it folks!
Nothing more... nothing less
 
With a PC tower/rack, we've got PCIe slots... so Thunderbolt offers no performance advantage.
With a new Mac Pro "Cylinder", there are no PCIe slots... so Thunderbolt is an absolute must.
 
We're at an awkward "in-between" moment.
Thunderbolt development for Mac is ahead of PC (for the moment)... out of complete necessity.
IMO, It was a dumb move for Apple to completely eliminate PCIe slots (without more time to transition).
Thunderbolt peripherals offer no performance advantage (compared to PCIe) and they're more expensive.
 
Thunderbolt is the current market buzz-word... with audio-interface ads touting huge bandwidth advantage vs. USB.
That's all fine and well... but most audio interfaces (including higher-end units from RME) are nowhere close to saturating the USB2 bus.
 
I personally don't want to see PCIe slots completely disappear in one-fell-swoop (a la Mac).
If you're going to eliminate a major bus protocol, it needs to be done SLOWLY (a la PCI slots).
 
IMO, The Thunderbolt situation has been handled poorly by all involved.

• Apple pushed the issue by eliminating PCIe slots on their new Mac Pro.
• MicroSoft is in "wait-and-see" mode.
• UA and MOTU are pushing new Thunderbolt audio interfaces... at a time when support for PC is lagging. Instead of offering top-notch USB2/3 performance (like RME), if you're a PC user, you take a performance hit.

200bpm
The reality is that current usb2.0 interfaces (can) have great latency and throughput.
 
TB is a solution for a problem that doesnt exist. 

+1000
 
Thunderbolt is essentially e-PCIe
A god-send for small form-factor machines (laptops, mini-ITX) that would otherwise not have access to the PCIe bus... but no real advantage with a tower/rack machine.
 

Jim Roseberry
Thunderbolt provides access to the PCIe bus.  That's it folks!
Nothing more... nothing less
 
With a PC tower/rack, we've got PCIe slots... so Thunderbolt offers no performance advantage.
With a new Mac Pro "Cylinder", there are no PCIe slots... so Thunderbolt is an absolute must.
 
We're at an awkward "in-between" moment.
Thunderbolt development for Mac is ahead of PC (for the moment)... out of complete necessity.
IMO, It was a dumb move for Apple to completely eliminate PCIe slots (without more time to transition).
Thunderbolt peripherals offer no performance advantage (compared to PCIe) and they're more expensive.
 
Thunderbolt is the current market buzz-word... with audio-interface ads touting huge bandwidth advantage vs. USB.
That's all fine and well... but most audio interfaces (including higher-end units from RME) are nowhere close to saturating the USB2 bus.
 
I personally don't want to see PCIe slots completely disappear in one-fell-swoop (a la Mac).
If you're going to eliminate a major bus protocol, it needs to be done SLOWLY (a la PCI slots).
 
IMO, The Thunderbolt situation has been handled poorly by all involved.

• Apple pushed the issue by eliminating PCIe slots on their new Mac Pro.
• MicroSoft is in "wait-and-see" mode.
• UA and MOTU are pushing new Thunderbolt audio interfaces... at a time when support for PC is lagging. Instead of offering top-notch USB2/3 performance (like RME), if you're a PC user, you take a performance hit.

PCIe will be around for a while and really Apple has no control over that.  The corporate enterprise market is really dependent of PCIe for other technologies like 32GB FibreChannel, 40GB Ethernet, etc. etc.  Thunderbolt 2 is at 20Gbps, but other technologies are already ahead of it speed wise, they just aren't used for audio.
 
Agreed that Apple tried to force the issue with the Mac Trash Bin Pro, and it's rather stupid to be honest.  HP who is the biggest competitor in big companies/studios against the Mac Pro, does include TB ports, but now it's looking like the AI vendors aren't playing ball with them.
 
In addition to UA and MOTU, FocusRite just introduced their new Clarette series interfaces (Mac Only).
 
Seeing that Gibson/TASCAM are now full in with Sonar, a PC only solution, they have a great opportunity to follow someone like RME with a USB 3.0 solution.
 
The one technology that is already speced for 100GBS performance that could compete with Thunderbolt and is already in the Audio space is Ethernet.  Audio over Ethernet is a well established protocol that is already out and working on 1Gbps Ethernet, and coudl easily be ported to 10Gbps Ethernet.  40G and 100G Ethernet are now too expensive for the consumer market, but 40G is really starting to ramp up in the corporate world so 10G should become cheaper.

Greeny
Start adding  vsti and vst and see which one brings your computer to its knees first, I'll bet you my last £££ its the usb one :)

 
FWIW, I have a "wee bit" of experience building/using DAWs... testing them under MANY different circumstances. That's what I've been doing for a living the past ~20 years. 
 
