If you like complex, tonal yet chromatic orchestral music, here you go...

I recently finished my 12th album.  One of the pieces is a symphony in 4 parts.  The following link is to the recording and score of the 4th part.
 
http://www.jerrygerber.com/symph8prt4.htm
 
I used Sonar 7.0.2 as my DAW, Vienna Symphonic Library orchestral cube and Requiem Professional sample libraries for sounds.  Also used in this recording:
 
Yamaha DM2000 mixing board
Adam S3A powered monitors
Yamaha SPX2000 reverb
Ozone 5 Advanced signal processing
Sound Forge
 
Hope you enjoy listening as much as I enjoyed working on it.
 
Jerry Gerber
www.jerrygerber.com

I also tried but playback was very choppy. Could only listen a small section without the playback being interrupted.

What I heard sounded pretty impressive.

Sounds Excellent!  Great work all around.   A tremendous composition and orchestration.  I like the sound of VSL - sounds very expressive - you know how to make it come alive.  How many tracks are involved with a piece like this?

mstodge


Tried it, but it was too awkward to get to. Says I need flash player, then I ended up downloading a massive PDF? Didn't hear the track.

Yes, you need a flash player.  They are extremely common, they're free and they work.

Jerry, I'm a sucker for epic productions like this.  This is definitely up to par with your previous pieces.  Good luck on your CD!

Simply beautiful stuff, Jerry. You know your stuff.

Those strings sound absolutely convincing.

The horns are a bit loud and too much high end so they kinda are a giveaway, which is something commonly heard in the sampled orchestras. I find when I do stuff like this I am always cutting the horns at 4k with a high shelf.

The whole thing could use some unifying reverb.

jsg

jamesyoyo


Simply beautiful stuff, Jerry. You know your stuff.

Those strings sound absolutely convincing.

The horns are a bit loud and too much high end so they kinda are a giveaway, which is something commonly heard in the sampled orchestras. I find when I do stuff like this I am always cutting the horns at 4k with a high shelf.

The whole thing could use some unifying reverb.

Amazing how we all hear very differently.  I am satisfied the horns are in balance and any more reverb and the textures and counterpoint would lose defintion, I tried using a little more and didn't like it.  
 
JG

No, they are in balance. It just sounds like the microphone for the horns is RIGHT IN THE CUP, if you know what I mean. The immediacy of the highs is not something you would get in recording a brass ensemble, even in the studio.


But some of the instrumentation sounds like it was recorded in an an-echoic chamber, where there seems to be no sense of space. Even a little bit of room reverb would work. 

jamesyoyo

jsg

jamesyoyo


Simply beautiful stuff, Jerry. You know your stuff.

Those strings sound absolutely convincing.

The horns are a bit loud and too much high end so they kinda are a giveaway, which is something commonly heard in the sampled orchestras. I find when I do stuff like this I am always cutting the horns at 4k with a high shelf.

The whole thing could use some unifying reverb.

Amazing how we all hear very differently.  I am satisfied the horns are in balance and any more reverb and the textures and counterpoint would lose defintion, I tried using a little more and didn't like it.  

JG

No, they are in balance. It just sounds like the microphone for the horns is RIGHT IN THE CUP, if you know what I mean. The immediacy of the highs is not something you would get in recording a brass ensemble, even in the studio.


But some of the instrumentation sounds like it was recorded in an an-echoic chamber, where there seems to be no sense of space. Even a little bit of room reverb would work. 

Your comments seem more directed as to how VSL records their brass, which I have no control over. The brass are sampled close, which might bother your ear, and does not bother mine. I experimented with numerous reverb settings and came up with the one that satisfied my ear the most.
JG

Jeff Evans


I have done quite a few orchestral simulations in my day and found it is best to put the whole orchestra into a nice sounding room. As you would hear at a live concert. I found reverb times over 3 seconds are required too to make it sound right. Convolution reverbs do it better as well.

I am not sure what you mean by putting the "whole orchestra" into a nice sounding room.  There is no orchestra, there is no room, this is made with a sample library!  Not sure exactly what you mean...
 
When I use reverb times over 3 seconds, I find the percussive sharpness I want and the contrapuntal textures I use become somewhat smeared, so I don't think one size fits all. 
 
JG

Jerry,

Can you share some of the thought process you use when you lay out your song form and changes?

Do you just start at the beginning and plow forward or do you come up with something like an outline or frame work and then flesh it in?

Where do you get the ideas to fly the different instruments in as you do?

I'm just sort of curious about your working and conceptualization process.


best regards,
mike

Jeff Evans


By orchestra I was referring to all the VST's you are using to create the sound of the orchestra. I assume you are using multiple VST's with perhaps multiple outputs. I was suggesting sending everything into the convolution reverb at a similar level and then returning that to your mix. That is the 'room'. 

That convolution reverb though has to be nice and you might have to spend time finding the right sounding room as well. And edit it too for final adjustments.

I agree that percussion can sometimes lack definition as a result of this too but the great thing about this is that I assume you are using different VST's or outputs for the percussion alone so you can send a little less of those parts into the room to improve that. Or perhaps the percussion parts into a second reverb that maybe is a little smaller and less of. 

The thing is that you never really hear an orchestra dry. Live it is usually in a rather large space and that adds its own thing to the sound. Even studio recordings of orchestras are in large spaces too and that tends to keep things a bit larger sounding. They can add reverb to studio recordings too and they do.

