INSERT confusing?

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2013/12/20 14:05:15 (permalink)

INSERT confusing?

So in Sonar X3D UI we have under the Project menu:
 
Insert Meter/Key Change
Insert Tempo Change
Insert Series of Tempos
Insert Time measures
Insert Marker

Shouldn't  this all be under Insert in the Menu? (really confuses me!).
 
Any flaws in my logic?

Thanks...

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    jb101
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 14:13:36 (permalink)
    Can't say it's a problem for me.  Threw me a couple of times when I first moved to X series, but then I remembered.
     
    I can see the logic - Insert menu is about inserting things like Tracks and Busses, whereas Project menu is for things like Markers, Key changes etc.

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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 14:17:20 (permalink)
    I see the logic by stating they are handling different sorts of things, but why would Markers, Key changes etc be under menu be called Project?
    On those merits I could argue then that everything under Insert should be under Project? Instead :)
     
    Thanks
     
    Alex
     
     

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    #3
    John
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 14:29:20 (permalink)
    I kind of understand it as it pertains to the project as a whole but it is needlessly confusing because of having an insert menu too. 
     
    I bypass those menus usually and just use a context menu to insert a track or directly via my CS a marker.  

    Best
    John
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 14:37:22 (permalink)
    Well,,,,
     
    Insert menu is Tracks and Buses
     
    Project is Tempos/measures/meters and markers.
     
    Proposal:

    Rename Insert menu to "Tracks and Buses" to avoid confusion.
     
    Move
     
    Insert Meter/Key Change
    Insert Tempo Change
    Insert Series of Tempos
    Insert Time measures
    Insert Marker
     
    To a new menu, don't know what that would be called.
    Situation at present having them under project is not optimal. Everything in theory could be under project. My view of Project is that this should be for one off project operations, not things that get regularly updated.
     

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    Splat
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 15:08:37 (permalink)
    Logged as feature request... No issue number (I wish we could have issue numbers here darn it ),

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    Sanderxpander
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 15:47:55 (permalink)
    I switch between DAWs too often to really know this kind of thing for sure, but I really thought insert meter/key/tempo change used to be somewhere else, perhaps in the insert menu? I agree with Alex that the "insert" menu name adds unnecessary confusion. Tracks/busses seems to make sense. I actually prefer the Logic way with a plus icon at the top of the track list and you just pick what kind of track you want to add.
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    Splat
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 15:53:06 (permalink)
    ... and the menu UI could do with a total overhaul when it comes to these menus. Time to modernise it. There's a feature request for X4.

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    jb101
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 16:03:55 (permalink)
    They changed all the menus around with X1 and everyone was up in arms.
     
    You want to change them all again, just as we've learnt them.

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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 16:23:03 (permalink)
    Don't change it because it was always that way is always a BS argument.
    It's a trivial change anyway, will take a developer 1 hour to do.
    Then they can revise the menu structure so it looks all cool and iPhone like for touch users ;)
    Actually I hope they do, although it would be nice to have a classic menu option as well (so people don't complain that the start button wasn't taken away from them ).

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    jb101
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 16:28:48 (permalink)
    What has got into you?

    It wasn't an argument, so it can't have been a BS argument. My point was that it hadn't always been that way, it changed in X1.

    More importantly, it was a light hearted comment, as any reasonable person could see.

    Good luck..

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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 16:33:23 (permalink)
    Jonathon , I totally read it the way you intended.
     
    Nothing was targeted at you in what I wrote up there....it was an analysis about how people think not how I think you think . I was doing exactly the same as you and writing the same way as you, taking one step back. Abstract. Believe me if I was annoyed or something I would directly target you

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    John
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 16:34:50 (permalink)
    JB thats the way I read your post too. Just a kind of irony that it should be changed again.
     
    I'm not sure I can handle another change.  LOL I might need therapy if they change it. But I don't use those menus that much anyway.  

    Best
    John
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 16:40:50 (permalink)
    I concur John... Therapy is actually scheduled to be bundled in with X5G

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    brundlefly
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 18:09:37 (permalink)
    John
    LOL I might need therapy if they change it.

     
    Not to worry. I'm confident the Bakers will see it for the bad idea it is. 

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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 18:21:42 (permalink)
    Well I just don't see the logic in keeping it how it is at present, and I think I've demonstrated why pretty clearly. Any changes would have to be happening for X4 (mainly because of documentation). Over and out.... Cheers....
     
    > I'm confident the Bakers will see it for the bad idea it is. 
     
    Bundling therapy has already been tried before, BTW... it was called paperclip or Microsoft Bob.

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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 18:38:20 (permalink)
    jb101
    What has got into you?

    It wasn't an argument, so it can't have been a BS argument. My point was that it hadn't always been that way, it changed in X1.

    More importantly, it was a light hearted comment, as any reasonable person could see.

    Good luck..



     
    I just read this again, I think this was the actual misunderstanding...
     
    Definition:
     
    https://www.google.co.uk/#q=argument
     
    1) An exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one. "I've had an argument with my father"
     
    2) A reason or set of reasons given in support of an idea, action or theory. "there is a strong argument for submitting a formal appeal"
     
    I meant 2 - Sorry if that wasn't clear... cheers...

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    Anderton
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 18:53:42 (permalink)
    "Not necessarily, I could be arguing in my spare time."

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    Splat
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 19:06:16 (permalink)


    Ha - that's a good argument :)

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    jb101
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 19:09:56 (permalink)
    brundlefly
    John
    LOL I might need therapy if they change it.

