Mike Warren
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Instrument definitions
Hello, I have a Kurzweil PC3 and can't seem to get an instrument definition to work properly in Sonar. The problem is that the Kurzweil starts numbering at 1 and the bank select CC0 value changes at 128, but the bank designation in the keyboard does not increment until patch 129. This is how the PC3 responds to CC0 and PC messages: [Base 1] (bank 1) CC0=0, PC=0 - "0 None" (on the PC3 display) CC0=0, PC=1 - "1 Standard Grand" ... CC0=0, PC=127 - "127 Magic Celeste" CC0=1, PC=0 - "128 Drums 'n Bells" [Base 2] (bank 2) CC0=1, PC=1 - "129 Piano Stack" etc. See how the MIDI bank select (CC0) is out by 1. This means that Sonar will group the programs like this: [Base 1] CC0=0, PC=0 - "0 None" CC0=0, PC=1 - "1 Standard Grand" ... CC0=0, PC=127 - "127 Magic Celeste" [Base 2] CC0=1, PC=0 - "128 Drums 'n Bells" << This should be in base 1 CC0=1, PC=1 - "129 Piano Stack" etc. The reason for this post is a hope that I've missed something, and there is a way to solve this. Other DAWs I've used have allowed CC0, CC32 and PC to be specified for every patch and that makes it very flexibile.
post edited by Mike Warren - 2009/04/09 07:45:45
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b3gsus@msn.com
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RE: Insrument definitions
2009/04/09 06:54:29
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Do you have the correct INS Definition File??? I use a wide array of Keyboards, Karma, Motif, Roland D70, JV-80, Korg CX3 Organ, Hammond XB-2 Organ, ect & all of them have worked in Sonar since Sonar 2.2XL.. I used to have a Kurweil & that was a tricky INS file to find. Try going to the Sonar Wiki, or Google INS Files & you've got a good chance of finding the files needed.. Wildman
Wildman,,aka,,,"Nick Danger" Studiocat Core2Quad Q9550 w/P45 Cset XP-Pro Sonar Pro 8, 2 FF 800, Wclock, Avalon VT-737, Focusrite V Master,Eureka, 2-LA-4s, Neumann U87,TLM-103,Rode NTK,MCU,Event SP8s, DynAudio BM5As VS-2480 4 DA88 2-Mackie 24/8buss
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jeffb63
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RE: Insrument definitions
2009/04/09 06:55:37
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I don't have an answer to your question but I'm envious of your ownership of the PC3.
I've been lusting over one of those since they first came out. (Still trying to persuade Mrs Jeff that it's an absolute must to keep my creative juices flowing!)
Studio: X3 Producer on i7 4770K Asus Z87-K 32Gb G-Skill Trident X. W8.1 x64. 2408 Mk3, ADI8-DD. BCF2000. Stage: Cantabile Performer 2 on Lenovo W530 i7 3720QM 16Gb DDR3. Samsung 840 Evo, Samsung 840 Pro. W7 x64.
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Mike Warren
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RE: Instrument definitions
2009/04/09 07:44:43
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ORIGINAL: b3gsus@msn.com
Do you have the correct INS Definition File???
I made one based on information from this site: http://www.tweakheadz.com/how_to_build_a_cakewalk_ins_file.htm I also downloaded one made by somone else and it has the same problem. The only way I can see to solve this is if there is a way to define CC0 mesages for each patch, rather than by bank.
post edited by Mike Warren - 2009/04/09 07:46:12
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Mike Warren
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RE: Insrument definitions
2009/04/09 07:51:46
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ORIGINAL: jeffb63
I'm envious of your ownership of the PC3.
It's a very versatile keyboard and sounds great. Now, if I can only convince it and Sonar to be friends. :)
I've been lusting over one of those since they first came out. (Still trying to persuade Mrs Jeff that it's an absolute must to keep my creative juices flowing!)
You can tell her from me that it is an essential tool. If she doesn't believe me, who will she believe? I have the 88 key weighted version (PC3x).
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jeffb63
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RE: Insrument definitions
2009/04/09 07:59:35
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I have the 88 key weighted version (PC3x).
Nice!!
Studio: X3 Producer on i7 4770K Asus Z87-K 32Gb G-Skill Trident X. W8.1 x64. 2408 Mk3, ADI8-DD. BCF2000. Stage: Cantabile Performer 2 on Lenovo W530 i7 3720QM 16Gb DDR3. Samsung 840 Evo, Samsung 840 Pro. W7 x64.
