Helpful ReplyI recently re-installed Project 5 ...

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abacab
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2016/05/01 12:24:01 (permalink)

I recently re-installed Project 5 ...

Well, after reading several related threads, I was inspired to re-install Project 5 v2.5 ... and there are more than a few names from the legendary P5 forum that I still see around these forums. I was just a lurker back in the day, but learned a lot from you guys ... cheers! 
 
Whether or not Cakewalk can bring back P5, either as standalone or plugin, my point is that the original P5 may not be a dead horse yet. If you can run it, use it!  Don't really need any new features to use it simply as it was originally intended.  You still have Sonar for the heavy DAW work, or external instruments :-)

I finally have a PC rig that can handle multiple softsynths and effects without choking. All of my external instruments are in the closet now. I am a long time user of Sonar, but sometimes I still wish for the simplicity of the P5 GUI.

Wow! Sitting here listening to the Project 5 demo song "You Are That Man", again... I can feel the excitement from the first time I ever heard that sample, all over again :-)

The crazy thing is, this software still works. I am now running Windows 7 Pro 32-bit on a Intel Core i3-3240 with 4 GB ram and a Samsung EVO SSD.  My last workstation was a single core Pentium 4 with 2GB ram, and I remember the CPU bottleneck at 100% while running several software synths and effects. But not any more!!!

I cranked the latency of my audio drivers down to 8ms and this P5 demo song runs at about 15% CPU, with my CPU max frequency running at 50-60%. Hardly breathing ... plus this seems to be running two threads on my CPU, so somehow it is at least dual core, or hyperthread aware (The core i3 is dual core, hyperthreaded, 4 virtual cores).

The SSD is also running at about 1% or less ... Ram is using about 330MB.

This is one sweet virtual synth rack, with all the other goodies!

Don't get me wrong, I love Sonar as a DAW, but this thing gets my MIDI creative side fired up again.

I have been with Cakewalk since Professional v6. I was originally just into synth sequencing and keyboards, not audio. So Pro Audio and Sonar added a lot of audio capability, but somehow the emphasis on MIDI development got left behind.

Too bad that Cakewalk can't see the light to re-release Project 5, because there really is nothing else like it. I have a full version of LIVE and ACID Pro that are not installed on my PC, because I really have no need for them.  They are primarily audio loopers, with MIDI tacked on.  Project 5 can do that, but it is also an awesome MIDI softsynth workstation.  I think I will be keeping Project 5 around here a bit longer :-)

I've been playing around with Project 5 again for the past week and can't find any big issues...disclaimer, I am running Win 7 Pro 32-bit on a 64-bit capable PC, so your mileage may vary if you are on a 64 bit platform. I guess this may be one bright side to staying 32 bit. Have not needed to run more than 4 GB ram, so not in a hurry to step up...yet.
 
THE GOOD:
1. Effects - The Sonitus:FX still work OK, as well as many of the Cakewalk effects. Plus NI Guitar Rig4, YESSSS!!!  (nothing like running a fat VA through a guitar effects rack ... )  :-D

2. Synths - Most of the RGC:Audio & Cakewalk synths work fine, including Dimension Pro, Rapture, and Z3TA+2.  Also Cakewalk Studio Instruments and Sound Center work OK.  For third party, it's mostly positive (as far as what I have installed).  AAS Player and Strum Acoustic Session 1.0, YES!  XLN Addictive Drums 2, YES!  u-he Tyrell N6 and Zebralette, YES!  NI Kontakt 5 Player, YES! Also tried other u-he demos of Zebra and Hive, they are OK as well.
 
THE BAD:
1. Effects - Some of the new effects plugins from Sonar X2-X3 that I have installed, such as Nomad Factory and Overloud, are not licensed to run with it.
 
2. Synths - AAS Lounge Lizard Session 4, no.  I tried running u-he DIVA demo in Project 5 and the audio broke up terrible with high CPU usage. But this plugin is known to do that on many machines. Good news is that DIVA runs just fine in my Sonar X3 :-)

Summary: This is still good software!  Allow me to make an analogy here... Project 5 is the playground, while Sonar is the office.  You go the the playground to relax the mind and have fun getting creative, while you go to the office to get real work done. Sonar is great if you already know what you want to accomplish and have a plan. Record some tracks, mix & master, etc.  But, if you want to layer some sounds, build grooves, and play around, I find Project5 less intimidating to just jump in and make some noise!
post edited by abacab - 2016/05/01 12:53:13

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kennywtelejazz
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/05/03 03:13:18 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby abacab 2016/05/03 12:55:00
Geez..... the whole time , I thought I was the only P5 nut around here .....
 
