icontakt
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/03 07:30:02
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Oh, this thread is now in the Feature & Ideas forum.
Hmm......I think the forum host could have waited a bit until the OP received a reply from support.
The behavior in question is now highly likely 'as intended,' though.
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bvideo
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/03 09:16:14
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icontakt
I've been thinking that the reason why the Controller pane in Sonar displays only one channel per lane is that there are users who want to edit data that way (by channel).
Sound sensible, but the controller pane should use the track's assigned channel as the "one channel". icontakt
As for recording MIDI with a multi-channel/timbral synth, I think this is what the majority of users do:
1. Load the synth into the Track view.
2. Give each instrument in the synth a different MIDI channel.
3. Create multiple MIDI tracks and choose the corresponding MIDI channel number from the C drop-down for each track to play the right instrument in the synth.
4. Just record data by the method 1 or 2 I mentioned earlier, without worrying about what MIDI channel the device is sending.
IF this is what they actually do, then it is likely that all MIDI events in the project have the same channel number. And they want to be able to merge clips without having to wonder where the controller data that were there in front of their eyes have gone after they simply merged two clips to one.
Fix the controller display so it works for all users, not just the "I only use channel 1" users. Why would anyone want to display multiple controller lanes for a track that has the track output channel lane set to a number? icontakt
The thing is, if you just want to change the events' channel number at once, you can easily do so by selecting the clips (or the track itself, or even Ctrl+A) and enter the desired channel number in the Event Inspector, but if you just want to merge clips together (without forcing the channel number to change), you have to select "None" from the C drop-down first, and figuring it out will take time for new users.
I get the impression you're not addressing what I've said about the controller lane display being wrong.
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bvideo
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/03 09:36:28
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SquireBum
I can appreciate Tak's reasoning from the standpoint that Track parameters should not affect a bounced clip. If other Track parameters affected a bounced clip, then should I expect the resulting volume of an audio clip to be lower when the track fader is lowered by 12 db prior to a clip bounce?
The problem with changing the behavior after it has been an accepted part of Sonar since at least version 8.5 is that now experienced users will be screaming from the rooftops about loss of a "feature". This doesn't take into account the innumerable Problem Reports "Bounce to Clip won't change the MIDI channel". 
I think we all agree that the controller lanes should update after a bounce and this should definitely be addressed.
Rather than agreeing with how you said it, I would state the interaction between 'bounce' and 'controller lane display' this way: for tracks where the channel has been set to a number, the displayed controller lanes should not be affected by a bounce (or any other change in event channel numbers). More generally, I'm saying the controller lane display should automatically treat all events as though they have the channel number associated with the track. The debate about what bounce does or should do is misleading, and is only raging because of what the controller lane display is doing wrong.
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icontakt
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/03 10:24:41
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I understand your point, and I don't think I opposed to the idea of improving the controller display. I was only saying that Bounce to Clip should just do what its name says regardless of the track's channel (at least until the Controller lane display is improved, or fixed, which I thought would take longer or would affect some users negatively) because the current Bounce to Clip behavior could really confuse new/inexperienced Sonar users. If the Controller lane display could be improved and everyone could be happy, that would be the best solution, of course.
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Anderton
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/03 10:57:35
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Did Copper ever realize you don't always have to force MIDI events to the same channel?
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bvideo
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/03 12:22:28
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Craig,
Copper and others, including me, are bothered by the controller lane display. It's because of that there is a genuine need to force events in a track to be the same channel. So bounce's current behavior causes pain for people who enter or edit events using some channel other than the track's channel, given the controller lane display's current behavior. Yes, there are unpleasant workarounds, like manually forcing all events back to your favorite channel after a bounce, or changing your channel setting to none before a bounce and changing it back after.
Beyond that, we have various opinions on what bounce should and shouldn't do based on what we think "bounce" means. If it weren't for the controller lane display I wouldn't worry much about what bounce does or doesn't do. I only slightly prefer it continues to work as always. On the other hand, I run into controller lane display issues even without using bounce, so that fix is where my priority would be.
