Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500

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Epinoia
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2010/03/21 05:39:01 (permalink)

Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500

Hello all,

I just bought this Thomann branded Medeli SP5500 stage piano that got 559 in-built voices/sounds.

My problem is that there's no any kind of instrument definition files on the manufacturer's nor Thomann's site.

Would anyone help me to build the .ins file for the stage piano?
I'm not asking people to do the work for me, but just help me to get started as I'm not so familiar with MIDI and .ins file syntax.

Here's the manual where should be all necessary MIDI specifications needed:
http://www.muzasound.com/download/SP5500_Manual_G06_080107.pdf

Maybe the sounds are originally from some other keyboard/synth from some other manufacturer and there's already an .ins file for it? In that case let me know if there's any other keyboards has 559 voices so I can compare it's instrument names to my SP5500 instrument names...

As far as I can tell there's no division into instrument banks, and instruments are numbered simply from 1 to 559 in the SP5500 user interface and the user's guide. Not sure if there's invisible banks underneath the UI.

I would happily do the trivial work of typing in all the instrument names etc. if someone would help me to get started.
Naturally I would share the completed file here for other potential SP5500 owners.

All the Best
//epinoia

PS. To be honest IMO it would be a good idea from forum administrators to create dedicated forum area for instrument definitions as I got 300 search results for them.. most of the threads were something like "is there ins file for my <put the name and model your new gear here>?"


EDIT: Corrected the amount of voices to 559, was mistyped as 599
post edited by Epinoia - 2010/03/21 08:01:29
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    Epinoia
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/07 15:24:51 (permalink)
    It's been quiet here.

    After I've played much around with sending "patch change" and "bank change" signals to SP5500 from Sonar, it starts to seem that the SP5500 supports only general midi. If that is correct I can use only 128 instruments out of 559 via MIDI. :(

    In the manual I linked above, there's no word about anything else than general midi support and if the voices/patches are not divided into banks there's no way to make any use of the rest 431 instruments. Grrr.

    If someone has any better knowledge how I could find a way to choose any of those 431 instruments via MIDI, please let me know.

    <keywords for forum search engine>
    sp 5500 sp-5500 thomann medeli instrument definition clifton
    </keywords for forum search engine>

    (EDIT: added another keyword)
    post edited by Epinoia - 2010/04/26 08:12:59
    #2
    planetearth
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/08 00:55:23 (permalink)
    Have you considered making your own .INS file? Usually the manufacturer does this, but sometimes the instrument owner takes it upon himself or herself.

    It's not too difficult, if you can get a text-file list of the sounds. Even a PDF file from the manufacturer's Web site should work, if they list all the sounds in it. Medeli has .PDFs of their products, with the patches listed in them. With a free (or trial version of a ) PDF editor, you could get the names from that list.

    There are Web sites that show the overall structure of an .INS file, but they're basically just text files listing the patches in the instrument. Start with the General MIDI one if you have to, and as long as that works with your piano, modify it to add the other patches from the list in the PDF. It may take some trial and error, but you could probably make one yourself. I modified a Yamaha S80 .INS file and a Roland D-20 .INS file for my S30 and D-10 keyboards, and they work great.

    I haven't seen much evidence that anyone else on the Internet is in your situation. When I did a Google search for "Thomann/Medeli SP5500" this post was the first hit--and that's for the entire Internet!

    Good luck!




    SONAR Platinum ▪ NI Komplete, Korg DLC, Arturia V5 Collection, Dimension Pro, IK Multimedia & other synths ▪ Les Paul, Peavey and Yamaha guitars. Listen to some of my stuff here: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife . Comments from other SONAR users are always welcome!
    #3
    Epinoia
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/08 10:01:58 (permalink)
    Hello planetearth,

    Thanks for your kind reply.

    Yes, I would like to make the .ins file by myself. I already made neat excel and txt files where I copied every voice name from PDF-manual and it's corresponding SP5500 voice number and tidied up the list so I could easily add it by copying and pasting them to some "skeleton" .ins file with proper formatting.

    Problem I still have, is that the 559 voices/instruments do not seem to correspond to any logical MIDI bank/patch signals. 128 General MIDI voices/instruments correspond with General MIDI standard, but I cannot seem to choose any of the other voices out of the 559 total.

    As probably everyone knows, for 128 GM instruments there's .ins definition with every version of Sonar, so yes, I can use them properly.

    It's not the end of the world and I probably would not use the SP5500 voices anyway when making end product. But it would be nice and straightforward to harness all the voices of SP5500 when making drafts/demos/experiments with plain MIDI before working out the songs with proper VSTi instruments for example.

    SP5500 is very low-budget instrument so the voices are not too great, so it's not a big deal, but it baffles me why would any synth/stage piano manufacturer load so many sounds to an instrument that has MIDI capabilities, but not allowing to control or choose but only 128 of them via MIDI.

    If I later find out that the voices are divided into banks that I'm able to change via MIDI, I would be happy, but until then I guess I just have to live with the 128 voices when not playing live and manually choosing SP5500 voices.

    Thanks again for tips. :)
    #4
    planetearth
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/08 10:38:26 (permalink)
    You might want to take a look at an .INS file that has banks to see how it's done and experiment from there.