I also find panning everything as you would see it at a live concert also helps.

Ah, I see where you're going with this.  For many composers, the end-game is to sound identical, or as close to identical as a live ensemble.  This to me is absurd.  Here is why:
 
1.  There is no comparision between a live ensemble and a MIDI recording.   The psycho-social energies of live players interacting together is not duplicatable electronically.   Also, the aural experience in a live hall is, due to the countless early reflections, not something that can be duplicated with two speakers (perhaps surround can get closer, but I choose not to work in surround). 
 
2.  Panning "everything" as a live orchestra would sit (placement of the players) is also a trap.  First, not all orchestras set up the same way.  Some have 1st and 2nd violins on one side, some don't.  But a more important reason, again, comes down to the difference between the acoustic aural experience and the experience of listening through stereo speakers or headphones.  I find, for example it is much more effective to have 1st violins on one side of the stereo field, and 2nd violins on the other because when they're playing contrapuntally, the lines achieve a higher level of transparency, something I value in my music.
 
Where a comparision gets interesting to me is a comparison between a recording of a live orchestra and a recording of a virtual orchestra.   We're getting closer every year.   My first sampler had a violin patch that consisted of around 3 or 4 samples.  The VSL solo violin I use (not in the 4th movement of my new symphony) consists of over 22,000 samples.  So rather than aim for the unachievable goal of duplicating a live orchestra, I look at MIDI as its own medium, with its own strengths and weaknesses.  In the same way that photography was first thought of as a "mockup" for painters in the 19th century, very few people in those days knew that photography was going to become its own medium, and it has certainly, in the past 100 years, earned its place as a fine art. 
 
If any of you are in the San Francisco Bay area, you might want to attend my workshop in May called "Beyond the MIDI Mockup", sponsored by the Manhattan Producer's Alliance and the San Francisco Center for New Music (www.jerrygerber.com/beyondthemidimockup.htm).
 
Jerry
 
 

mike_mccue


Jerry,

Can you share some of the thought process you use when you lay out your song form and changes?

Do you just start at the beginning and plow forward or do you come up with something like an outline or frame work and then flesh it in?

Where do you get the ideas to fly the different instruments in as you do?

I'm just sort of curious about your working and conceptualization process.


best regards,
mike

It's all trial-and-error Mike.  I start off generally with a template of the instruments I want to write for. I improvise on the piano, I think about how I want the piece to begin, but sometimes it all just happens spontaneously.  I usually start at the beginning and just compose.  But, I often go back 20, 30, or even 100 measures earlier to revise and edit.  In fact, for me composition is as much abou re-working passages and editing as it is about creating music.  
 
A symphonic movement is usually not quite "song-form".   I distinguish between form (preexisting traditional forms such as song-form, rondo, theme and variations, sonata form, etc.) and Form (with a capital F).  Form in this sense means to me that the form grows intuitively, organically, naturally out of the content.  There is no imposing form on the piece, the piece more or less suggests its form to me based on the material that already has been written.   This is my 31st symphonic movement, and there is no formula or method that I use that can be applied.   Its all about deep listening, imagining, writing, evaluating, re-writing, re-writing and making something good better. 
 
I hope this helps!
 
Jerry

Thanks Jerry some nice and interesting thoughts there.

jsg

mike_mccue


Jerry,

Can you share some of the thought process you use when you lay out your song form and changes?

Do you just start at the beginning and plow forward or do you come up with something like an outline or frame work and then flesh it in?

Where do you get the ideas to fly the different instruments in as you do?

I'm just sort of curious about your working and conceptualization process.


best regards,
mike

It's all trial-and-error Mike.  I start off generally with a template of the instruments I want to write for. I improvise on the piano, I think about how I want the piece to begin, but sometimes it all just happens spontaneously.  I usually start at the beginning and just compose.  But, I often go back 20, 30, or even 100 measures earlier to revise and edit.  In fact, for me composition is as much abou re-working passages and editing as it is about creating music.  
 
A symphonic movement is usually not quite "song-form".   I distinguish between form (preexisting traditional forms such as song-form, rondo, theme and variations, sonata form, etc.) and Form (with a capital F).  Form in this sense means to me that the form grows intuitively, organically, naturally out of the content.  There is no imposing form on the piece, the piece more or less suggests its form to me based on the material that already has been written.   This is my 31st symphonic movement, and there is no formula or method that I use that can be applied.   Its all about deep listening, imagining, writing, evaluating, re-writing, re-writing and making something good better. 
 
I hope this helps!
 
Jerry

Hi Jerry, 
 Thanks so much for elaborating. Your description of how you regard the term "form" told me a whole lot about how you approach the music.


 In fact, it was the free flowing nature of your work that caused me to wonder how you make your way through all the changes.


 Thank you very much for sharing your music with us.


 It is a joy to listen to, learn from, and be inspired by such craftsmanship. I can sense your confidence as an a artist. I appreciate it and I think it is a privilege to get to hear your early releases.


best regards,
mike




edited grammar

"But anyone who listens to orchestral music will know it is not real."


That's what people who go to the symphony think about all recorded music.

The classic recordings of great symphony performances, on their best day, sound like classic recordings.

Suggesting that there is some standard to adhere to is a form of nostalgia.




best regards,
mike