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brundlefly
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/03 13:22:57
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Distilling everything here, and bringing in some suggestions from other threads, I would support something like the following set of changes to the PRV and related functions: 1. Don't apply forced MIDI channel to events on Bounce to Clip(s); yes, it's been that way for a long time, but it wasn't at one time, and it is technically inconsistent. * A separate "Apply Forced MIDI Channel to Events" command can be added if necessary, though Process > Find/Change suffices. 2. Make controller lanes honor forced MIDI channels. 3. Provide the following mutually exclusive controller lane display options: - "Show lanes for All tracks" - "Show lanes only for Visible tracks" (i.e. the Show/Hide button is enabled) - "Show lanes only for Active track" * Note that changing which tracks are "picked" to be shown in the PRV would still refresh the controller lanes, but it would honor the chosen display option so you'd only potentially see lanes added when using either of the first two options, and "Hiding" newly added tracks would automatically zap their lanes with the second option. 4. Make controller lane heights independently adjustable. 5. Provide an auto-zoom function for controller lane height. 6. Make the controller pane scrollable.
post edited by brundlefly - 2015/04/06 19:21:29
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robert_e_bone
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/03 16:39:28
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icontakt
Oh, this thread is now in the Feature & Ideas forum.
Hmm......I think the forum host could have waited a bit until the OP received a reply from support.
The behavior in question is now highly likely 'as intended,' though.
Yeah - the thread has bounced around - and I don't like doing that. If indeed, however unlikely, that Cakewalk indicates it is actually an error, then it can get moved back into Problem Reports. There were quite a few posts getting generated in the thread, and I wanted to try to keep that problem reports forum as clean as possible, so maximize any time spent by Cakewalk folks pulling things that are known to need the attention of the developers. I certainly did not mean to confuse anyone - just trying to protect an exceptionally precious resource - the developers time. Anyone who looks in problem reports will see the link here, so other than the thread being bounced around more than anybody would have liked, I think folks will be able to find it here. I apologize to anyone for any disruption I may have caused. I'll keep working on being better at things :) Bob Bone
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SquireBum
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/03 18:28:12
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I would like to add one additional suggestion for consideration to brundlefly's summary in #37: 7. Add an option in the PRV to only display a single MIDI data lane. - The option could be added to the PRV Display menu or the Controllers menu.
- The default data type for the single lane could be Velocity.
- The data type drop down list to the left of the lane would be used to select which existing data type to display.
- The "+" button would still be used to add additional lanes for existing or new data types if desired.
The functionality is similar to Hiding the Controller Pane, but the user would have the convenience of editing data in a lane rather than in the Note Pane. Rationale: Currently Sonar automatically creates a separate MIDI data lane for each unique data type that is present in the selected track(s). While this behavior may be useful to view all controllers that exist on a track, it may present more lanes than are useful to edit. The user is forced to manually remove all undesired data lanes with the "-" button. Closing and re-opening the PRV requires the user to repeat the manual data lane removal. Thanks, Ron
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bvideo
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/03 18:41:03
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News to me is I can't change the midi channel of controller events with the event inspector. I didn't know it's only a note inspector.
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icontakt
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/03 19:51:29
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bvideo
News to me is I can't change the midi channel of controller events with the event inspector. I didn't know it's only a note inspector.
Oh......yes, I just remembered why I use Find/Change after bouncing. 
Tak T. Primary Laptop: Core i7-4710MQ CPU, 16GB RAM, 7200RPM HDD, Windows 7 Home Premium OS (Japanese) x64 SP1Secondary Laptop: Core2 Duo CPU, 8GB RAM, 7200RPM HDD, Windows 7 Professional OS (Japanese) x64 SP1Audio Interface: iD14 (ASIO)Keyboard Controller/MIDI Interface: A-800PRODAW: SONAR Platinum x64 (latest update installed)
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icontakt
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/03 21:28:21
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The above suggestions by Dave and Ron are all good (so I gave a thumbs-up to both posts), but I have a feeling they'll take a few years to be implemented. I personally don't need suggestions #4-6, so hopefully the Bakers will work on the other suggestions first. robert_e_bone
I apologize to anyone for any disruption I may have caused. I'll keep working on being better at things :)
Don't apologize, Bob. It wasn't a big deal (I just wondered). 
Tak T. Primary Laptop: Core i7-4710MQ CPU, 16GB RAM, 7200RPM HDD, Windows 7 Home Premium OS (Japanese) x64 SP1Secondary Laptop: Core2 Duo CPU, 8GB RAM, 7200RPM HDD, Windows 7 Professional OS (Japanese) x64 SP1Audio Interface: iD14 (ASIO)Keyboard Controller/MIDI Interface: A-800PRODAW: SONAR Platinum x64 (latest update installed)
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robert_e_bone
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/04 00:56:10
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Thanks - I think overall that this thread has had good discussion - I like folks working through considerations of modifications to processes - process re-engineering.