    My Yamaha S30 has more than 384 patches in it, organized into banks, and I can access all of them. Same goes for the D-10. It has "Performance" and "Multi-timbral" modes, and each of those has 128 patches.

    Does your piano transmit MIDI program change commands? If it does, you might want to use a MIDI inspector tool to view what it's sending when you choose one of the programs. These tools are freely available on the Internet, but if you can't find one, I have one I can send you. You could also set SONAR to record every MIDI-related event and record yourself changing programs to see what it captures. From that, you might be able to figure out what the piano needs to "see" to respond to patch changes correctly.


    SONAR Platinum ▪ NI Komplete, Korg DLC, Arturia V5 Collection, Dimension Pro, IK Multimedia & other synths ▪ Les Paul, Peavey and Yamaha guitars. Listen to some of my stuff here: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife . Comments from other SONAR users are always welcome!
    #5
    Epinoia
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/08 11:10:46 (permalink)
    Oh nice, good idea, I'll try that. :D

    (I have also Korg N1R, which has over 1000 patches, but there's no problems with those as the patches are divided neatly in logical banks.)

    I've managed to send standard (and documented in SP5500 manual) bank changes from Sonar to SP5500, but I found only the same 128 GM instruments all over again in each bank. :(

    I went through over 900 banks and it seems that there's 16383 of them. o.O
    As I went through the 900 from start, maybe I should skip 1000 banks at time and see if there's any luck at later banks. I mean if for example if somehow one bank is from 1-4000, other at 4001-8000... and so on. Cannot test it right now as I just reinstalled Win7 and I got no Sonar LE yet installed on this system. Banks 1-900 are definitely same GM all over again unless I have misunderstood something completely.

    But I'd gladly try MIDI inspector tool to see if there's something undocumented going on when I change voices manually on SP5500. Which tool you would recommend? I'll also PM my email to you if you would like to send the file, unless you can post the official download URL here. :)
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    planetearth
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/08 11:22:03 (permalink)
    Epinoia


    I've managed to send standard (and documented in SP5500 manual) bank changes from Sonar to SP5500, but I found only the same 128 GM instruments all over again in each bank.

    I went through over 900 banks and it seems that there's 16383 of them. o.O

    That is bizarre!

    I'll send you the MIDI inspector when I get home. Maybe it will help you sort out what's happening.

    SONAR Platinum ▪ NI Komplete, Korg DLC, Arturia V5 Collection, Dimension Pro, IK Multimedia & other synths ▪ Les Paul, Peavey and Yamaha guitars. Listen to some of my stuff here: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife . Comments from other SONAR users are always welcome!
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    Epinoia
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/16 17:49:54 (permalink)
    Finally found the tool you referred from: http://www.e.kth.se/~e94_...ler/Program/MIDItools/  (as we had problems with transfering it as an email attachment)
    I also found another MIDI "swiss knife" called MIDI-OX at http://www.midiox.com/  (supports copying and pasting to clipboard)

    Thanks again for pointing me into right direction. :)

    Both tools will do fine if one needs to inspect MIDI in/out data.

    This is what I did: I sent voice/instrument changes 001-010 to the MIDI inspector from SP-5500.

    SP-5500 instruments 1-10, The voice names from the LCD of the keyboard:

    001    Stereo Grand Piano 1
    002    Stereo Grand Piano 2
    003    Stereo Grand Piano / W
    004    Grand Piano / W
    005    Stereo Piano Dark
    006    Octave Piano 1
    007    Octave Piano 2
    008    Synth Piano
    009    Dreamscape
    010    Piano & Strings

    Here's all the data that MIDI-OX inspected (i did nothing else than browsed voices from 001 to 010):
    I changed the form of data from hexadecimals to decimals:

     TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT                  
        468991  2   3    176     7    86    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        468992  2   3    176    91    30    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        468993  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        468994  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        468995  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change       
        468996  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 
        468998  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 

        472214  2   3    176     7    98    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        472215  2   3    176    91    30    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        472218  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        472219  2   3    176     0    51    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        472220  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change       
        472221  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 
        472222  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 

        472551  2   3    176     7    92    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        472552  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        472553  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        472554  2   3    176     0     8    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        472555  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change       
        472556  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 
        472557  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 

        473985  2   3    176     7    92    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        473986  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        473987  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        473988  2   3    176     0    50    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        473990  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change       
        473991  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 
        473992  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 

        474798  2   3    176     7    87    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        474799  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        474800  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        474801  2   3    176     0    16    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        474802  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change       
        474805  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 
        474806  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 

        475499  2   3    176     7    87    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        475500  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        475501  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        475502  2   3    176     0    25    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        475503  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change       
        475504  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 
        475505  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 

        475684  2   3    176     7    91    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        475687  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        475688  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        475689  2   3    176     0    26    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        475692  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change       
        475693  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 
        475694  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 

        476360  2   3    176     7    84    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        476361  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        476362  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        476363  2   3    176     0    49    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        476364  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change       
        476365  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 
        476366  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 

        477127  2   3    176     7    96    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        477128  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        477131  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        477132  2   3    176     0    45    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        477134  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change       
        477135  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 
        477136  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 

        478744  2   3    176     7    92    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        478745  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        478746  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        478747  2   3    176     0    44    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        478748  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change       
        478749  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 
        478750  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 

    How does the data seem to be to you?

