Industry Standard Mixing Methods

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jonesresidence
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2015/06/17 12:11:47 (permalink)

Industry Standard Mixing Methods

Hey Everyone,
I've been messing around with sonar for years and I still consider myself a newbie. Seems like I have been stuck in the "I just can't get that pro sound" club forever. I'm convinced it's not my gear, so it must be my ears. So a few questions and I know it's not entirely a black and white thing with a cut in stone rulebook but I wondered if there is just basic things that people do to each track for each instrument. What is the industry standard for recording bass? What about guitars? Synths? What get's panned where? What stays in the center? I know I'm probably asking a loaded question. Here is my list of equipment:

 
Sonar Ver: X3 Producer
Interface: Focusrite 18i20
Monitors: Tannoy Reveal
Controller: Axiom 49
Drums: Addicitive Drums
Plugins: Guitar Rig 5, Melodyne, and all the other ones included with X3 Producer.
 
The kind of music I record is rock, country, blues, alt rock, folk kind of stuff. I've been looking at a lot of videos on youtube and the culprit to my issues may be compression and EQ as I cannot seem to wrap my head around how this works. Also I have been told that gain staging is a big one too. I guess this is where the academics of sound science come in as opposed to what I'm doing which is playing with dials and knobs "just to see what happens" and if the outcome is pleasing to my ears. So I guess I am wanting to take the next step to overcome my plateau. Let's not forget about mastering either, I know that is a huge ingredient that is missing in my final product which of course I do not understand the science of either.
 
My workflow goes something like this:
 
Set the metronome
Track guitars
Track vocals
Track bass
Synth Keys
Synth Drums
 
Play with level faders
Play with panning
Add effects and EQ to tracks
Have each track output to master bus
Maybe add some eq on the master bus and then eventually plateau and export to wav and then from there export to mp3 with audacity.
 
So with all that said, I need help. Who wants to point me in the right direction? 
 
#1

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    JayCee99
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 12:46:27 (permalink)
    Welcome to the forums.  I think the only way to get better sounding mixes is to learn all the different aspects of production and then practice.
     
    What I'd recommend is to google subjects like compression, EQ, mixing, and mastering audio.  There's hundreds of videos on Youtube and articles out there.  I've watched hour-long Youtube videos where audio engineers master a whole project which are very helpful.  Craig Anderton has written tons of articles for Sound on Sound magazine which come up online and can be read for free.  Also check out Cakewalk Blog which has good articles. 
     
    Good luck!

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    #2
    Pragi
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 13:11:07 (permalink)
    Welcome ,
    basicely there are no rules like an industry standard (that´s a Pro Tools advertising slogan,or?)
    for mixing a track. There are some hinds that work in a lot of productions,
    but not for every music style, genre aso. 
    On the most tracks (that´s me , OK ?) i´m :
     
    having an idea, better a mix plan were every musician(instrument) is "standing "in the mix.
    using the three dimensions (width (panning?), height (eq?),depth(reverb, delay) .
     
    -Using a low cut or High pass Eq on nearly every instrument- to get rid of bass mulm - on rock guit tracks mostly around 50 Herz,
    in metall and edm tracks 40 hz or lower.
     
    doubling the rythm guitars ( 2 times playing the same rythm- to get a naturelly delay?)- pan left and right-
    there can also be  different rythm on each side.
     
    leaving the Kick, Snare , bass (mono!) in the middle.
    also the main vocs and the solo instruments (.... )
     
    But there are no rules, and the best mixes imo are the mixes with 
    new ideas.
    regards
     
     
     
     
     
     
    post edited by Pragi - 2015/06/17 13:20:30
    #3
    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 13:13:08 (permalink)
    There are no shortcuts. Load reference songs in SONAR, analyze their frequency content with something like
    Voxengo SPAN, compare to your own tracks etc.
    There isn't anything like "industry standard for recording bass/guitar/anything", there really isn't.
    The most important thing in creating good mixes is giving every instrument enough room regarding frequencies.
    Regarding panning, propably the only consensus is that bass (and preferably anything under about 200 Hz) and kick are always centered.
    Say, if you record a piano part played with both hands, the lower part clashes most likely with bass guitar so much,
    that you need to practically eliminate it. Guitars and vocals don't need anything under 100-150 Hz, so cut it out. 
    Cutting everything under 40 Hz in master bus may clear out useless rumble. Sidechaining may help to get extra separation for pumping kicks etc etc.
     
