SonicExplorer
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IDE SSD Help/Insight Please
Hi, I have a very specific preference to swap out IDE HD's in two DAW PC's that are quite old (running W2K and XP - don't laugh). I would like to use SSD's dedicated only for Sonar projects, not for the OS. I only record one track at a time (or at most a stereo track) so the load would be primarily reading many tracks and mixing. By using SSD's it should in theory be much higher DAW performance and lower the strain on the PC power supply when playing back many tracks. One sub-type called a DOM (Disk On Module) seems the most plug-n-play but the capacities are very small in the < 10GB range. It would be tremendously helpful if some of you tech geeks could give me a quick basic brain dump on what type of drive I should look for and any other helpful hints and/or obstacles I should be aware of. I know of SSD's only in theory, no experience, but am rather technical with PC's. (And please control any urge to flame me or advise buying new computers, there are reasons I prefer to keep these systems alive) Thank you for any help, Sonic
post edited by SonicExplorer - 2017/01/24 21:13:24
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SonicExplorer
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Re: IDE SSD Help/Insight Please
2017/02/01 00:18:59
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ston
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Re: IDE SSD Help/Insight Please
2017/02/01 03:02:55
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fireberd
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Re: IDE SSD Help/Insight Please
2017/02/01 06:04:07
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I have to agree, even if you can get it to work somehow (which is iffy at best) you won't really gain anything as you would be using old IDE speed with a SATA device (in other words the SATA device will work at IDE speed thus nothing is gained).
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mudgel
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Re: IDE SSD Help/Insight Please
2017/02/04 01:39:05
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You would get more benefit running your OS on an SSD than projects.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: IDE SSD Help/Insight Please
2017/02/06 12:49:19
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Thanks guys. No PCIe, just PCI. I won't need the drive for OS, just for project work. I figure if I'm going to have to replace the drive then rather than put a standard HD in there, why not use an SSD that will probably be able to stream more tracks at once (if for no other reason there will be less head seeking) but also be more reliable and consume a bit less power as well. And generate less heat inside the system. I see only positive reasons in using an SSD over standard HD in this situation. If my thinking is incorrect please let me know.
Thanks,
Sonic
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: IDE SSD Help/Insight Please
2017/02/06 13:12:21
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☼ Best Answerby SonicExplorer 2017/02/06 13:29:40
You don't have a SATA-III controller on that motherboard.
Without PCIe slots, you can't add a SATA-III controller.
With SATA-II, you'd max out at ~300MB/Sec with SSD.
A current generation conventional SATA HD will sustain ~200MB/Sec.
If the motherboard has PCIe slots, you'd have better options for SSD.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: IDE SSD Help/Insight Please
2017/02/06 13:32:47
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Jim Roseberry
You don't have a SATA-III controller on that motherboard. Without PCIe slots, you can't add a SATA-III controller. With SATA-II, you'd max out at ~300MB/Sec with SSD. A current generation conventional SATA HD will sustain ~200MB/Sec. All this as compared to what at the moment with the standard 7200 HDD? (About 100-130 MB/Sec range?) I guess what is being conveyed in some replies is that the bottleneck is still going to be the IDE bus. BUT surely if I'm streaming playback of something like 2 or 3 dozen tracks then the SSD would at least be a clear efficiency gain since there would be zero latency on the head seeks, right? I can't recall for sure, but when I last tried to do large projects I think I was getting drop-outs and it took a few seconds for the playback to spin up (buffer up). I'm guessing with SSD's I'd at least be able to come closer to the max IDE bandwidth with other minor performance improvements & efficiencies. If nothing else heat reduction. A standard IDE HDD can almost cook an egg when it is being hammered after a while. lol
post edited by SonicExplorer - 2017/02/06 14:30:38
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ston
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Re: IDE SSD Help/Insight Please
2017/02/06 14:37:27
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Well, IDE supports rates up to 133MB/s, so that's all you'll get if you use an IDE-SATA adapter. Hmm, thinking about it, IIRC then PCI = 33Mhz x 4 bytes (32 bits) = 133MB/s (also).
If you go PCI to SATA II, I've not found any internal adapters yet.