    And is the sample of data of 10 voice changes enough to tell if those voices can be changed properly from Cakewalk as well?
    post edited by Epinoia - 2010/04/19 18:46:17
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    planetearth
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/16 23:12:27 (permalink)
    Well, I'm glad you found something that shows you the MIDI data stream.

    I'm not familiar with MIDI Ox, so I'll install it onto my computer to compare it to the data MIDIView shows me. It appears that MIDI Ox shows you more...but not quite enough. For example, I see "Status" and two "Data" entries; MIDIView doesn't show those. Unfortunately, even with this additional information, I don't see your programs actually changing. I see a lot of events, and I see "Bank MSB" and "PC" Acc. Grand Piano"--but they're all the same, even though you said you tried ten different patches.

    MIDIView showed different banks and patches, as I recall. I'll check that again tonight, too.

    I see that "Data2" is changing, but it's not consistent, and the values it shows aren't in any sequence. I assume you simply changed the presets from "1" to "10", and you didn't jump around between them. In theory, you should see the numbers increment by 1 each time. They don't, and the name of the patch appears to stay the same.

    Try choosing one of the higher-numbered patches to see what MIDI Ox shows you. Then we'll meet here again and compare notes!

    SONAR Platinum ▪ NI Komplete, Korg DLC, Arturia V5 Collection, Dimension Pro, IK Multimedia & other synths ▪ Les Paul, Peavey and Yamaha guitars. Listen to some of my stuff here: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife . Comments from other SONAR users are always welcome!
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    SysExJohn
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/17 13:05:50 (permalink)
    Hi,
    Taking a look at the MIDI spec from the manual it would appear that the device just uses the CC#0 bank select MSB not LSB. Looking at what you've recorded via MIDI-OX you need to send a combination of bank select MSB = 11 and program change =1 to get the first grand piano then MSB 51 and PC = 1 to get grand piano 2 and so on.

    You're on the right track with what you're doing, so I suggest you just keep working at the different voices and you may see a pattern starting to build up. You can see if you look at the voice list in the manual that they are kinda based on the GM voice mapping. But go ahead and build a list just noting the MSB and the control change data 2 values.

    Once you've got them all down I can probably help you to build an ins file.
    SysExJohn.
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    Epinoia
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/19 18:20:35 (permalink)
    planetearth

    I see that "Data2" is changing, but it's not consistent, and the values it shows aren't in any sequence. I assume you simply changed the presets from "1" to "10", and you didn't jump around between them. In theory, you should see the numbers increment by 1 each time. They don't, and the name of the patch appears to stay the same.

    Try choosing one of the higher-numbered patches to see what MIDI Ox shows you. Then we'll meet here again and compare notes!

    Yeah, I cleared the MIDI-OX, then just pressed the key that selects first voice/patch "001 Stereo Grand Piano 1", then I just pressed 9 times the "+"-button that switches to next voice/patch.



     I browsed through last 10 voices/patches of SP-5500:
    (Voice numbers and names from SP-5500 manual/LCD display)

    550    Pan Flute & Strings Pad
    551    Standard Kit
    552    Room Kit
    553    Power Kit
    554    Electronic Kit
    555    Analog Kit
    556    Jazz Kit
    557    Brush Kit
    558    Orchestra Kit
    559    SFX Kit

    Again, I did not do anything else, but switched those voices/patches manually from SP-5500.

    This is what MIDI-OX recorded:

     TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT                  

        217475  2   3    176     7    64    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        217476  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        217477  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        217478  2   3    176     0    44    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        217479  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change       
        217480  2   3    192    75   ---    1  ---  PC: Pan Flute        
        217481  2   3    192    75   ---    1  ---  PC: Pan Flute        

        217897  2   3    176     7    65    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        217898  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        217899  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        217900  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        217901  2   3    176   123     0    1  ---  CC: All Notes Off    
        217903  2   3    176    20     1    1  ---  Control Change       
        217904  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 
        217905  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 
        217906  2   3    224     0    64    1  ---  Pitch Bend           
        217907  2   3    176     1     0    1  ---  CC: Modulation       

        218358  2   3    176     7    64    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        218359  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        218360  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        218361  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        218362  2   3    176   123     0    1  ---  CC: All Notes Off    
        218363  2   3    176    20     1    1  ---  Control Change       
        218364  2   3    192     8   ---    1  ---  PC: Celesta          
        218365  2   3    192     8   ---    1  ---  PC: Celesta          
        218366  2   3    224     0    64    1  ---  Pitch Bend           
        218367  2   3    176     1     0    1  ---  CC: Modulation       

        218819  2   3    176     7    64    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        218820  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        218821  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        218822  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        218823  2   3    176   123     0    1  ---  CC: All Notes Off    
        218824  2   3    176    20     1    1  ---  Control Change       
        218825  2   3    192    16   ---    1  ---  PC: Drawbar Organ    
        218826  2   3    192    16   ---    1  ---  PC: Drawbar Organ    
        218827  2   3    224     0    64    1  ---  Pitch Bend           
        218828  2   3    176     1     0    1  ---  CC: Modulation       

