nomad
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Inputs: All Sound Card or External Preamp?
Hello everyone,
I am just putting together a new home studio with Sonar 4 PE and I'm trying to figure out which sound card I want to get AND whether I should (If I can) get a soundcard that fills all my requirements OR an external mic preamp to go into the sound card.
I'm going to need a minimum of 8 I/O (As I do plan on multiple mic sittuations and live recordings), MIDI port(s), Phantom Power, I hope to do a good amount of true 5.1 surround sound mixes and ideally all the inputs should be XLR (Have an XLR option).
The XLR seems like a given to me, but I've been surprised to see no mention of it in many card descriptions and only 1/4" inputs being mentioned... at least on the cards I have browsed through thus far. (albeit I have become a tad overwhelmed)
I'm looking for some advice for all of this.
I've always been a performer/writer that simply turns machines on and uses them... I'm not all that knowledgabe on the technical-side of things... although I am looking forward to advancing that knowledge while I work with the new equipment I will be getting. (I've been stuck working with Alesis ADAT's and am finally entering the world of greater freedom!)
I'm buying a new PC for this and I'm really feeling stuck on what to do as far as sound cards and/or external preamps...
My budget is limited, but it's good enough to get me some high quality stuff... I do believe.
So, I'm looking from the top down, I suppose, as far as quality and prices go.
I'm sure many things may end up being farther down towards the middle, but hopefully any compromises I make will be in the right places/with the right components.
Thanks for any help!
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jack_holeman
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RE: Inputs: All Sound Card or External Preamp?
2005/09/08 20:30:12
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Good question! And, what if everything changes over night? I have hooked Cakewalk / Sonar products up to a single midi device for each instrument sound, mixing the 16 track audio down by hand. I have used the straight computer approach with nothing but sound fonts and waves. I STILL LIKE THE DIVERSITY OF USING EVERYTHING ALL AT ONCE AND SETTING THE MIXES BY HAND. AND, THE OLD WORK STATIONS, ALESIS, KURZWEIL, ENSONIQ, AND THE KORG PRODUCTS SUCH AS THE TRINITY AND T-1 ARE SO MUCH FUN, WHEN YOU RUN THE CABLES INTO A 32 TRACK MIXER AND A TWO, FOUR OR EIGHT TRACK RECORDING DEVICE FOR SURROUND SOUND. YEA! I BEEN THERE. HAVE YOU EVER USED THE AUDIO TRACK OF AN EIGHT TRACK RECORDER TO SEND MOTOR COMMANDS TO ROBOTICS, PYROTECHNICS, MOVING TABLES AND TALKING MOOSE HEADS? (The talking Jackelope on the bar is a nice touch for the 15 minute intermissions that the bands take)
post edited by jack_holeman - 2005/09/08 20:41:48
Heckle and Jeckle were magpies who sang songs to lizards and bar flies... Out of the Blue a buzzard came through and turned all the music to cow pies! And that was an improvement! Post midi at http://groups.msn.com/imaginationonfile/
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bill durham
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RE: Inputs: All Sound Card or External Preamp?
2005/09/08 23:03:44
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ORIGINAL: nomad
Hello everyone,
I am just putting together a new home studio with Sonar 4 PE and I'm trying to figure out which sound card I want to get AND whether I should (If I can) get a soundcard that fills all my requirements OR an external mic preamp to go into the sound card.
This is almost an apples and oranges scenario. Having a good mic pre is a given, regardless of the soundcard you have so your OR doesn't make sense to me. Mic pre vs soundcard isn't an OR question I guess is what I'm saying.
I'm going to need a minimum of 8 I/O (As I do plan on multiple mic sittuations and live recordings), MIDI port(s), Phantom Power, I hope to do a good amount of true 5.1 surround sound mixes and ideally all the inputs should be XLR (Have an XLR option).
You might take a look at the Delta 1010 cards...I think that they have XLR inputs. The problem with XLR's is they take up a lot of real estate in the mfg process. If you can get the same results from a TRS format connector..whether its 1/4" or even 3.5mm like headsets...you can put more of them in the same space.
The XLR seems like a given to me, but I've been surprised to see no mention of it in many card descriptions and only 1/4" inputs being mentioned... at least on the cards I have browsed through thus far. (albeit I have become a tad overwhelmed)
I'm looking for some advice for all of this.
There are lots of options re the computer....AMD or Intel being the biggest decision. You will get just about equal recommendations for each. Some common things for either though is at least a gig of Ram, 2 hardrives..one for OS and programs and one for audio data. Also, make sure the drives are 7200 RPM.
Thanks for any help!
I hope I provided some!! BD
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AT
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RE: Inputs: All Sound Card or External Preamp?