    It's better to compress slightly in several stages (on track level, then on project level) instead of smashing all at a time. Often some volume automation is good before compression.
    Gain staging matters, but I've never considered it a biggie in my workflow. When my track output levels are appropriate (not too hot to give room for moving up or down when necessary) so that everything works in master bus, I don't give one thought separately to gain staging.
     
    I'm sure there are plenty of guides, videos and tutorials about compressing, EQ and such on the internet. I doubt it's usefull to start copy-pasting them here. If those FXs remain misty to you after watching the videos, it might take a lot of text to explain them here :o)  The site www.tweakheadz.com used to be very useful to me a few years back. There were very well written guides about most anything home recording related. This http://downloads.izotope.com/guides/iZotope-Mixing-Guide-Principles-Tips-Techniques.pdf Izotopes mixing guide isn't bad either.
     
    You just need to patiently play with compressors and EQs untill you can hear what they do to what kind of audio material. If you don't hear and see how they work, there's no way we can know what sounds good for the song you're working on. And there's always the question about your monitoring quality. Even with quite usable monitor speakers a really bad room can make mixing almost impossible. Then you need to compare the mix with headphones, speaker, car stereos and any equipment at your disposal. And of course, use reference tracks.
     
    Books like Roey Izhakis "Mixing Audio" are really useful. It comes with an audio CD with sound examples.
     
     

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    The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
    #4
    NeoSoul
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 13:30:08 (permalink)
    OP - would you be willing to post an example of your work?  I think we would be blindly assuming where the "gap" might be without such a reference.  
     
     
    #5
    dwardzala
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 13:35:17 (permalink)
    I just ran across a good article on Harmony Central called 6 Reasons Why Your Recordings Suck.  Without hearing your songs or seeing your space/techniques, I suspect that you might be plagued by several of these.
     
    Kalle's advice above is excellent especially the book recommendation.

    Dave
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    #6
    wst3
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 13:44:53 (permalink)
    as others have pointed out, there are no standards. But I think the best advice I ever received was to know what I wanted the mix to sound like before I started tracking. That might sound a little strange, and it isn't meant to preclude happy accidents, but if you start out with a sound in your head it makes the entire process go much more smoothly.
     
    The second bit of advice I'd offer is pick one or two compressors, one or two EQs, one or two delays, etc. Learn what they do and how they work. Once you get a couple under your belt it is much easier to add more to the arsenal.

    -- Bill
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    #7
    charlyg
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 13:45:46 (permalink)
    Are you getting tone and effects recorded/mic'd, or are you playing in dry and using plugins for tone and effects? I am getting great results in letting the VST stuff get the tone. Of course, I am in the same boat as you, longtime Cakewalk licensee, but just now getting serious. Just a thought from another noob.

     
     
    #8
    Lynn
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 13:52:24 (permalink)
    As stated above, why not put your mixes on the Songs forum for evaluation?  The people there are friendly and eager to help.  You may be closer than you think and only need a few small adjustments to get what you desire.  You will need to  increase your post count to be able to post your own song, but that can easily be achieved by listening to other songs and commenting on them until you reach the minimum number to post your own songs.  I think you need five posts to do this.  I'll be looking for you.

    All the best,
    Lynn

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    www.soundclick.com/lynnwilson