        219300  2   3    176     7    64    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        219301  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        219302  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        219303  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        219304  2   3    176   123     0    1  ---  CC: All Notes Off    
        219306  2   3    176    20     1    1  ---  Control Change       
        219307  2   3    192    24   ---    1  ---  PC: Nylon Str Guitar 
        219308  2   3    192    24   ---    1  ---  PC: Nylon Str Guitar 
        219309  2   3    224     0    64    1  ---  Pitch Bend           
        219310  2   3    176     1     0    1  ---  CC: Modulation       

        220022  2   3    176     7    64    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        220023  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        220024  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        220025  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        220026  2   3    176   123     0    1  ---  CC: All Notes Off    
        220027  2   3    176    20     1    1  ---  Control Change       
        220028  2   3    192    25   ---    1  ---  PC: Steel Str Guitar 
        220029  2   3    192    25   ---    1  ---  PC: Steel Str Guitar 
        220030  2   3    224     0    64    1  ---  Pitch Bend           
        220031  2   3    176     1     0    1  ---  CC: Modulation       

        225897  2   3    176     7    64    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        225898  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        225899  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        225900  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        225901  2   3    176   123     0    1  ---  CC: All Notes Off    
        225902  2   3    176    20     1    1  ---  Control Change       
        225903  2   3    192    32   ---    1  ---  PC: Acoustic Bass    
        225904  2   3    192    32   ---    1  ---  PC: Acoustic Bass    
        225905  2   3    224     0    64    1  ---  Pitch Bend           
        225906  2   3    176     1     0    1  ---  CC: Modulation       

        226599  2   3    176     7    64    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        226600  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        226601  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        226602  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        226603  2   3    176   123     0    1  ---  CC: All Notes Off    
        226604  2   3    176    20     1    1  ---  Control Change       
        226605  2   3    192    40   ---    1  ---  PC: Violin           
        226606  2   3    192    40   ---    1  ---  PC: Violin           
        226607  2   3    224     0    64    1  ---  Pitch Bend           
        226608  2   3    176     1     0    1  ---  CC: Modulation       

        227241  2   3    176     7    64    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        227242  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        227243  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        227244  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        227245  2   3    176   123     0    1  ---  CC: All Notes Off    
        227246  2   3    176    20     1    1  ---  Control Change       
        227247  2   3    192    48   ---    1  ---  PC: String Ens 1     
        227248  2   3    192    48   ---    1  ---  PC: String Ens 1     
        227249  2   3    224     0    64    1  ---  Pitch Bend           
        227251  2   3    176     1     0    1  ---  CC: Modulation       

        228745  2   3    176     7    64    1  ---  CC: Volume           
        228746  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
        228747  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
        228748  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
        228749  2   3    176   123     0    1  ---  CC: All Notes Off    
        228750  2   3    176    20     1    1  ---  Control Change       
        228751  2   3    192    50   ---    1  ---  PC: SynthStrings 1   
        228752  2   3    192    50   ---    1  ---  PC: SynthStrings 1   
        228753  2   3    224     0    64    1  ---  Pitch Bend           
        228754  2   3    176     1     0    1  ---  CC: Modulation       


    @SysExJohn
    As I'm quite stranger to MIDI at technical level, I'm still trying to decode some of the details of your message. :P
    But yeah, I figured out that I should look at the lines with "Bank MSB" and from those lines I should look at the "DATA2" column and then try to see the pattern. Maybe the DATA1 column on "PC: some_instrument_name" is also important as it seems to change a lot?

    Maybe it would be easier for me to visualize and find the pattern if I would clean up unnecessary lines of the MIDI-OX output:

    CC: Volume           
    CC: Reverb Depth     
    CC: Chorus Depth     
    CC: Bank MSB         
    CC: All Notes Off    
    Control Change       
    PC: SynthStrings 1   
    PC: SynthStrings 1   
    Pitch Bend           
    CC: Modulation       

    Maybe these 3 lines that are left are the important ones when changing voices/patches or what do you think?


    Thanks again for help both of you. :)

    post edited by Epinoia - 2010/04/19 18:54:01
    #11
    Epinoia
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/19 18:29:41 (permalink)
    By the way, here's the tidied up version of the complete voice/patch list from the PDF-manual if it would be helpful for another SP-5500 owner at the future.

    Not sure if the list is way too long for this forum, but I'll remove the post if it makes the page too heavy or something.

    EDIT
    Yeah the page got quite heavy when all 559 instruments were listed.
    I instead made the instrument list as a public document at Google Docs:
    http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfkmwxtv_33ck2sz7gb
    post edited by Epinoia - 2010/04/19 18:35:12
    #12
    planetearth
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/19 20:50:56 (permalink)
    Timi,
    SysExJohn seems to have a good handle on this, and I hope he can make more sense of it. I have no doubt he knows more about MIDI data dumps than I do--it's even part of his name!