2005/09/09 00:30:18
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You might want to check out the PreSonus FirePod. It has 8x8 analog with 1 digital i/o. It uses firewire (I put a card in my desktop), and has 8 very nice mic preamps for each input, two of them can sub for DI boxes. It works nice with SHS and HS, drivers that work and on my 1.8 AMD system at home run at 6 millisecond latency. It switches phantom power in groups of 4, and has midi i/o. It sounds perfect for your needs - I know it is for mine.
post edited by AT - 2005/09/09 00:38:09
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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nomad
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RE: Inputs: All Sound Card or External Preamp?
2005/09/09 16:00:51
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Aha...
thank you very much for the help thus far!
I was under the impression that I could grab a sound card that would somehow replace the need for a seperate pre-amp... perhaps some cards come with a preamp (and that's what was confusing me)?
Heh, I'm so close to getting everything, I've become overwhelmed. (Deep breaths...)
I'm just SO looking forward to being able to lay down what I want to, without dealing with tape and a small limit of initial tracks.
So, please excuse me for my air-headedness (I'm not always like this)... what exactly do I need to complete my instrument's/mic's interface with the PC?
I will be using an Intel. Some of the speciffics may change depending on how the soundcard and premap fit into my budget, but it should be a Pentium 4 3.2Ghz or higher; I'll definately get the best HT and 7200 RPM... 2 Gigs of RAM is my plan and I suppose a video card with 256MB...
So, I need to figure out the interface and the sound card.
Suggestions and rudimentary information are both welcome without any resentment from my part, heh.
I'm just so used to plugging in and turning on the machine.
Figuring out which pieces I need to build the machine is apparently making me a little nutty.
Also, I'm sorry if I missed this type of info posted elsewhere... I did look, but perhaps not as hard as I should have.
Thanks again (And yes you have helped already)!
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bill durham
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RE: Inputs: All Sound Card or External Preamp?
2005/09/09 16:42:06
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Nomad,
glad to help and I am impressed by your enthusiasm!
It is a truelly cool thing to be able to create music and record it with a computer!
But....and a big one at that. Unless you are the luckiest person in the world...you are going to have some bumps in the road getting your system to work the way you want it too. Just have patience when it happens.
Also...you describe the "interface" and the "soundcard" as they are two things...they are the same thing. There are at least 2 ways that these work...either a PCI card that is internal to your computer or a totally external soundcard that connects to your computer via USB or Firewire if you have it. Some of the PCI cards have an external breakout box for all of the converters and the I/O connectors. There are almost as many opinions as to the best way to go as there are people on the web. Most everybody seems to agree that one of the biggest determining factors on buying a sound card is the quality of the drivers that support the interface. There are companies that make hardware that has great features, but because the drivers cause so many problems it isn't worth the hassle. I'm sure that guys will chime in about this..that have had both good and bad experiences. I have an M-Audio AP2496 PCI card in my computer and have had good luck with it from day one. It doesn't have the I/O you are looking for, but there might be a product in their line that does. Their drivers get pretty much universal approval.
Some folks say that the PCI bus cards are a dying format and that Firewire is the way to go... of the external formats to date...it is the fastest which translates to more tracks in your project.
Nate will tell you that USB 2.0 is the ****...and I can't argue with him because I don't have a soundcard that uses that format. But other folks have said it isn't fast enough for a lot of tracks....YMMV
Good luck and looking forward to hearing some of your tunes
BD
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nomad
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RE: Inputs: All Sound Card or External Preamp?
2005/09/09 18:46:22
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ORIGINAL: bill durham
Nomad,
glad to help and I am impressed by your enthusiasm!
It is a truelly cool thing to be able to create music and record it with a computer!
Glad you were able to see that, instead of focusing on my mistakes, hehe
But....and a big one at that. Unless you are the luckiest person in the world...you are going to have some bumps in the road getting your system to work the way you want it too. Just have patience when it happens.
Oh, I know that very well, hehe. And from all gathered reports thus far, I am indeed not the luckiest! 
I'm just eager to have the machine in front of me, so that I can start dealing with the problems that will come. The longer it takes to get the actual parts, the further down the road it will be when I can actually put them to use
Also...you describe the "interface" and the "soundcard" as they are two things...they are the same thing. There are at least 2 ways that these work...either a PCI card that is internal to your computer or a totally external soundcard that connects to your computer via USB or Firewire if you have it. Some of the PCI cards have an external breakout box for all of the converters and the I/O connectors. There are almost as many opinions as to the best way to go as there are people on the web. Most everybody seems to agree that one of the biggest determining factors on buying a sound card is the quality of the drivers that support the interface. There are companies that make hardware that has great features, but because the drivers cause so many problems it isn't worth the hassle. I'm sure that guys will chime in about this..that have had both good and bad experiences. I have an M-Audio AP2496 PCI card in my computer and have had good luck with it from day one. It doesn't have the I/O you are looking for, but there might be a product in their line that does. Their drivers get pretty much universal approval.