If nothing else, you'll have an SSD which you can use later on when you've got an interface that properly supports it :-)
[edit]
Regarding your point about the efficiency gain due to lack of seek time, that is true but you may need to factor in a little latency caused by whatever adapter you use. It probably won't be much, but probably worth checking out.
Is your OS 32-bit or 64-bit btw?
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abacab
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Re: IDE SSD Help/Insight Please
2017/02/06 14:42:53
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Since you will be stuck with using an IDE/SATA adapter to attach an SSD to your motherboard, this table shows the max transfer rate (MB/s) for each ATA controller revision. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UDMA The version of PATA interface on your motherboard will limit how fast you can move data no matter what type of SSD you install. Yes, your access time should decrease, but that is not the biggest factor in performing sequential reads. Can your ATA mode support the number of tracks you intend to playback?
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SonicExplorer
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Re: IDE SSD Help/Insight Please
2017/02/06 17:32:19
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abacab
Since you will be stuck with using an IDE/SATA adapter to attach an SSD to your motherboard, this table shows the max transfer rate (MB/s) for each ATA controller revision.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UDMA
The version of PATA interface on your motherboard will limit how fast you can move data no matter what type of SSD you install. Yes, your access time should decrease, but that is not the biggest factor in performing sequential reads. Can your ATA mode support the number of tracks you intend to playback?
I'm not certain on the motherboard controller....I think it is ATA/100 as I know Dell was putting those drives in the box at the time. Interesting question on the ATA mode. I wouldn't likely be streaming more than 2 dozen tracks - 24 bit @ 44.1K. Could someone please help me compute the total throughput math required to support that? Thanks, Sonic
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abacab
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Re: IDE SSD Help/Insight Please
2017/02/06 18:38:07
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SonicExplorer
I'm not certain on the motherboard controller....I think it is ATA/100 as I know Dell was putting those drives in the box at the time.
For hardware specs, this free utility is hard to beat! I can find my drive controller info easily with this. https://www.hwinfo.com/ SonicExplorer
Interesting question on the ATA mode. I wouldn't likely be streaming more than 2 dozen tracks - 24 bit @ 44.1K. Could someone please help me compute the total throughput math required to support that?
I think that the general consensus is that spinning drives are fine for audio recording. I'm sure folks have mixed that many tracks using PATA HDD with no problem. Here is a calculator for space requirements to store digital audio. It shows the storage total for a song in total number of seconds. I think you could just skip that last step to get the total bitrate per second, in bytes. http://faq.yamaha.com/us/en/article/live_sound/mixers/digital-mixers/pm5d___pm5d-rh/2481/1626/Calculating_the_Space_Required_to_Store_Digital_Audio I'm also starting to think that even with 24 stereo tracks, you are coming nowhere near the max throughput of your existing drive configuration. If you are experiencing audio dropouts, I would look elsewhere for your bottlenecks. System latency could be an issue with real-time audio. Try running LatencyMon to see how your system stands regarding real-time audio. http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon Here is something to consider. This is the best video I have seen that explains real-time audio requirements. CPU Performance vs. Real-Time Performance in Digital Audio Workstations (DAW)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUsLLEkswzE
post edited by abacab - 2017/02/06 19:03:23
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SonicExplorer
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Re: IDE SSD Help/Insight Please
2017/02/06 22:21:13
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Thanks abacab.
You are correct, if I read things correctly according to that link the math works out to less than 4MB/s when streaming 24 mono tracks 24-bit at 44.1K I'm quite amazed at that frankly. Still though, here's the real issue - it only takes ONE event to cause a dropout. So if the constant head-seeking across 24 different tracks, plus an occasional pagefile hit, causes enough of an additional interruption that exceeds the buffering window, then the streaming will drop out. I totally understand the "on paper" argument, but in practical reality I still suspect an SSD is clearly superior to an HDD for high-count track playback. Of course provided the memory and CPU don't become a problem first.
BTW, looks like I can't run LatencyMon on the system, doesn't support XP apparently. Looks like an older version only reaches back as far as Vista.
Sonic
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abacab
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Re: IDE SSD Help/Insight Please
2017/02/06 22:37:31
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SonicExplorer
Thanks abacab.