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    #9
    konradh
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 15:06:29 (permalink)
    Some basic things:
    1-Carve out space for the kick and bass.  Example:  If you want the low energy to come from the kick, then high-pass filter the bass around 60 or so and let the kick own that space.  Maybe boost the bass around 1K or so to bring out the notes.  (You'll have to test whether 1K is the right area for you.)
    2-Watch out for too much build up around 300-400 hz.  That can make stuff muddy.  I usually cut the kick some there.  Some people say to boost the bass there but that doesn't usually work for me.  You may notice that the ProChannel (in X1, anyway) has a frequency in the EQ defaulted to 317hz.  Might indicate that is a popular trouble area.
    3-For acoustic guitars, 600-800 hz can make the guitar sound boxy.  I often cut a tad around 800 and boost just a little way up high (like 10khz).
    4-Look on the Internet to see what the frequencies of the lowest notes are for various instruments as a guide to high-pass filtering.  For example, there is almost nothing useful in a guitar below 100 hz.  You can often try using a HPF and keep raising the frequency until you hear some body or depth missing: then back off a little.  I stress HPF because you can eat up a lot of bandwidth in your mix with frequencies that have no musical value.
    5-People say cheap reverb is a bad thing, but I am a very light user of reverb and I hate plate which most people like for vocals (and drums).  Lexicon is my go-to.
    6-Arrangement can be a bigger problem that the mix. I'm sure you don't do this, but I have heard people cut stuff with piano, organ, guitar, synth, and strings all playing stuff centered around middle C and it just gets really mushed together.  Early Beatles had very little technology on their records (although admittedly they were using great vintage mics placed by world class engineers), but their mixes sound valid today.  Even their Ed Sullivan performances which didn't have much tweaking sound good because the arrangements were very clever.
     
    One thing that would help is to let us know what bands or records you think sound good.  Dragon Force, Taylor Swift, and Willie Nelson are going to have very different sounds and mix techniques.  I sometimes A/B with a CD that I don't particularly like but that has the same general instrumentation and that sounds good.
     
    By the way, you can listen to a few songs on my current album and, if they sound horrible to you, disregard everything I just said. There are smarter people than me on this forum. themightykonrad.com
    post edited by konradh - 2015/06/17 15:13:19

    Konrad
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    #10
    Resonant Serpent
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 15:42:16 (permalink)
    Industry standards? No. Not really except proper gain staging, and even that goes out the window sometimes.
     
    Genre standards? Yes. They exist. I don't listen to, or create any of the genres you've listed, except the fringes of rock and electronics like black metal and industrial. I'd find out if there's a genre based mixing book or tutorial you can check out. 
     
    This would do well to get you up to speed:
     
    http://www.groove3.com/str/mixing-rock.html
     

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    Zargg
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 16:24:04 (permalink)
    Hi. The thing that helped me get (in my eyes / ears), was recording at lower volumes. Not so much the recording it self (sounded ok by itself), but when I started processing them (I wanted everything to sound as good as it could on its own), they overloaded most plugins. That (for me) resulted in a quite thin sound.
    As others said, you could upload a song for review. Lots of brilliant people here, that will give you great feedback.
     
    Or for basic recording techniques, head over to http://therecordingrevolution.com/
    Best of luck.
     
     
     

    Ken Nilsen
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    #12
    Deon_C
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 16:36:44 (permalink)
    All good advice here. One of the big eye openers for me in this department is making sure the initial sounds chosen are right for the song and mesh well together with the other instruments in the first place.

    No ammount of eq or compression will force a square peg in a round hole. If a sound is good in isolation but not in the mix, then its not the right sound for the song.
    #13
    Zargg
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 16:56:15 (permalink)
    Deon_C
    All good advice here. One of the big eye openers for me in this department is making sure the initial sounds chosen are right for the song and mesh well together with the other instruments in the first place.

    No ammount of eq or compression will force a square peg in a round hole. If a sound is good in isolation but not in the mix, then its not the right sound for the song.

    This is good advice

    Ken Nilsen
    Zargg
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    #14
    konradh
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 17:20:55 (permalink)
    To go along with Deon, I think it is important to have a mix that sounds good before you use any compression.  That will not save a mix and should only be a slight enhancement.
     
    Back to the topic of arrangement, I don't know if I started saying this back in my studio session days, or if I picked it up from someone, but either way, it is true that if the rhythm section doesn't feel good, the record can't be saved.
     
    Based on the genres you list, you may not have a lot of instruments besides the rhythm section' but it is true that a good feel with bass, guitar, and drums (and any basic keyboard backing part) is crucial. I use acoustic guitar on 90% of my songs, and I spend a long time just listening to guitar bass and drums.
    I know this is getting a little bit off the original question, but just thought it might help.  Maybe someone reading this thread is focusing attention on the wrong things.
     
    I start mixing with the kick and bass guitar, then add in the other drums and the rhythm guitar.  And I may mute any one of those three at times to see how it feels.  From there I add vocals for a rough level.  Then I take vocals out for a while while I build up the rest of the track.
     