    That said, it still appears the data you're receiving via MIDI Ox doesn't correspond to the program changes you're sending. I also still don't see a direct correlation between the program changes and the programs showing up in MIDI Ox. The program numbers don't increase consistently, and the program names aren't the same as what they're supposed to be. The MSB even only changes once--and yet it appears to be wrong most of the time: The time when DATA2's value is "44" is the only time the MSB is correct in your latest list. Every other time, DATA2 is "11" and the program name doesn't match what your list states the program should be.

    I'll try MIDI Ox tonight to see if it gives me similar (and odd) results. I'd still like to try to get MIDIView to you. Despite what the Google gods have decided, I think you should be allowed to have it! I'll try sending it to you via this forum as a .JPG. It won't be a .JPG, of course; I'll just change the extension. If you have another e-mail account, you could send me that. And if none of that works, I'll post the stupid file on my own Web site!

    SONAR Platinum ▪ NI Komplete, Korg DLC, Arturia V5 Collection, Dimension Pro, IK Multimedia & other synths ▪ Les Paul, Peavey and Yamaha guitars. Listen to some of my stuff here: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife . Comments from other SONAR users are always welcome!
    #13
    Epinoia
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/20 01:35:44 (permalink)
    That said, it still appears the data you're receiving via MIDI Ox doesn't correspond to the program changes you're sending. I also still don't see a direct correlation between the program changes and the programs showing up in MIDI Ox. The program numbers don't increase consistently, and the program names aren't the same as what they're supposed to be. The MSB even only changes once--and yet it appears to be wrong most of the time: The time when DATA2's value is "44" is the only time the MSB is correct in your latest list. Every other time, DATA2 is "11" and the program name doesn't match what your list states the program should be.


    Well, as I got into it, I captured all of the 599 voices/patches from SP-5500 and put them all into an Excel/Openoffice spreadsheet and uploaded it into Google Docs for generations to come as public spreadsheet:

    http://spreadsheets.googl...Yg4SLA&output=html
    (note: if you scroll fast you need to wait a bit until more rows load into your browser, all 599 instruments are there)

    I tried to clean up any unnecessary data and here are the current columns of the spreadsheet:

    • SP-5500 # = SP-5500 Voice Number from LCD/User guide
    • SP-5500 Voice Name = SP-5500 Voice name from LCD/User guide
    • STATUS = Original column from MIDI-OX
    • DATA1 = Original column from MIDI-OX
    • DATA2 = Original column from MIDI-OX
    • EVENT = Original column from MIDI-OX

    I removed these MIDI-OX columns as unnecessary:

    • Timestamp (irrelevant)
    • In ("2" in each line)
    • Port ("3" in each line)
    • Chan ("1" in each line)
    • Note ("---" in each line)

    I also removed any lines with "CC: Volume", "CC: Reverb Depth" and "CC: Chorus Depth".

    If you take a look at the spreadsheet, does the inconsistency look more desperate now?
    I cannot see the logic there even now. :S

    Still to do: compare MIDI-OX data to MIDIView data, I'll post comparisons as soon as I can get to it.
    #14
    Epinoia
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/20 01:51:28 (permalink)
    Here's screenshots of MIDIView as I browsed all voices/patches from 001-005 and 006-010

    Attached Image(s)

    #15
    Epinoia
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/20 01:53:15 (permalink)

    Attached Image(s)

    #16
    SysExJohn
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/20 04:36:40 (permalink)
    Sorry about the delay in responding, Mondays are incredibly busy days for me. I spend about 4 hours teaching, in three different places, with a couple of hours travelling thrown in.   By 7 p.m. I've had it!

    And, excellent work that you've done so far. Well done, you're on the way. This is NOT meant to be patronising, really. So many people I respond to (in other places), want things on a plate and aren't prepared to put in a little time to get what they want and to learn in the process. (Rant over!!) ;-)

    So, a short MIDI lesson:
    In the early days of General MIDI (GM) a MIDI sequence just had to have a "program select" message in it, one per MIDI channel used, to select the voice (instrument) that you wanted. You were allowed to choose from a standard set of 128 instruments. See the MIDI data tables at http://www.midi.org/techspecs/gm1sound.php

    Of course there are a lot more than one type of Acoustic Grand Pianos around, so the MIDI specification allowed manufacturers to create, and users to select from, "banks" of sounds, all of a similar type, by using one or other, or both of, two "bank select" messages.

    These are known as "Bank select MSB" and "Bank Select LSB". (Most Significant Byte and Least Significant Byte.) In theory this allowed for more than 16,000 different banks! In fact most manufacturers use just one or other of the two messages. If you look at the great work you've done getting these logged by MIDI-OX you'll see that your keyboard uses "Bank select MSB." Actually there was another way of finding out, by looking at the MIDI specification, at the back of the manual you posted the link to, it had "Controller 0" listed (MSB), but not "Controller 32" (LSB).

    This is also known by tech-heads, geeks or nerds (such as me) as CC#0. Why? Because it identifies the actual message embedded in the MIDI file and sent to the keyboard. See here (if you dare): http://www.midi.org/techspecs/midimessages.php looking at table 3. ;-)

    Your next step is to take the table you've created with MID-OX and collect it together in the format you'll need it in for reference for creating your ".ins" file.

    What you need to do is collect together all the instruments of the same type e.g. the 12 (001 to 012) Acoustic Grand Pianos, then the Bright Acoustic Pianos (013 to 022) and so on. Some will have several entries, some only one. You need to collect the "data 2" value from the MSB entry.