I've played many gigs as a keyboard player... running a RME USB audio interface at a 48-sample buffer size... with *very* substantial loads of virtual instruments (Kontakt, Omnisphere, Ivory-II, etc) hosted by both Forte' and Cantabile.  Absolutely 100% glitch-free.
 
We're not talking USB audio interfaces from the USB1.1 period (which were poor performers).
RME set the standard on what to expect from a USB2 audio interface.
Low round-trip latency... and absolutely rock-solid performance.
With a modern machine, you can run substantial loads (completely glitch-free) at very small ASIO buffer sizes.
 
I can post video if you really need to see it...   
 

Greeny
I am not saying you cant and the RME baby face is one of the "about 3" that I previously mentioned. But it cannot keep up with a PCI card so why pretend it can? also what's the rmes lowest latency? 4.4ms or so? at 48 buffer, a decent pci card can do half that at 64 buffers with less strain on the system and then you are able to run more vsti or fx etc on the same machine. I ain't here to argue just saying it as I see it. Don't need to see a video.
 
EDIT: Also worth noting that AFAIK the babyface has the best usb latency out there, and with few exceptions getting below 6ms without crazy sample rates with a usb interface is nigh on impossible which is not a lot of fun if you are a guitarist. So my point still stands that thunderbolt is a solution for a problem that DOES exsist since there are many people who neither want or need a babyface but have no choice but to buy one if they want both usb and low latency.

 
I'm not here to argue.  
I'm here to inform.
 
The RME Babyface (and their other USB audio interfaces) yields the following round-trip latency:
48-sample ASIO buffer size @ 44.1k = round-trip latency of 4.9ms
64-sample ASIO buffer size @ 44.1k = round-trip latency of 5.6ms
 
The best PCIe audio interfaces:
64-sample ASIO buffer size @ 44.1k = 5ms round-trip latency
 
That means the RME USB units are 0.6ms off from the best PCIe units available.
 
 
Most USB2 audio interfaces don't provide ASIO buffer sizes smaller than 48-samples.
 
The best PCIe units allow you to go down to a 32-sample ASIO buffer size (some even down to a 16-sample ASIO buffer size).  Of course, this yields lower round-trip latency... but you won't be able to run heavy loads.
Absolutely *no* PCIe audio interface yields round-trip latency of ~3ms using 64-sample ASIO buffer size @ 44.1k.
That's impossible... here's why:
Round-trip latency is the sum of the following:

• ASIO input buffer
• ASIO output buffer
• A/D & D/A converter
• The driver's hidden safety-buffer

 A 64-sample ASIO buffer size @ 44.1k = 1.5ms
That means just the ASIO input and output buffers alone are 3ms.
Add latency of the A/D D/A and the driver's hidden safety-buffer... and you're at 5ms.
 
There is no "pretending" or "fudging" the figures here... this is real-world performance.
If you think USB consumes significant amount of CPU (on a current generation machine), connect a USB2 or USB3 HD and run a benchmark that measures sustained thru-put and required CPU use to achieve it.
You'll find CPU use is negligible...   
 
Regarding Thunderbolt:
Currently on the PC, both UA and MOTU use Thunderbolt>Firewire (not a true PCIe driver).
Thus, you're really not reaping the "reward" of Thunderbolt.
Thunderbolt provides access to the PCIe bus.  Nothing more... nothing less.
Using Firewire over Thunderbolt instead of PCIe driver, you'll see the same performance as using Firewire-400 or USB2.  Absolutely the same round-trip latency... (witness the MOTU 828x)
On the Mac, UA has proper PCIe drivers for their Apollo series.  Round-trip latency is 4.5ms with a 64-sample ASIO buffer size @ 44.1k.  
Even with true PCIe drivers, Thunderbolt isn't going break major barriers regarding round-trip latency.
 
 
 

It's about price for performance.  Most USB interfaces are in the sub $1000 category aimed at the home studio user. The RME interfaces are much more expensive.  The Madiface XT which supports USB 3.0 can probably get even lower than 5ms, but I haven't seen specifics yet, but those start at $2500.  The TB interfaces will all be in the upper $2K or higher range.  That's fine if you're in that price range, but the fact there's not alot of better options for people in the sub $1K territory.
 
The issue that we're bringing up is Apple trying to force it's hand with Thunderbolt.  Right now it looks like all of those TB interfaces are Mac only, and as Jim mentioned there is no real performance boost over a PCIe card, and that the Trash Can Pro was aimed at axing the card market to external A/D converters only.
 
What's frustrating to me is that USB 3.0 has more than enough bandwith to provide 5ms or better, and it's a much cheaper and more ubiquitous solution than TB.  USB 2.0 is probably good enough, but I'd like to see more A/D vendors take a crack at USB 3.0.  Right now RME is the only one.

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