    Probably not the only or even best way to do it, but that's my drill.
     
    Regarding gain-stagin (and this will get us way off topic), I try to keep each stage in range for mix flexibility, but in the digital realm, I'm not sure how much that alters sound once you're in the box.

    Konrad
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    #15
    kevinwal
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 17:52:31 (permalink)
    Rank hobbyist amateur here, but I have learned some things that have reduced overall suckage considerably in my mixes.
     
    - Listen to the tracks a few times after tracking. Note what's too loud or too quiet.
    - Get all the levels right, or at least relatively even across the mix.
     
    Then apply the tips on panning and centering rhythm, drums and vocals from other posts above.
     
    Without eq, compression or anything else, it should sound pretty okay at this point. Pure effin magic.
     
    The other thing is to use reference tracks that capture the vibe your after. If you have Izotope Ozone, it can analyze and apply eq settings to your mix based on a reference track's eq. You can learn a great deal from that.
    #16
    batsbrew
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 17:54:01 (permalink)
    i find that mixing is highly personel....
     
    and you are either good at it, or you aren't.
     
     
    learn as many techniques as possible...
    and focus on training your ear to understand what it is, that you are actually hearing.
     
     

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    #17
    konradh
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 18:10:11 (permalink)
    A lot of engineers or producers bring in someone else to mix.  Most of us don't have that luxury.

    Konrad
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    #18
    tlw
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 20:25:04 (permalink)
    Listen to lots of commercial recordings through your DAW monitoring setup. Especially recordings that have the kind of sound and feel you're after. That way you find out what your own mixes should sound like through the same setup. It can even be worth loading a commercial track into Sonar along with your project and routing it direct to an output bus (so it bypasses the master bus completely) to give you something to compare your mix to.

    Be aware of the strengths and weaknesses of your monitoring system. The smaller Reveals for example tend to be good at mid-range frequencies but roll off very quickly below 200Hz and lack treble. In that kind of situation a reasonable (don't have to cost a fortune) pair of headphones can be very useful as a tool to find out what's going on in the deeper end of the bass. Just don't mix entirely by headphones, they are very deceptive in many ways.

    Never mix for too long without a break, ears get tired.

    Watch videos and read articles, books, and above all else manuals for the things you are using. Make notes of anything useful and refer to them often. Learn about the technology you are using, what it does, how the controls work and why you might want to use it at all.

    It's a slow process with a steep learning curve which we are all on, even those among us who've made a living from engineering and producing for years. So set yourself attainable goals. Don't aim for the "perfect mix" immediately, instead aim for "a mix that sounds good on my monitors". When you can hit that target aim for "a mix that sounds good on my monitors and also good through my hi-fi, even if its not quite the same", and so on.

    Finally, try to avoid presets, especially on eq and compression. Someone else's eq preset might sound good on their bass in their song, but you are dealing with your bass in your song which might (probably will) need different treatment. Compressor presets are even worse because how a compressor reacts depends on the volume and frequency range of the audio going in, the frequency range and the transients it contains.

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    #19
    Anderton
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 21:32:14 (permalink)
    Lots of good advice here. I'll add something flippant but true in many ways: All that matters is the vocals  
     
    Get those right, then have everything else in the mix support them...until an instrumental solo happens, then everything should support that.
     
    A few more thoughts:
    • The most important mixer button is the mute button. The fewer the number of tracks, the greater their importance.
    • Mastering can do amazing things.
    • Tracks fit together like jigsaw puzzle pieces. If one track rules a frequency range, the other tracks can't.
    • Compression is overrated, limiting is underrated.
    • There are four different curves in the QuadCurve EQ. Choosing the right one can make the difference between a track that sounds great and one that doesn't.
    • Too little reverb is better than too much reverb.
    • Bass likes a reasonable amount of high frequency boost so it doesn't get obscured by the kick.
     

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #20
    charlyg
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 21:51:00 (permalink)
    Not exactly relevant to the topic, but I find the term mixing too broad to grasp what I am actually doing. I like how the Groove 3 Explained video lists them.
    Recording
    Editing
    Arranging
    Mixing
    It keeps me focused on what I am supposed to be doing and get it done, and not just flitting from one activity to another. 
     