In a past life in the IT world, one of the hats I wore was being on a team responsible for all kinds of pieces of the process of process re-engineering, dealing with around 1,000 developers contracted to the US Federal Government. Loads of fun. :)
Bob Bone
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williamcopper
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/05 13:00:50
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I missed a number of the recent posts, sorry, but I've found that 'bounce to track' with channel set to none does not preserve channel, though in a simple test just now, it did for me .. so maybe it's affected by something else. ALSO: in a 100-track project, do you really expect a person to change, one by one, all tracks to "none" and then attempt to reconstruct where the tracks originally pointed? Yet again, I'm afraid, people who do not use midi are trying to have opinions on how it is done. As to documentation, I could not find anything relevant.
post edited by williamcopper - 2015/04/05 13:11:44
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williamcopper
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/05 13:14:10
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And as to bouncing around of tracks, Bob Bone and others, I am pretty sure you hounded me over and over to "get a Cakewalk Problem Request Number" so that my problem reports would stay in the forum problem reports. I did it, finally, because PRV controller pane issues are such a big deal to me. And what happened, rationalizations aside? You put it back in the sonar forum, and people go all around minimizing it, saying it works as expected, etc etc etc.
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SquireBum
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/05 14:05:37
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Not to minimize the issue, but you can change the channel on all tracks in a couple of steps: - Select all tracks (Ctrl-A)
- Use the Quick Group feature by holding down the Ctrl key and change the Channel drop down on one of the tracks to "None".
This procedure works from the Inspector or from the Track Pane. Ron
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brundlefly
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/06 19:17:02
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williamcopper
In a 100-track project, do you really expect a person to change, one by one, all tracks to "none" and then attempt to reconstruct where the tracks originally pointed?
Although it is possible to change all the track channels to none in one go as pointed out, restoring the original assignments after bouncing is not feasible, rendering the approach impractical. Clearly the best workaround is just to run Process > Find Change as needed to set everything back to channel 1 periodically. Combine this with resisting the urge to bounce to clips before it's absolutely necessary, and this really shouldn't be such a big deal. I'm fine with this being in the Problem Reports area, but it doesn't really matter as the CWBRN is in place, and it will ultimately be up to the Bakers to decide whether to change it, regardless of whether they consider it a bug or an enhancement.
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williamcopper
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/08 05:12:08
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Right. 1. "All channels set to 1" is wimpy: sometimes channels are useful 2. "All channels set to a track's channel" is erroneous: sometimes a useful channel distinction has no relevant relationship to the particular interface between a midi track and an instrument, vst or hardware. 3. "Change of a channel" by bouncing is irritating, if the channel had meaning that needed to be preserved. 4. Avoiding bouncing of midi clips is dangerous, imo, though it may be a superstition. It's also a work-flow inhibitor, since now sonar prints a little "picture" at the end of every midi clip, obscuring the contents at the end in the project window .. in a large project a glance at a clip can be very informative, even in very small size, while looking at a Platinum logo has no useful purpose at all ... many clips, many Platinum logos. 5. There are only 16 possible midi channel numbers. Track counts go way higher, so there is necessary duplication if a fixed relation between track and channel is enforced (as by bounce to clips).
post edited by williamcopper - 2015/04/08 05:20:38
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azslow3
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/08 09:34:58
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After carefully reading all posts, I still do not understand for what event channel information is good in case it is in the track with output channel set:
1) In case the output channel is not set, bounce is not changing original events. Expected and good for multitembral tracks.
2) In case the output channel is set, the change in original events may be not expected but completely irrelevant since everything is converted to that channel on the fly in any case.
So, why someone need multichannel information in single instrument track?
While channel information comes from the track, it is not the same as bouncing volume automation for example. Because that is more "property" of the track then automation since it can not be automated (as with bank/program, I wish it could be, but that is a different topic).
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williamcopper
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/09 17:23:54
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From Kontakt 5 Reference manual: "Sampler Controls: MIDI" -- "Sets the MIDI port and channel this Group will respond to." IE: A channel can trigger specific sounds in an instrument. Drum maps are obvious candidates, but also string library articulations, legato transitions, many possible uses.
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azslow3
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/09 18:26:40
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williamcopper
From Kontakt 5 Reference manual: "Sampler Controls: MIDI" -- "Sets the MIDI port and channel this Group will respond to." IE: A channel can trigger specific sounds in an instrument. Drum maps are obvious candidates, but also string library articulations, legato transitions, many possible uses.
But all that works only in case you are not forcing MIDI channel. And in this case bounce is not modifying event. In case "force channel" is set, there is no different either the clip is bounced with modification or not. Even when your events have channel information, it will be changed before the event can be processed by VST.