I feel the same way you do .....
 
Ran P5 in Win 8 for a while, now it's running in Win 10 ...
 
As far as I'm concerned P5 runs better on the Win computers I have now than it ever did in XP .....
 
I don't mind that some of the plugs and synths from X3 and Splat not making it over ....
All The stuff I wanted and used the most made the trip over ...
 
Yeah P5 is still a cool playground .
 
all the best ,
 
Kenny

                   
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abacab
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/05/03 12:44:23 (permalink)
kennywtelejazz
 
As far as I'm concerned P5 runs better on the Win computers I have now than it ever did in XP .....
 
I don't mind that some of the plugs and synths from X3 and Splat not making it over ....
All The stuff I wanted and used the most made the trip over ...
 
Yeah P5 is still a cool playground .


+1 to the cool playground!
 
Here's an idea. There are probably some folks that have never seen or used P5, who are wondering what we are smoking ... so maybe Cakewalk could re-release Project5 as a freeware, community support only edition - no updates, etc.  Ideally they would open source the code, but I can understand that they may have some proprietary stuff under the hood that they cannot give away.
 
Cheers!
 
John

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kennywtelejazz
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/05/05 09:04:00 (permalink)
Hi John ,
 
I got P5 when SONAR 5 was what I was running in my SONAR journey back then .
I was very happy with what P5 brought to the table .
 
IMHO, When P5  came out a lot of the SONAR guys just didn't jive with it .
It may have been the P5 playground was simply way too different for the typical SONAR users workflow at the time .
 
Over the years , Cakewalk pretty much added a lot of P5's useful features and plugs to SONAR ...
The P5 features are buried deep in there. I find that it is not as simple and as intuitive a workflow as it was in P 5 ..
 
 
I've kinda made my Peace with P5 's non development ..a bitter sweet Peace 
 
 
all the best,
 
Kenny

                   
Oh Yeah , Life is Good .
The internet is nothing more than a glorified real time cartoon we all star in.
I play a "Gibson " R 8 Les Paul Cherry Sunburst .
The Love of my Life is an American Bulldog Named Duke . I'm currently running Cakewalk By BandLab as my DAW .
 
https://soundcloud.com/guitarist-kenny-wilson
 
https://www.youtube.com/user/Kennywtelejazz/videos?view=0&sort=dd&shelf_id=1
 
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=427899



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abacab
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/05/05 18:58:56 (permalink)
Yep! Agree that it has been quite the journey over the years with Cakewalk, and music technology in general. What a long, strange trip it's been :-)
 
P5 was probably ahead of it's time, and the DAW wars were really heating up.  The market forces are what they are.
 
I originally dropped in somewhere between Cakewalk for DOS and Cakewalk Pro Audio. I started with a midi keyboard and no computer, then picked up a hardware sequencer, a drum machine, and then a keyboard workstation with a built in sequencer and a 3.5 floppy drive. I would download midi files from the net at work, and take them home on the floppy. I also looked enviously at the Mac sequencer they had set up at the local music store. Those were happy days, for sure :-)
 
I rather feel like a dinosaur now. Things have changed a lot. Music styles, technology,  & workflows. On and on. For better or worse, it has been an evolution.  When Cake released the first Sonar 1.x, I jumped on it in 2001. Then a few years later, along came P5, wow! Then Cake bought rgc:audio and went headfirst into virtual instruments. I really hoped that Cake would step up the game in the direction of P5, I really liked where things were going ...
 
Interview with Greg Hendershott, Cakewalk founder http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/11/interview-cakewalk-founder-greg-hendershott-20-years-on/
 
Then Roland bought Cakewalk, Hendershott retired, Rene Ceballos (aka rgc) resigned, Gibson bought Cakewalk ... aaarrgghhhh!
 
But on the DAW frontier, being able to record audio tracks into a midi sequencer, and with Sonar evolving into a reliable DAW, it really created a whole new opportunity for non-keyboard musicians.  Finally, there was something there for guitar players! Not that there is anything wrong with guitar players. Some of my best friends sling a 6 stringer :-)
 
If you look around now at the music production world, it is obvious things have changed.  It seems the kind of workflow that P5 enabled is mostly favored by the EDM and electronica folks. You are probably correct that this workflow did not really click with the mainstream Sonar users, as well as with Cakewalk marketing to the mainstream. It was slugging it out with the big DAW boys, now!
 
So, in the end, I agree that at least we have been given these tools to work with. And some of them still rock!
 