    The list should look something like this:
    Acoustic Grand Piano
    GM     St.W.     St.1        St.Dk.     etc.
    0          8          11          16          etc.

    Bright Acoustic Piano
    GM     BP1.W.     etc.
    0        8              etc.

    Do the normal "melody" voices first and I'll come back and tell you how to list the drum sets shortly. I've forgotten, so I need to refresh my memory. And don't lose the list of voices for the SP5500, you've created, you'll be able to copy and paste those into the instrument file you'll be creating.

    Meanwhile you could open an instrument (.ins) file in Windows Notepad, or any other simple text editor. Preferably not WordPad as it'll try to put special editing characters in the file which will mess it up. At this point don't try to change anything unless you make a backup copy of the file to work on. Try to find a file of a similar type of piano keyboard, maybe a Korg or a Kurzweil instrument. Try to work out, if you can, how it is structured.

    That's it for lesson 1.
    I have to prepare for my course this afternoon.
    Hope it helps?
    SysExJohn.
    post edited by SysExJohn - 2010/04/20 06:50:22
    #17
    planetearth
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/20 13:08:18 (permalink)
    Wow! I know I learned a lot here--thanks, John! Very thorough, and very-well put!

    As someone who has to train people to use computers and productivity software, I appreciate when other "techies" are really teachers first and support people second.

    Timi's work has also been very thorough, and it seems you two are close to getting this resolved.

    I guess the reason the program change numbers didn't appear to be consistent was because they were addressing banks of programs, and those banks/programs weren't necessarily one after the other?

    At any rate, I certainly appreciate your efforts on this. Thanks again!

    SONAR Platinum ▪ NI Komplete, Korg DLC, Arturia V5 Collection, Dimension Pro, IK Multimedia & other synths ▪ Les Paul, Peavey and Yamaha guitars. Listen to some of my stuff here: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife . Comments from other SONAR users are always welcome!
    #18
    SysExJohn
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/20 15:51:06 (permalink)
    Well thankee sir! I do my best.

    Actually I'm a techy first.

    In the Data Processing industry in 1966 until the mid 70s (assembler level and machine code programmer) when I switched to data comms. Then later to the digital telecoms industry and lastly to satellite comms. These last two as a data comms protocol specialist, ISDN "D" channel and other horrid, horrid stuff! MIDI is easy compared to that!

    I started full time data comms training in the mid 90s, e.g. teaching ISPs how DSL worked for the main UK carrier, then won a contract training telecomms employees (around 2000 over a period of 5 years) then went several times round the world teaching the new digital satellite technologies. You see reporters using it to report back from very remote or war torn locations. I got severe "burn out" from too much travelling and lecturing with not enough breaks!

    The first PC I built was a 486! I've just built a quad core x64, 4xHDD, 8GB machine as my main DAW with SONAR 7 PE. It rocks!

    I'm now semi-retired and teach MIDI part time to adult education classes. And I still spend too much time travelling!!!!!!!!!!!

    It's been an interesting career! ;-)
    But we all grow old eventually!
    All the best,
    SysExJohn.
    #19
    planetearth
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/20 16:25:34 (permalink)
    Well John, you certainly know your stuff, and unlike the "techies" I've dealt with at IBM, Apple and others, you have the communication skills to actually help people. Most tech-support types can't seem to look people in the eye or laugh about anything that doesn't involve Star Wars.

    Thanks again for your help!

    SONAR Platinum ▪ NI Komplete, Korg DLC, Arturia V5 Collection, Dimension Pro, IK Multimedia & other synths ▪ Les Paul, Peavey and Yamaha guitars. Listen to some of my stuff here: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife . Comments from other SONAR users are always welcome!
    #20
    SysExJohn
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/21 03:49:15 (permalink)
    Ah, well.
    I worked for ICL (now Fujitsu Services, or something like that, in the UK) for 20 years and you HAD to have a sense of humour to work for them, otherwise you wouldn't survive. The stories I could tell ... but won't, to protect the guilty. Suffice it to say that the company was managed into oblivion. But I'm happy to take their pension.

    I used to be the horrid techie too. But learnt, under the tutorship of a really good presenter, how to get the message across. The trouble with most of us is that when people don't understand us we tend to go into more detail. Actually the total converse is what is needed.

    His motto was "clarity before precision". One that I've tried to follow ever since, when designing a new course.

    Best regards,
    SysExJohn.
    #21
    Epinoia
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/21 12:43:57 (permalink)
    Hello again all,

    Thanks again for enlightening advices!

    Especially the bit with bank selection was very helpful.

    I equipped my clairvoyance helmet and went ahead with your lessons on my own with the help of multi-bank ins file from my Korg N1R.

    Here's what transpired:

    Am I in right direction?

    The product seems a lot of work, but actually I like to play with automation with spreadsheets and text editors, using "search and replace" functions and macros to make anything that contains repeatedly same action for me with minimal effort. So if I went to completely wrong direction at some point, there's no great harm as I can redo anything relatively easy and fast.