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brundlefly
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/09 18:32:26
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azslow3
After carefully reading all posts, I still do not understand for what event channel information is good in case it is in the track with output channel set
The root of the problem is that lanes in the Controller pane of the PRV are differentiated by event channels as well as controller types and do not recognize the forced output channel setting. Since Bounce to Clip(s) applies the forced output channel to the events, if you do a lot of bouncing to clips, and subsequent copying of events between tracks, you can end up with the same controller type using several different channels on the same track. The forced output channel takes care of ensuring playback is all on one channel, but when you open that track in the PRV, it might have multiple lanes for the same controller type copied from other tracks. This can be confusing and problematic in terms of the number and size of controller lanes that get generated/re-generated when the PRV is refreshed by changing track selections, especially when you have many tracks with many controller types showing in the PRV at once.
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williamcopper
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/10 00:49:36
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Well said, brundlefly. I'd just add: the controller BY CHANNEL lanes proliferate so quickly in even a relatively small project, that the PRV Controller Pane is VIVIDLY and OBVIOUSLY bad: you see 10-20 or more "lines" - straight lines, with no information and no controllers visible. Absolutely useless and awkward to fix (one at a time, while the screen jumps each time you fix ONE of the 10-20 or more lines.)
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azslow3
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/10 06:26:55
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I completely agree with the request to make the Controller pane better. But it is different from the original topic subject. For my (noob) tasks, I would like either: - changing channel during bounce is also applied the same way on copy. So in case let say I copy clip with channel 2 to the track with "C1", everything is converted to channel 1 during pasting. Sure, in case of "C None", there should be no changes (easy to implement, just hook inside paste subroutine)
- or pane just combine all channels when track channel is fixed (harder to implement, requires logic and GUI part reworked).
For the mean time, I think there is a workaround: insert FX which force channel fixing the same way as SONAR does and keep "C None". That way the channel is converted on the fly while bounce is not converting events. I have googled at least once such plug-in, but I have not tested it yet... I have long time plan to write such DX myself and make the channel number as automation parameter. That creates a possibility to control articulations (in IK MP for example) live (using my CS plug-in...) without external channel "gymnastic" and record it as a track automation. Simple to write, but I have not found time yet.
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brundlefly
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/10 12:18:07
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azslow3
For the mean time, I think there is a workaround: insert FX which force channel fixing the same way as SONAR does and keep "C None".
In addition to ensuring that recorded MIDI events are sent with the correct channel information, the forced MIDI channel tells SONAR what channel to use when generating messages from MIDI track controls and automation envelopes for Volume, Pan, Bank, Patch, etc. I could be wrong, but I don't think those messages get processed by MFX, so you're going to lose that linkage. And those messages are sent on channel 1 by default when no channel is specified, so you'd have to avoid using that channel of a multitimbral synth.
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azslow3
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/10 17:52:29
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Bank/Patch change can be inserted explicitly. You are right, TrackDiag does not show them.
At the same time, track automations are detected by TrackDiag (applied before FX???), so MFX probably can change the channel.
In total, workarounds are rarely perfect...
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williamcopper
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/15 03:33:13
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Doing some light reading: Sonar Reference Guide, page 1346:
You can display notes on the fretboard based on the note event's MIDI channel. (Do not confuse this with the Track MIDI Channel). A single track can hold events on many different MIDI channels.
I believe this confirms: the OP is about a BUG, not a feature request.
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azslow3
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/04/15 08:22:31
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williamcopper
You can display notes on the fretboard based on the note event's MIDI channel. (Do not confuse this with the Track MIDI Channel). A single track can hold events on many different MIDI channels.
Is see nothing about bouncing or changing the MIDI channel in events in this statements.
I believe this confirms: the OP is about a BUG, not a feature request.
A bug is something which does not work as expected. All other users has confirmed that while some improvements in that part of SONAR are more then welcome, there is nothing unexpected in the way it works now.
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icontakt
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Re: CWBRN-32278 Midi 'bounce to clips' changes midi channel --- design fllaw or bug?
2015/05/01 09:35:54
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Also, if a MIDI track in previous versions of SONAR had a forced channel assignment, that channel would be applied to all channelized MIDI events when bouncing MIDI clips or saving a Format 1 Standard MIDI file. By default, SONAR will no longer re-channelize MIDI events during bounce operations. However, you can override the default behavior by adding the following line to the [WinCake] section of the Cakewalk.ini file:[WinCake]RechannelMIDI=11 = Re-channelize MIDI events0 = Do not re-channelize MIDI events when bouncing MIDI data The above is from the Dorchester release note. I think this thread contributed highly to the change. Now we're all happy (about bouncing MIDI).
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