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Mike Warren
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RE: Insrument definitions
2009/04/09 09:37:47
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ORIGINAL: jeffb63
I have the 88 key weighted version (PC3x).
Nice!!
Here's my setup. 
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ducatibruce2
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RE: Insrument definitions
2009/04/09 11:12:35
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AFAIK there's no way to get Sonar to use 129 patches in a bank. It interprets a change in the BankSelect (CC0) value as a change in bank.
I'm pretty sure that the fact that Sonar displays the 129th patch as bank 2 when the PC3 displays it as bank1 wont effect the usability of the patch - other than you having to remember the difference when selecting.
S8.5.3PE & X1d P Exp & X2P, Q6600 @3Ghz, 4GB DDR2, XP SP3 With Knobs: 2 x Yamaha i88x mlan (ASIO), RS7000, Motif ESR, Roland SI24, VSynth XT, Varios, Fantom XR, JunoD, HPD10, Korg PadKontrol No knobs: P5, DimPro, Rapture, Z3ta+, IK stuff, ReCycle, Komplete8
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Mike Warren
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RE: Insrument definitions
2009/04/09 19:56:30
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ORIGINAL: ducatibruce2
AFAIK there's no way to get Sonar to use 129 patches in a bank. It interprets a change in the BankSelect (CC0) value as a change in bank.
I'm pretty sure that the fact that Sonar displays the 129th patch as bank 2 when the PC3 displays it as bank1 wont effect the usability of the patch - other than you having to remember the difference when selecting.
Yes, it does work. It just bothers me when things are not nicely ordered. I was hoping I'd missed something, and there was a way to overcome this.
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Rbh
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RE: Insrument definitions
2009/04/09 21:42:07
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There was a small utility program floating around called KRZtoINS or something similar that would read Kurzweils SYS ex dump and create a Instrument definition file that you could just cut and paste in notepad. Other than that I believe there is a switch in the main instrument definition allowing you to use cc32 for bank change format that Kurzweil uses.
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jeffb63
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RE: Instrument definitions
2009/06/15 04:48:07
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How are you getting on with the PC3? I'm just on the verge of buying the 76 note version (not so hard on the back for gigging) having saved all my pocket money!
Studio: X3 Producer on i7 4770K Asus Z87-K 32Gb G-Skill Trident X. W8.1 x64. 2408 Mk3, ADI8-DD. BCF2000. Stage: Cantabile Performer 2 on Lenovo W530 i7 3720QM 16Gb DDR3. Samsung 840 Evo, Samsung 840 Pro. W7 x64.
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Mike Warren
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RE: Instrument definitions
2009/06/15 08:15:03
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Still very happy with it. I hope you get a chance to have a good play with one before you purchase. Not eveyone likes them.
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jeffb63
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RE: Instrument definitions
2009/06/16 08:14:25
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I got it this morning and WOW!
Studio: X3 Producer on i7 4770K Asus Z87-K 32Gb G-Skill Trident X. W8.1 x64. 2408 Mk3, ADI8-DD. BCF2000. Stage: Cantabile Performer 2 on Lenovo W530 i7 3720QM 16Gb DDR3. Samsung 840 Evo, Samsung 840 Pro. W7 x64.
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Mike Warren
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RE: Instrument definitions
2009/06/16 08:57:25
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ORIGINAL: jeffb63
I got it this morning and WOW!
Congratulations. I guess you were able to convince Mrs. jeff :)
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jeffb63
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RE: Instrument definitions
2009/06/16 14:28:44
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Congratulations. I guess you were able to convince Mrs. jeff :) Thankfully yes.
Studio: X3 Producer on i7 4770K Asus Z87-K 32Gb G-Skill Trident X. W8.1 x64. 2408 Mk3, ADI8-DD. BCF2000. Stage: Cantabile Performer 2 on Lenovo W530 i7 3720QM 16Gb DDR3. Samsung 840 Evo, Samsung 840 Pro. W7 x64.
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jasondb
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RE: Instrument definitions
2009/07/02 22:39:08
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I'm struggling with this as well, and I'm not sure I understand the proposed fix above (other than to remember the last patch in every bank is listed in the subsequent bank within Sonar). Is there a way to make this work through changing the bank select method? I tried several scenarios and didn't seem to find one that worked, but I may not be thinking about it correctly. Anybody got an INS file working for the PCx series they can share? I didn't see one on http://www.cakewalk.com or http://www.cakewalknet.com. I just got the PC361, and have built an INS file that generally works as far as selecting patch names except for this issue. All thoughts appreciated. Thanks, -Jason
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Mike Warren
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RE: Instrument definitions
2009/07/02 22:53:49
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I've not had any luck finding a solution to this. Apparently, some older kurzweils were capable of remapping this, but Kurzweil have informed me that this isn't going to happen with the PC3 series.