Some folks say that the PCI bus cards are a dying format and that Firewire is the way to go... of the external formats to date...it is the fastest which translates to more tracks in your project.
Nate will tell you that USB 2.0 is the ****...and I can't argue with him because I don't have a soundcard that uses that format. But other folks have said it isn't fast enough for a lot of tracks....YMMV
Good luck and looking forward to hearing some of your tunes
BD
I think that's the biggest problem I am having... "There are almost as many opinions as to the best way to go as there are people on the web". Heh, seriously... that's why I've frozen. There are so many options and I bet I could ask 100 people and get 100 different products reccommended to me. So, I think I would like to go with a PCI Card with an external box with all the converters that I need. I just figure I should choose one and go with it... trying to bring reason to that decision is seeming less likely. I'm still shocked about the XLR inputs. I'll have to get converters for those I suppose... unless anyone knows of an external box that already has XLR's. Last time I used XLR-1/4" converters (And this was a while ago), they were big, clunky long things that put too much weight on the actual input ports. Anyhoo, I'm looking into what you all have suggested thus far... I'm sure I'll be around these forums and hopefully I'll have good things to report! Thanks again!
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Rigel Russell
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RE: Inputs: All Sound Card or External Preamp?
2005/09/14 12:14:26
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snip. . . soundcard that fills all my requirements OR an external mic preamp to go into the sound card.
- minimum of 8 I/O (As I do plan on multiple mic sittuations and live recordings),
- MIDI port(s),
- Phantom Power, I hope to do a good amount of true 5.1 surround sound mixes and
- ideally all the inputs should be XLR (Have an XLR option).
snip. . . I've always been a performer/writer that simply turns machines on and uses them... I'm not all that knowledgabe on the technical-side of things... although I am looking forward to advancing that knowledge while I work with the new equipment I will be getting. (I've been stuck working with Alesis ADAT's and am finally entering the world of greater freedom!)
I'm buying a new PC for this and I'm really feeling stuck on what to do as far as sound cards and/or external preamps...
My budget is limited, but it's good enough to get me some high quality stuff... I do believe.
So, I'm looking from the top down, I suppose, as far as quality and prices go.
When you say XLR, you're probably thing mic-preamp. Not alot of options with 8 built-in preamps, and when you're going for higher-quality stuff, better separate preamps are available. Mid-range PCI-card recommendations: Echo Layla 3G - $419 here - has 2 built-in pres (XLR) - ADAT I/O for transfers or expandability (up to 16 inputs!) M-Audio Delta 1010 - about $400 - 8 balanced TRS I/O and stereo SPDIF Both excellent audio interfaces. The ADAT I/O makes the Layla 3G a higher recommendation, esp in your case with an ADAT history. Plus, I believe the converters are a little better than the Delta 1010. I have the 1010 and I'm pretty happy for the moment. When it comes to preamps, you could get an inexpensive mixing board that will have the 6 or 8 mic pres in it, and also use it for monitor routing, etc. This would probably be the most cost-effective (cheap). Standalone preamps are available from under $100 to well over $1000 per channel. I use Mackie VLZ-series board preamps, plus a one channel Focusrite, and 2-ch ART preamp. Use the forums SEARCH capability to look for preamp threads - lots of opinions out there. Happy tracking! Rigel
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Robomusic
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RE: Inputs: All Sound Card or External Preamp?
2005/09/14 14:14:35
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One setup i have seen using the delta 1010 ($199 right now at musicians friend.com) is to link that to a behringer Behringer ADA8000 Ultragain Pro-8, about $230 at MF this will give you 8 I/O and decent Pres, for a reasonable price, also on the 1010 these can be chained together up to three, that means 8, 16 or 24 track recording
The other option, is EMU 1820M you will get both ave reviews and total rips on this, system, some love it others hate it, I believe the bad press comes from a set of bad drivers that it came wit, many say that is resolved, but it give a lot for the money, $399 at MF
As was mentioned everything is opinion, there are many systems out there, Presonus is nice and can be connected together to get 16 , but there are a few issues, and also Mackie is coming out with a firewire front that has superior Pre Amps do your research and see what meets your needs.
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sinc
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RE: Inputs: All Sound Card or External Preamp?