     
    Not to worry. I'm confident the Bakers will see it for the bad idea it is. 



    I think the Bakers have been overrun with bad ideas on this forum over the last few days.
     
    I only hope that the Bakers aren't wasting their valuable time sifting through all this BS.
     
    I know I have..

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    Splat
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 19:13:47 (permalink)
    Thanks Jonathan - that's really nice of you ;).
     
    (Isn't the five minutes up yet?)

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    jb101
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 19:19:50 (permalink)
    CakeAlexS
    Thanks Jonathan - that's really nice of you ;).




    Alex, I've tried being nice, and have been met with sarcasm and sophistry.
     
    When recommending  Sonar to students (or colleagues), I have always "pushed" this forum as one of it's major selling points.
     
    Since your one man campaign, I would be embarrassed to do so.
     
    I don't know what to say.

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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 19:26:59 (permalink)
    Jonathan - you just aren't reading what I'm writing - I'm sorry.

    I clarified twice what you misunderstood earlier. You still didn't take the opportunity to re-read what I said and took completely the wrong end of the stick thinking everything was aimed towards you.. I even tried apologising.
     
    That last comment clearly was aimed against me, so there you have it, that last comment was a DIRECT comment towards you....  And then you throw a pretty nasty generalistic comment afterwards. So you got what you wanted, a reaction...
     
    Maybe it's a cultural issue.
     
     
    Anyways whatever... I see what you want I haven't got the extra 5 pounds..

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    jb101
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 19:44:18 (permalink)
    CakeAlexS
    Jonathan - you just aren't reading what I'm writing - I'm sorry.

    I clarified twice what you misunderstood earlier. You still didn't take the opportunity to re-read what I said and took completely the wrong end of the stick thinking everything was aimed towards you.. I even tried apologising.
     
    That last comment clearly was aimed against me, so there you have it, that last comment was a DIRECT comment towards you....  And then you throw a pretty nasty generalistic comment afterwards. So you got what you wanted, a reaction...
     
    Maybe it's a cultural issue.
     
     
    Anyways whatever... I see what you want I haven't got the extra 5 pounds..




    This is my last comment on this thread.
     
    You again play these games.  Sophistry.
     
    I'm not sure about "Cultural Issues".  I may live in Lincolnshire, but spent most of my working life in London, and was born/brought up in the Surrey/Hants area.  Perhaps it is cultural..
     
    I "Took the opportunity" re-read "What I said (sic) ", and saw your apology for what it was.
     
    I think my comments were pretty clear, and showed no generalisations at all.
     
    I think I have probably spoken enough on this, and further comments will be sent via PM, as perhaps they should have been in the first place.
     
    My apologies.
     
    Jonathan

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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 19:48:27 (permalink)
    "You again play these games.  Sophistry."
     
    OK you are getting into the realm of the paranoid... backing off now!!!

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    SteveStrummerUK
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 21:39:00 (permalink)
    CakeAlexS
    Well,,,,
     
    Insert menu is Tracks and Buses
     
    Project is Tempos/measures/meters and markers.
     
    Proposal:

    Rename Insert menu to "Tracks and Buses" to avoid confusion.
     
    Move
     
    Insert Meter/Key Change
    Insert Tempo Change
    Insert Series of Tempos
    Insert Time measures
    Insert Marker
     
    To a new menu, don't know what that would be called.
    Situation at present having them under project is not optimal. Everything in theory could be under project. My view of Project is that this should be for one off project operations, not things that get regularly updated.
     



    I couldn't agree more.
     
    I finalise my arrangements in SONAR, and as part of the process I'm always adding and removing measures here and there.
     
    Since X1 arrived, and right up until this very day, I still hit Insert out of habit instead of Project when I want to add in a few bars.
     
    I take into account the subtle differences between the menus, and maybe another solution would be to create a new 'Insert' button in the Track View pane itself:
     

     
     

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    dlesaux
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 21:49:43 (permalink)
    I also agree that these two menu categories are confusing and should be cleaned up. Not a show stopper but should be more intuitive..

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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/20 22:03:16 (permalink)
    @Steve Totally brilliant idea...
     
    You know I totally forgot about those menus below... But they change depending on the View being displayed, i.e. maximising the console.
     
    ... and if you open the console and click on Tracks, what do you get....
    Insert Audio Track
    Insert MIDI Track
     
    Which is also on the Insert main menu ...
     
    My mind now is totally blown!!!!
     
    I could probably go through all this and have a go at optimizing this menu structure, but it probably would take a day so I won't :) Anyway this needs to be turned upside down on it's head in my view.. UI simplicity is very important... ask Apple (I hate myself for saying that)...

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    #28
    brundlefly
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/21 04:06:56 (permalink)
    SteveStrummerUK
    maybe another solution would be to create a new 'Insert' button in the Track View pane itself:
     


     
    'fraid I'm not down with that one, either. All those menu headings are objects, and the relevant actions related to each object are in the menus - like context menus. Having an "Insert" menu there would reverse that relationship, and wouldn't be in keeping with the logic of rest of the menu bar.

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    #29
    John T
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    Re: INSERT confusing? 2013/12/21 05:10:05 (permalink)
    The separation of these things makes sense to me. The stuff under Insert is kind of like tangible objects - synths and tracks and what have you. The stuff under Project is stuff that relates to the composition you're working on. It's not so much that they should be on the same menu, I don't think. More that "Project" is an unclear term for the second category.

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    #30
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