So there are times that a simpler workflow is appealing. I am even thinking about giving Band in a Box a try ...
Check out this video of workflow with Sonar and BIAB at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58UZPnS2sqY
 
Cheers!
John
post edited by abacab - 2016/05/05 19:23:04

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BobF
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/05/06 12:48:52 (permalink)
Soundwise posted about Ignite a few days ago.  It looks promising, and parts seems very P5-ish to me.  It's interesting to me as a sketching tool
 

 
 

post edited by BobF - 2016/05/06 13:10:57

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abacab
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/05/06 15:00:36 (permalink)
BobF
Soundwise posted about Ignite a few days ago.  It looks promising, and parts seems very P5-ish to me.  It's interesting to me as a sketching tool
 

 
 






Thanks Bob!  Great find!


I downloaded the demo. Will have a go at it. I was just about to post that 2nd video you added. Nice workflow, seems even simpler than P5.


There is a NAMM video from when the product first announced. The stated purpose is to provide a song writing tool for musicians that veers away from the heavy engineering tech of a DAW, allowing for easier creativity in an intuitive interface.  Sort of like the original intent of Project5!  Wow!  Things have come full circle, LOL!


I really like how it even initially skips over requiring the use of a track or a matrix type grid.  You can just get ideas down into clips first, then later organize them into song parts or grids, etc.  That is even simpler than Ableton or P5.


It even has Band in a Box beaten, in that you do not need to key in your chord progression first.  The MIDI instruments have chord, pattern styles, and arps, that can be used for accompaniment tracks. They just follow along with what you play, i.e., the root or tonic note.  Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QERQ5XIRzaY or this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jONSArNtqdo (just ignore this guys statement that Ignite is free. I think he's just excited! There is a free demo of course, plus for $49 it looks like a deal).


Cakewalk, now you need to get to work on a plugin like this!


Best regards,

John

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abacab
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/05/06 22:19:23 (permalink)
OK, tried the demo of Ignite, and here are my first impressions ...
 
1. You must install the iLok to complete the activation ... my first app that needed this. Done.
2. (a) There are no MIDI driver setup or config options. If it detects your keyboard, great. If not, you're out of luck. (b) the program has built-in in profiles for current AKAI and M-Audio keyboards, that if so equipped, auto maps the controls for knobs and sliders, etc. (c) there is supposed to be a midi learn function for your keyboard if it is detected, but not supported.
3. No VST support, you are limited to the included instruments. Not really bad, considering you can use this as a scratchpad, then export the midi and audio track to your DAW for polishing ...
4. I noticed a little bit of latency running with the default audio WASAPI drivers, especially when using the chord or phrase mode. Switched to the ASIO drivers supplied by my M-Audio Firewire 410, and the latency seemed acceptable.
 
I had one keyboard, a Yamaha, with a MIDI-USB driver that could not be detected (2.(a)), although the Yamaha works with every other DAW and music app I have. I also have the original M-Audio Axiom 49 (2.(b)) that is detected, but not supported (the Axiom model II and Pro is supposedly supported). The MIDI learn (2.(c)) does not work, apparently because my Axiom v1 was sort of detected ... sheesh!  My Roland A-300PRO worked, but the 32 keys was really not enough to work with, considering that the smart MIDI instrument chord and phrase keys take up a full octave. The MIDI learn was active, though :-)
 
All said, it is clever, but it really seems designed to support the latest M-Audio keyboards. If you have the A-500PRO or A-800PRO, you probably will be OK.
 
So I probably ended up listing a bunch of technical issues that may keep me from enjoying this product.
 
Even so, I feel that the concept of Ignite captures the essence of simplicity that was originally intended for Project5, and steps up the game somewhat. Some may feel that this is a niche, but musicians and songwriters that do not desire to be audio engineers could be an untapped market for a polished app than can provide these simplified creative elements.
 
Hey Cakewalk, if you need a feature request template for Sonar, or a Sonar plugin, this is it!!!
 
post edited by abacab - 2016/05/06 22:53:12

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BobF
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/05/08 08:51:53 (permalink)
Thanks for the details.  I'll keep watching this and hopefully one day they'll add some basic audio/keyboard support - even if hidden behind a basic/advanced "firewall"
 
Looks like a VERY cool tool, but I'm not going to buy a keyboard to use it.

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abacab
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/09/09 14:42:08 (permalink)
BobF
Thanks for the details.  I'll keep watching this and hopefully one day they'll add some basic audio/keyboard support - even if hidden behind a basic/advanced "firewall"
 
Looks like a VERY cool tool, but I'm not going to buy a keyboard to use it.