    My workflow is I get a rhythm guitar track and put a drum loop to it. Then I record new guitar track with drums(John plays better to drum than to click). I then add bass, We record vocals, a quick lead, another rhythm guitar track(usually different guitar), and finally  dial in the lead guitar.
     
    This week I have been messing around with  guitar and vocal tracks. The one idea that really sounded good was to convert to stereo, hard pan each one, and then clone mono track and leave that one in the middle. It was the same with the rhythm guitars. It really adds width, but without the extra cloned track in the middle, the focus seemed to wander. Now I may not leave it that way, but in experimenting with re-enforcing the vocal and spreading out the guitar, it seemed to work. I hope the resident experts will let me know if I will run into problems down the road with this technique.
     
    Like I said, I'ma noob too, so I'm just throwing out ideas.
    post edited by charlyg - 2015/06/17 23:59:43

     
     
    #21
    jonesresidence
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/17 23:18:49 (permalink)
    Everyone, 
     
    Thanks for all the great information. Here is a post of the most current project I am working on and this will give you an idea of what level I'm at. It's not letting me post a link to soundcloud. I think I have to post more. 
    post edited by jonesresidence - 2015/06/17 23:28:19
    #22
    konradh
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/18 00:10:38 (permalink)
    Link seems to be missing...?

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #23
    konradh
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/18 00:18:20 (permalink)
    Craig "Sir George Martin" Anderton is correct as usual, although I would like to add my two cents on the vocals.  A vocal does not have to be technically great to work.  Bob Dylan and Tiny Tim are two of many examples.  I would say though that they got by because they sounded like they *meant* to sing that way.  If people had thought they were trying to sing "well" but were failing, they would never have sold a record. Go to a karaoke bar and listen to an off-key singer trying to pull off a Whitney Houston song.  On the other hand, Willie Nelson's weird nasal voice is loved by millions (although not by me).
     
    As a songwriter, I am always going to say that the song is more important than anything else, but what Craig says about the vocal is pretty much what most industry pros say. (In my defense, I don't think Bob Dylan would have made it putting his voice to Besame Mucho.)

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #24
    scook
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/18 00:22:52 (permalink)
    The user is too new with too low a post count to add links to posts. When the user account ages to the point of gaining the ability to create links, they should post links to songs in a new thread here http://forum.cakewalk.com/Songs-f89.aspx
     
    I would also recommend posting further questions regarding techniques in this area http://forum.cakewalk.com/Techniques-f90.aspx. It may be worthwhile to browse this area, there are many threads already discussing these questions there.
    #25
    jonesresidence
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/18 00:38:01 (permalink)
    Yeah, I have to post more to be able to share links. I will have to continue this when I get the post count up. Thanks again guys. I love that I have this resource.
    #26
    konradh
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/18 09:07:59 (permalink)
    jonesresidence, Can you PM me a link to your music?

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #27
    charlyg
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/18 09:14:32 (permalink)
    Ideas for post count increase.
    Comment on everything, ask a ton of questions(the answers come fast here), crack a few jokes once in a while to keep it light.
    Try not to argue with the experts.. I can get a "tad" stubborn at times with them, but I'm learning.
     
    I have also tried to be helpful to newer folks than me. Sometimes I am closer to the language, being one myself.

     
     
    #28
    Blackiejames7
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/18 11:04:50 (permalink)
    A lot of what your final result will be is what you want it to be as the artist / producer. Forget about the loudness wars it's more about achieving a well balanced quality recording that sounds like a professional recording.  Unless you are doing electronic or trance music that is destine for the dance club and played at extreme volumes then go for what sounds good to you and your potential audience.  There is nothing like a well balanced well mixed track.  I record a wide variety of musical styles from blues to rock to jazz and classic rock and what I go for is a live feel to my recordings.  I want the songs to sound as if my listeners are in a great listening room or small venue and the band is playing right in front of them.  I want them to hear and feel a natural balance and depth but without the over production.  I use limiting and compression wisely and various effects effectively and never drench the tracks with too much of any one thing.  Let the tracks breathe and be part of the big picture.
     
    Blackie
    #29
    jonesresidence
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    Re: Industry Standard Mixing Methods 2015/06/18 11:19:42 (permalink)

    #30
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