    Here's how my .ins file is built at the moment:

    1. Comment of the midi device in question
    2. "Patch Names" section - Patches (with MSB DATA2 number from MIDI-OX) divided in banks (that correspond the PC DATA1 from MIDI-OX)
      • Example:
        [Bank101]
        0=450 FX6 (goblins)
        44=451 Choir Bell
    3. "Instrument Definitions" section,with the name of the device, BankSelMethod and the list of banks (named strictly after banks in "Patch Names" section)
      • A sample:
        Patch[???]=Bank80
        Patch[???]=Bank81
        Patch[???]=Bank82
        Patch[???]=Bank83
        Patch[???]=Bank84
    How can I find out which BankSelMethod I should use?
    And how could I find out the Patch numbering system that SP-5500 uses?


    Still missing from my .ins:

    • .Note Names (I can probably copy information of the drum kits from existing .ins files)
    • .Controller Names (same as above, unless there's some proper way to find out these)
    • .RPN Names (no idea what this means, I just copied the section name it from N1R .ins)
    • .NRPN Names (same as above)

    I'm very grateful of every bit of help I've gotten from both of you, :)
    Timi
    post edited by Epinoia - 2010/04/21 12:53:29
    #22
    Epinoia
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/21 12:52:37 (permalink)
    Here's the MIDI-OX data of the drum kits (hopefully i did not strip away anything important):

    PC (DATA1)     Bank MSB (DATA2)   Patch name from user's guide
    0              11                 551 Standard Kit
    8              11                 552 Room Kit
    16             11                 553 Power Kit
    24             11                 554 Electronic Kit
    25             11                 555 Analog Kit
    32             11                 556 Jazz Kit
    40             11                 557 Brush Kit
    48             11                 558 Orchestra Kit
    50             11                 559 SFX Kit


    How should I start working with these?

    //Timi
    post edited by Epinoia - 2010/04/21 12:57:44
    #23
    SysExJohn
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/22 04:35:31 (permalink)
    Hi Timi,

    A good try, but not quite there I'm afraid, although you are getting the idea! Don't be discouraged. It always takes a little work to make these files, but once you've done it put your details inside the file and make it widely available, then your name will live forever as the maker of the PS5500 instrument file! FAME! ;-)

    First of all try using the following file http://www.4shared.com/file/MDDmrXqq/PSR540.html as the basis for your work.

    First of all you'll have noticed in the ins file you've looked at, that anything on a line after a ";" (a semi-colon) is a comment. I suggest you alter the attached file to include your own details for the SP5500. And rename the file as you wish.

    Next, in the first block under the section name ". Patch Names" titled "[Yamaha PSR-540 Panel 112]" are the complete set of GM standard instruments. These, if you look through the list you  have prepared from the MIDI-OX listings, map to all the instruments starting with "0" e.g. "0=012 Acoustic Grand Piano" and "0=014 Bright Piano 1" and so on.
    They are selected using "Bank select MSB = 0" then the number at the beginning of the name in the PSR540 list. e.g. 0 = grand piano, 1 = Bright Piano and so on.

    So the two commands "Bank Select MSB=0" then "Program Change=0" will select the Acoustic Grand Piano.

    You could leave this first section exactly as it is and it will work fine for you I think as a quick browse through your list shows me the 128 standard MIDI instruments. Just change the name in square brackets to e.g. [Thomann/Medelli SP5500 GM Instrument Bank].

    Now for the second bank of instruments.
    Where, in the PSR540 ins file it says "[Yamaha PSR-540 Panel 113]" replace the name with e.g. "[PS5500 Bank 8]".

    These will all be instruments that start with "8=" in your listings. This means that they are selected using a "bank select MSB =8" followed by the instrument number from the GM table. So, acoustic grand piano will be the first entry and will be "0=Stereo Grand Piano / W", next will be "1=Bright Piano 1 / W", then "3=Honky-Tonk 1 / W" and so on.

    So "Bank Select MSB=8" then "Program Change=3" will select "Honky-Tonk 1 / W".

    So, if you go through your MIDI-OX listing extracting all the different bank numbers, I see 0, 8, 10 ,11, 13, 14, 15 and so on, you'll build up the "Banks" of sounds. i.e. those selected by a "Bank select MSB=10" then "11" etc. This should be relatively easy to do with a little, macro I'd have thought.

    Don't do the drums yet, they work in a slightly different way, by note number, so we'll do them when we've got the main instrument list done. As you say, you'll be able to use a lot from existing files, and the PSR540 one will give you a good idea how it works.

    Again don't worry about RPNs (Registered Parameter Numbers) or NRPNs (Non-Registered Parameter Numbers) yet. It's too much for me to explain all at once.

    You'll find the MIDI standard name of the controllers in table 3 of the second MMA link I sent earlier, and the list of RPNs in table 3a.

    You'll find the name of the controllers that the SP5500 responds to in Appendix 6 of your manual listed under "Control Change". If they have a "0" next to them they are recognised, or sent, and if an "x" then they are not recognised or sent.

    Hope this helps?
    More to come.
    Best regards,
    SysExJohn.