2005/09/14 21:11:41
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Nate will tell you that USB 2.0 is the ****...and I can't argue with him because I don't have a soundcard that uses that format. But other folks have said it isn't fast enough for a lot of tracks....YMMV
USB 1.0 and 1.1 are the ones to avoid. Both USB 2.0 and Firewire are fast enough for something on the order of 100 simultaneous tracks at 96kHz sample rate - more than fast enough for most users. (Firewire 2 is twice as fast as Firewire, but very few audio interfaces currently use Firewire 2.) USB 2.0 has faster raw speed than Firewire, but is brokered by the computer CPU, so it takes up CPU time that Firewire doesn't. It can also suffer "hickups" if your CPU is heavily loaded. This means that its effective speed tends to be roughly the same as Firewire, give or take. For most people there is no noticeable difference in performance - both work fine. USB tends to be cheaper. The main reason to go with Firewire is that so many other devices - from digital cameras to printers to flash drives to dongles - use USB ports, so you might want to leave USB ports free for those other uses. Also, if you have an external USB hard drive that you are using for Audio, you will probably want to avoid USB audio interfaces.
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sinc
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RE: Inputs: All Sound Card or External Preamp?
2005/09/14 21:57:17
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I will be using an Intel. Some of the speciffics may change depending on how the soundcard and premap fit into my budget, but it should be a Pentium 4 3.2Ghz or higher; I'll definately get the best HT and 7200 RPM... 2 Gigs of RAM is my plan and I suppose a video card with 256MB...
If you can, you may want to get a dual-drive system - a good setup is an 80GB for the primary, and a larger one for audio.
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nomad
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RE: Inputs: All Sound Card or External Preamp?
2005/09/15 11:33:51
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I have to admit... I thought I was ready to make some final decisions...
Now I am stuck again.
I thought the Delta 1010 would match my needs (It sounds like it's specs and it's compatability/reliability would over-ride my want for XLR inputs... I could just get XLR female to Balanced 1/4" Male cable/converters and I'd have exactly what I was after)... however, the comments about syncing with an ADAT really have me thinking it over again.
I have a question... IF I went with the Delta 1010, what would I have to get in order to be able to sync up with an ADAT?
I would definately like to be able to throw raw tracks from some of my ADAT recordings into Sonar, reproduce/remix/add some stuff, etc.
I didn't think that would be a problem if I just got the Delta 1010, but I actually hadn't looked into it/didn't consider that it may not be do-able.
Thanks for catching that, Rigel.
I'm having a hard time grasping all of the things I know I should be considering during this process.
Just so many options and so many varying degrees of "almost good enough" and "do-able workarounds" that I seem to be running myself in circles.
I am sure eventually it will all lead me to some sort of good decision (Not quite a technical nirvanna).
Budget-wise... I was willing to go for the Delta 1010 price and hoping to not have to spend any more on any other input boxes.
And I'm talking the "Delta 1010" NOT the Delta 1010LT which is $199.
Seems like the lowest figure I've found for the Delta 1010 has been $380 or so...
I think I can manage to go $500 to complete the soundcard/input box(es) portion of my setup.
So, at the moment, I'm confused... but I figure I'll come out of this confusion with better questions and one day answers...
Thanks again everyone.
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Rigel Russell
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RE: Inputs: All Sound Card or External Preamp?
2005/09/15 14:37:52
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Just in case you're not aware - when you want mic inputs, you'll need preamps. Adapter plug will not do the job. If you have XLR line-level souces like certain keyboards, mixers, processors, then the adaptor will work. For your budget, consider these: Echo Layla 3G - $419 here - has 2 built-in pres (XLR) + ADAT I/O Behringer Eurorack UB1222FX-PRO Mixer - $179.99 here Behringer HA4700 Powerplay® Pro Headphone Amp - $109.99 here - You could get this later, but if you're recording people other than yourself, they'll need headphone inputs. - The Layla has 2 preamps, the mixer has 6 more - I'd 1/4" TS cables (reg guitar/line cables) to the first click of the inserts on the mixer channels to access only the preamp and run those to the inputs of the Layla You'll have your 8 XLR inputs (with mic preamps) and an ADAT interface too. I use a Mackie mixer in a similar way with my Delta 1010 and it works well. I bring the first two outputs from the soundcard back into the mixer for monitoring. Hope things are clearing up, rather than getting foggier . . . Rigel
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nomad
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RE: Inputs: All Sound Card or External Preamp?
2005/09/17 14:06:14
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Thank you all again for the help... I'm soaking everything in still, but yes, I do believe things are becoming clearer again, hehe. Very slowly, mind you, but I've come to accept that I will take my time and do this right. Rigel, I actually just replied in another thread of mine that you posted in. I'll just add here that I would prefer to only have one simple input device, but I am understanding that that may not serve my wants best and I will have to go with what ends up giving me the best options. So I am definately considering all the options presented here so far. Oh and I am planning on getting two harddrives now... I was considering partitioning one (At least until I added a second one), but now I'm thinking I'll just take care of it right off the bat. Thanks again everyone!
post edited by nomad - 2005/09/17 14:15:34
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