You are correct, if I read things correctly according to that link the math works out to less than 4MB/s when streaming 24 mono tracks 24-bit at 44.1K I'm quite amazed at that frankly. Still though, here's the real issue - it only takes ONE event to cause a dropout. So if the constant head-seeking across 24 different tracks, plus an occasional pagefile hit, causes enough of an additional interruption that exceeds the buffering window, then the streaming will drop out. I totally understand the "on paper" argument, but in practical reality I still suspect an SSD is clearly superior to an HDD for high-count track playback. Of course provided the memory and CPU don't become a problem first.
BTW, looks like I can't run LatencyMon on the system, doesn't support XP apparently. Looks like an older version only reaches back as far as Vista.
Sonic
It's up to you if you want to try the SSD, but that's probably not your issue. In any case, you can redeploy the SSD in your new system, so it's not money wasted. It's more likely that your CPU is not keeping up with your audio buffer in real-time. It's probably busy servicing another device. One missed buffer, and you have an audio dropout.
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ston
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Re: IDE SSD Help/Insight Please
2017/02/07 05:21:20
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There are a number of HDD benchmarking tools out there that you can try, to see what sequential read/write speeds your drives are capable of, effectively removing the audio buffers and their CPU handling out of the picture. e.g. CrystalDiskMark http://crystalmark.info/software/CrystalDiskMark/index-e.html ATTO Disk Benchmark, HD Tune are some others. There's quite a lot out there and some are quite old so would work fine on an XP system.
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abacab
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Re: IDE SSD Help/Insight Please
2017/02/07 08:53:58
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I was going to suggest a disk benchmark, but if dropouts are occurring at less than 4MB/s when streaming 24 mono tracks 24-bit at 44.1K, the bottleneck is likely somewhere else. Especially in an older generation PC.
The posted question was just about disk drives, so the discussion of system latency is sort of off topic.
But since the OP also never mentioned whether he is using a proper audio interface with ASIO audio drivers only, and no system hardware info provided either, it is difficult to speculate on the cause of dropouts. It could be anything.
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ston
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Re: IDE SSD Help/Insight Please
2017/02/08 06:35:00
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abacab
I was going to suggest a disk benchmark, but if dropouts are occurring at less than 4MB/s when streaming 24 mono tracks 24-bit at 44.1K, the bottleneck is likely somewhere else. Especially in an older generation PC.
Likely, yes, but not proven yet. It would help to clarify if there is any issue with the hard drive system, which could be caused by e.g. PIO mode (which has happened to me before) or highly fragmented drives.
The posted question was just about disk drives, so the discussion of system latency is sort of off topic.
I don't know why you say that as I haven't mentioned latency at all (but you have). It could be relevant though. It's not entirely clear yet what the real issue is that the OP is trying to discuss or solve. If it's a performance/dropout issue, then this is all I've found in this thread regarding this: "I can't recall for sure, but when I last tried to do large projects I think I was getting drop-outs and it took a few seconds for the playback to spin up (buffer up)." That sounds to me like a playback issue rather than a recording one. Regardless, I do think it's worth ensuring that the issue does not lie with the current hard drives. If the purpose of the thread is to determine whether or not the OP's system/performance/dropout issues can be improved by installing an SSD in his existing hardware, then as long as there is not an issue with the existing hard drives, doing this is highly unlikely to improve the overall performance (due to the problem most likely being elsewhere).
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abacab
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Re: IDE SSD Help/Insight Please
2017/02/08 08:41:41
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ston
The posted question was just about disk drives, so the discussion of system latency is sort of off topic.
I don't know why you say that as I haven't mentioned latency at all (but you have). It could be relevant though.
Actually I was not replying to you. I was just attempting to frame my remarks in the context of the OP, to make clear why I was not going to go into system performance, other than some general advice. As you have stated, it's not entirely clear what the OP is trying to solve here. If it was me troubleshooting disk performance, the free CrystalDiskMark is the first thing I would have looked at. Then there is always DPC Latency Checker, which supports older OS like Win2K and XP. This should give some insight into the handling of real-time audio on the system. A good overall discussion of system latency is available here as well. http://www.thesycon.de/eng/latency_check.shtml
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mudgel
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Re: IDE SSD Help/Insight Please
2017/02/08 22:51:50
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☄ Helpfulby BassDaddy 2017/02/09 09:37:21
Which version of Sonar are you going to use?
The current Sonar version no longer supports Win. XP.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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