Hey Bob!
 
AIR Ignite is on sale until Sept 30th for $19.95 (60% off).
 
So I tried it again (have upgraded to Win 10 from Win 7 since trying the demo) and even though I don't have one of the automatically configured keyboards (select AKAI and M-Audio models), I got it to work with 3 of my USB MIDI controllers.  The MIDI learn also worked fine on my A-300PRO.
 
I read the manual and one cool thing to do if you have a generic keyboard, is just hover the mouse over any fader or knob and you can scroll the value via mousewheel without having to click or drag on the value. 
 
The audio defaults to wasapi or whatever, but easy to change to ASIO for low latency.  The included instrument sounds are not that bad.  They sound like they come from the AIR Instrument collection.
 
This really looks useful as a scratchpad for arranging musical ideas.  The export for DAW option will let you export a folder containing a separate audio file for each instrument.  You can also export your MIDI clips as a MIDI file.

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BobF
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/09/11 09:13:02 (permalink)
Thanks for the update - I'll check it out

Bob  --
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abacab
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/09/11 11:35:54 (permalink)
BobF
Thanks for the update - I'll check it out




It's also free if you own any of the listed qualifying products, as Soundwise has posted here:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3480902

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pwalpwal
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/09/11 11:37:12 (permalink)
air though, it's all paced up :-/

just a sec

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abacab
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/09/11 11:38:52 (permalink)
pwalpwal
air though, it's all paced up :-/


 And that's a problem, because?

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pwalpwal
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/09/11 11:41:38 (permalink)
abacab
pwalpwal
air though, it's all paced up :-/


And that's a problem, because?


for me, it's a problem because it adds a driver-like drm component that is know to cause issues - i don't want that thanks :-)

just a sec

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abacab
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/09/11 12:49:07 (permalink)
pwalpwal
abacab
pwalpwal
air though, it's all paced up :-/


And that's a problem, because?


for me, it's a problem because it adds a driver-like drm component that is know to cause issues - i don't want that thanks :-)




OK, thanks for sharing.  The iLok License Manager 3.0.3.1468 loads a driver and a service at boot.  There is some other DRM-like software from other companies on my machines as well, and it all seems to get along.
 
Running stable here on two Windows 10 PC's.  No issues.
post edited by abacab - 2016/09/11 13:12:28

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BobF
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/09/12 11:00:37 (permalink)
Maybe P5 V3 x64 will be out soon 

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abacab
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/09/12 12:10:13 (permalink)
BobF
Maybe P5 V3 x64 will be out soon 




+1 

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pwalpwal
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/09/12 13:31:51 (permalink)
BobF
Maybe P5 V3 x64 will be out soon 


naughty! but also +1

just a sec

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gargonknight
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/09/22 18:16:42 (permalink)
looking at the conversation i myself loved p5 it was an animal but i think cakewalk would never bring p5 back. why? take a good look at sonar..... reminds you of anything?
 sonar is p5 on steroids it has the functionality of both sonar and p5. i left cakewalk and went to fruity loops after they got rid of p5 couldn't understand it and was upset as i invested in the program then it was dropped hard. but came back to sonar and was happy to see what appeared to be p5. i always wanted to put i back on but thought it wouldn't work but hearing you guys i think this weekend p5 will be making an appearance on my laptop i did some great stuff p5 and feel i will again.  

proper don gargon musical warrior!
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AT
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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/09/26 16:56:45 (permalink)
No, SONAR ain't as simple or as elegant as P5.  Still, SONAR does everything that I need (and more!).  I feel no need to put it on my main writing computer.  But it was very cool back then, with the built-in high quality synths and a simple methodology to record/edit them. 

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Re: I recently re-installed Project 5 ... 2016/11/01 11:40:43 (permalink)
Late to the party. I have no reason to post except for nostalgia.   
 
It's telling that passionate users still post here so many years after P5 was discontinued.  I have a soft spot in my heart for P5.  I made my first complete song in it, and much of what I know about production was developed using P5 and talking to the generous folks on this forum. Sadly, most of those folks appear to have moved on.
 
It's been said many times on here, but if you like P5's workflow, you might like Ableton Live.  That's where I landed.  In some ways I think P5 v2 was trying to emulate Live's session view.  Live is obviously way more fully featured than P5 which makes it a little more complex to navigate. But, one of the things people love most about Live is the streamlined workflow, just like P5.   
 
Good to hear P5 runs on Win 10.  Just got a new laptop and I may give it a go just for old time's sake.   
 
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