    P.S. I've just noticed I keep getting my "PS" and "SP" transposed. ;-)
    Make allowances please for the creeping on of decrepitude!
    post edited by SysExJohn - 2010/04/22 04:39:07
    #24
    Epinoia
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/22 11:38:16 (permalink)
    Hi again,

    You know, I think I understood it right, but got some wires crossed inside my head with MSB and PC so it seems to me that I just sorted the data according wrong column. That's what I get when I wake in the middle of the night and start doing things that need even a little brain activity. :P

    Here's latest draft which I built upon PSR-540 ins file structure:
    The Bank names seem a bit dull atm, because I just named them after the corresponding patch number (except the 1st bank, General Midi). I'll do the dull bit of renaming them when everything else seems to be about right. :)

    On the bank 0, the GM instruments, I inserted in the patch name field both SP-5500 name and  the GM name from PSR-540, so it might seem somewhat redundant.

    I'll try to look at the structure of the PSR-540 drum kit definition after I get the other instruments right.

    Controllers and RPN's I will copy from the link you sent and from the User's guide.

    This helped a lot! Again thanks so much from all the effort explaining it all.

    //timi

    PS.  In the .Instrument Definitions section, there's "BankSelMethod" attribute, is it important or should I ignore it for now?

    I found this information about the matter:



    There are 4 bank select methods defined in Sonar
    1. Normal
    2. Controller 0 Only
    3.Controller 32 only
    4. Patch 100-127



    As you told earlier that SP-5500 seems to use CC#0 for bank selection, does it mean that I should use "BankSelMethod=2"?
    Ah solved it: I just spotted that the "Control Change" of the "Bank Select" seems to be 0 in the User's guide, so I assume I should use "BankSelMethod=2".


    post edited by Epinoia - 2010/04/22 12:15:12
    #25
    SysExJohn
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/22 13:24:12 (permalink)
    Well done Timi, you just became an Instrument File creator!

    Now, I haven't checked all your fields in detail but a quick scan through what you've done looks good.

    Yep, bank select method 2 is the preferred one for this instrument. You learn fast!

    I'll post the next bit tomorrow (with any luck and a tail wind) concerning drum kits. I've been out teaching again and I'm a bit weary.

    At a quick glance it seems you got the controllers right too. Check your RPNs against the MMA table 3a, they should match. These are standard definitions in the MIDI specification. Another lesson will tell you about them if you want to know.

    As for NRPNs I'd have to check the manual again to see what it says, but I rather suspect it says nothing. Many manufacturers also publish a separate MIDI specification manual usually in pdf form. But I haven't found one for this instrument. My searches haven't been exhaustive though, you might keep looking. Not every manufacturer defines NRPNs though.

    You've made huge progress in just a few days. Well done.

    Best regards,
    SysExJohn.
    #26
    Epinoia
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/22 13:51:01 (permalink)
    Hi again,

    Without patient help from both of you I would not have gotten anywhere!

    Guess what, I just impatiently loaded the draft2 of my ins file to Cakewalk LE4 and even the ins file is not yet complete I can finally choose any of the 559 (minus the 9 drum kits) sounds via Cakewalk UI. :D

    Of course it's still like finding the famous needle from a haystack before I get the banks named properly. I found only a one or two sounds that seem incorrect according to attached name, but I'll make a note of them and check them later properly one by one.

    I could not find "RPN" with Acrobat's search within the whole User's guide (except from example pictures featuring instrument called StGrPn), so perhaps they are hopefully supported but undocumented. I did minimal reading about RPN's already and I think I can work out something after bit more reading.

    //timi
    post edited by Epinoia - 2010/04/22 13:54:09
    #27
    Epinoia
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/22 14:11:23 (permalink)
    Here's the (nearly) raw MIDI-OX data of the drum kits.


    I'm absolutely in no hurry, so take all the time you might need to tell more about the kits etc.

    //timi
    #28
    planetearth
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/22 15:54:12 (permalink)
    Guess what, I just impatiently loaded the draft2 of my ins file to Cakewalk LE4 and even the ins file is not yet complete I can finally choose any of the 559 (minus the 9 drum kits) sounds via Cakewalk UI. :D


    That's excellent! You're almost there, but I have no doubt you're happier about working with this digital piano now!

    You guys are just knocking this out! You'll be done in no time. I wish I could help more, but you're already beyond what I know about MIDI--though I'm certainly learning a lot.

    Thanks again for the experience!

    SONAR Platinum ▪ NI Komplete, Korg DLC, Arturia V5 Collection, Dimension Pro, IK Multimedia & other synths ▪ Les Paul, Peavey and Yamaha guitars. Listen to some of my stuff here: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife . Comments from other SONAR users are always welcome!
    #29
    SysExJohn
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    Re:Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 2010/04/23 09:31:25 (permalink)
    Hi Timi,

    The drum list was just what I needed thanks. It identifies the unit as using the GM2 drum banks, but not the GM2 bank select. I'm creating a GM2 .ins file for you at the moment, in between other things, and hope you can hang on until I've completed it? You can then copy over and edit the bits you need.

    I might then post a general overview about how to create an Instrument File on the list.

    Glad you've found the posts useful PlanetEarth. I see the thread's been read more than a thousand times! Perhaps there's a need for a general tutorial?

    Back soon I hope,
    SysExJohn.
    #30
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