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rkl122
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RE: Instrument definitions
2009/07/03 07:31:04
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I just stumbled on this thread. Not sure there's a solution, but have not seen the problem with the PC2X. I notice in my master .ins file, and in the default, in some places there's this line: Patch =1..128
and in others there's this:
Patch=0..127
Assuming this is some sort of scaling function, I wonder if the following might solve the problem:
Patch=2..129
Just a thought. -Ron
Edit - In preview, those lines are not showing right. They are Patch['asterisk']=0...127 etc.
Later Edit - As I look more closely at master.ins, I think the asterisk line covers all banks for which there is no explicit bank entry. So what's probably better is to have (as I do) a series of Patch[x] lines, where x is each bank. These go in the instrument definitions section under the Kurz section. Mine looks like this:
.Instrument Definitions
[Kurzweil PC2X]
Control=PC2X Controllers
Patch[1]=General MIDI
Patch[0]=PC2X Bank 0
Patch[2]=PC2X Bank 2
Patch[4]=PC2X KB3 Bank
Patch[6]=PC2X Bank 6
Patch[7]=Drums
Patch['*']=General MIDI (posting note: remove quotes)
Key[7,*]=General MIDI Drums
Key[1,*]=Diatonic
Drum[7,*]=1
The strings to the right of the "=" for each Patch line is a header in the .Patch Names region.
HTH -Ron
post edited by rkl122 - 2009/07/03 15:54:53
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Mike Warren
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RE: Instrument definitions
2009/07/03 08:49:12
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Thanks. That looks promising. I'll have a go at it tomorrow.
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Mike Warren
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RE: Instrument definitions
2009/07/08 07:26:48
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Thanks for the info Ron, but unfortunately none of that works.
The Patch[*] line is just for unnamed banks, as you said, and even then it still outputs patch numbers 0-127
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rkl122
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RE: Instrument definitions
2009/07/08 18:07:52
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The Patch['*'] line is just for unnamed banks, as you said, and even then it still outputs patch numbers 0-127 Mike, sorry it's not working. Yes, to confirm, I just inserted a dummy bank for the PC2X into my master.ins with the first patch set as 1= and the last as 128=. Sure enough, the patch select dialog begins with an inserted patch "0", and ends with 127. I gave it a Bank 8 assignment (Patch[8]=Dummy Bankj. But 128th patch simply doesn't show in the dialog. (Using S7P.) It's not an issue with the PC2X, since its numbering follows the 0-127 protocol. (I wonder why Kurz changed that on the PC3 series.) BTW, my bank select parameter in the instrument definition is "normal." MIDIOX shows that changing the patch in the track pane issues 3 events. CC0=0, CC32=the bank number, and PC=patch number from the Sonar generated dialog. Other midi software allows for "zero-based" or "one-based" patch numbering. Don't understand why CW would not have a comparable feature. (Or what the significance of those Patch['*']=1..128 in some of the .ins files is.) Please post if you learn more. -Ron
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Mike Warren
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RE: Instrument definitions
2009/07/08 18:39:03
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ORIGINAL: rkl122
Other midi software allows for "zero-based" or "one-based" patch numbering. Don't understand why CW would not have a comparable feature. (Or what the significance of those Patch['*']=1..128 in some of the .ins files is.) Please post if you learn more.
Well, Cakewalk really do allow 1 based numbering. This goes back to the early days of MIDI. Most synths would number their patches on the front panel starting at patch number 1 and going up from there. Behind the scenes, however, the first patch was selected by PC=0. All that happens in Sonar is that the name of the patch is called "1" even though the actual PC transmitted is 0. This all makes sense since it is not possible to send a PC greater than 127. The problem is that Kurzweil have decided to make the PC3 ignore PC=0 in the first bank. This has the advantage that MIDI PC now matches actual patch number. However, this is only of benefit for the first bank Other MIDI programs allow CC0, CC32, and PC all to be defined for every patch name, but Sonar does not have this flexibility. As I said earlier, it doesn't stop me using the PC3 and Sonar together, but it offends my sense of aesthetics to see the banks in Sonar not match the banks in the PC3.
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DavidBrown99
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RE: Instrument definitions
2009/12/01 19:45:19
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I was searching for someone that had completed the PC3X banks. I found this forum, question and problem.
I made two banks for my PC3X and they work perfectly. Use the template starting with 1, start filling it out, cursor up to the top entry and hit delete. cursor back down and finish the entries to 128 (the old Kurzweil standard stopped at 99 remember?) When you get to 128 stop. Start a new bank named bank01 & voice #129 is the first voicde, again use the template starting with 1, and fill it it.
It works. I can't post it yet because I have a lot of entries to make before it's ready to ship.
I have every Kurzweil ever made and the PC3X is a little different. I prefer the K1000-K2600 bank change method myself.
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Mike Warren
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RE: Instrument definitions
2009/12/01 19:58:32
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DavidBrown99
I was searching for someone that had completed the PC3X banks. I found this forum, question and problem.
I made two banks for my PC3X and they work perfectly. Use the template starting with 1, start filling it out, cursor up to the top entry and hit delete. cursor back down and finish the entries to 128 (the old Kurzweil standard stopped at 99 remember?) When you get to 128 stop. Start a new bank named bank01 & voice #129 is the first voicde, again use the template starting with 1, and fill it it.
It works. I can't post it yet because I have a lot of entries to make before it's ready to ship.
I have every Kurzweil ever made and the PC3X is a little different. I prefer the K1000-K2600 bank change method myself.
This sounds promising. I'm not really following what you are doing at the moment, but I'll have a go at it tonight. BTW, if you can export even what you have, I should be able to easily merge all the rest of the program names. Might save you some typing.
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Mike Warren
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RE: Instrument definitions
2009/12/07 05:36:39
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Hi David, I'm not having any luck following your instructions. DavidBrown99
Use the template starting with 1, start filling it out, cursor up to the top entry and hit delete.
First problem, and maybe why it all falls down. I don't understand how to use a template. I can only create a new note names list. I can add patches from 1 to 128, but when used in a song, Sonar inserts a patch called "0" into the list and truncates the list at 127.
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DavidBrown99
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RE: Instrument definitions
2009/12/17 20:45:59
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I finally got around to almost finishing a template. I have an 18K INI file named "PC3x.ini" ready for anyone who wants it. email me at:
dbrown12
AT
nc.rr.com
The next to the last bank is only partially complete. this is version 3 of the software and voices.
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Startngo
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RE: Instrument definitions
2011/01/06 13:48:01
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Hello David,
I am brand new to the Cakewalk forum having just installed Sonar 8.5 earlier this year and am learning to use it. I have been viewing the forums for the last couple of months and they have been very helpful on a lot of different topics. Until now, I really didn't have a reason to register since I am new and have nothing to add to the posts.
I also have the Kurzweil PC3 keyboard (76-key version and LOVING IT!) and would like to get a copy of your INS file so I can use the sounds in my PC3 with MIDI tracks in Sonar. I will send a separate email like you requested in your post. I'm still new to the whole "instrument definition" side of things, but I would love to be able to select and see the names of PC3 program selections in my Track View.
Thanks. I know it's probably a lot of work to put an INS file together and I appreciate you offering it up to forum users.
'Startngo'
Dana Hester
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ThinAirDesigns
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RE: Instrument definitions
2011/01/10 15:20:55
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Hi David - the above post could almost be read word for word and apply to me.
I've sent an email per your instructions.
TIA
JB
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Broncosteven
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RE: Instrument definitions
2013/02/28 14:46:53
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I created an .ins file for the PC3 Kore 64 expansion I uploaded it on Sonikmatter if you want it, it took a while to compile and test, there are gaps between some of the sounds that took some testing and debugging. It is my 1st attempt at a definition file and after I figured out what I was doing it wasn't so hard. The trick was finding where the gaps were between the sounds. http://forum.sonikmatter....le/353-pc3-kore-64ins/ Enjoy!
post edited by Broncosteven - 2013/02/28 16:14:35
Gene Kranz, Tough & Competent. Gearlust Keys: Kurzweil PC3, ESQ-1, Roland D-550 (with MEX Card), Roland R8, Roland JU-06, Roland XV-5080, Wavestation A/D, OB Matrix-1000, Proteus/1XR, Roland MT-32, MOTU Midi Express, MOTU 828mk3, Mackie 1402-VL2, M-Audio BX8a, Sonar X3 Producer, Guitar Rig 4, Homebrew intel i5 with 8 gig ram and Windows 10 pro 64bit. Guitars: Martin 00-16C Classical, Yamaha cg-40MA, Fender Tele 59 reissue, Ovation Elite, Fender Mandolin.
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