cparmerlee
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 17:36:01
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The writing has been on the wall for Cakewalk for a long time. Nobody should really be surprised. And it sounds as if Gibson at large is not in much better shape.
A bigger issue (for me) is that the field is still extremely crowded, so I bet most of the DAWs are unprofitable or break-even at best. That is discouraging because none of the others have really been making much of an effort to advance the state of the art. It we had to rank them on the basis of the recent rate of progress, I'd say the big gorillas (ProTools and Cubase) would be near the bottom.
StudioOne is attractive because they seem to be making more investment than some others, but is this sustainable? Presonus seems to be spreading themselves a bit thin, but it is hard to say because they are privately held.
Looking ahead, any guesses about what will be seen as the most active, vibrant DAW product in 2022? Maybe it won't even be one of the products we see today.
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Amicus717
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 17:48:57
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Gibson bought Cakewalk, it seems, mainly for the intellectual assets and the talent. From what I've read Gibson didn't seem hugely interested in the Cakewalk brand or any of the cache associated with it, beyond using the Cakewalk brand to develop and market family/home user oriented products. The plan was to merge Cakewalk's pro level stuff into Tascam, and let Tascam become the face of the company as Tascam Professional. That plan was dropped and never enacted, and I'm curious to know why.
Sonar Platinum, Windows 10 Pro 64, Core i7-5820K Haswell-E CPU, 32GB DDR4 RAM, RME Babyface, Adam F7 monitors, Mackie MCU
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Mark D.
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 17:57:37
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I agree with Mister Happy on two things. Cheapskates. Yep. I work with a rapper / beat maker who I did an extensive two album project with Sonar 8.5.3 (now upgraded to Sonar Platinum lifetime). He's worked with me remotely on a few things and I've reminded him constantly that having similar platforms will improve speed and quality with a very minimal investment. He could afford the lower priced offerings of Cakewalk fully compatible with my DAW, they are well below $100, still he sticks with some freeware garbage that requires him to struggle exporting stuff and costs quality in the end. There is a reason for this and it's how it is, and there is no going back from it.
There is a generation that at age 20 today never paid a penny for any music they've heard. They want to be rap or rock stars or whatever, a few of them. They know they won't get a "big record deal" to buy yachts with. That ship has sailed. They can't justify paying an outside engineer a fraction of what they'd once make to get production quality they can be proud of, and do awful sounding stuff at home for free, merely because it's free. That said, I understand, it's hard to justify putting even $100 into a project that will make you zero sales. Where all your best friends say "it sounds great!" and ask where they can listen to the stuff for free because they won't pay for ****.
The other big deal is the free plugins and synths. There are enough of enough quality in there now that other than making sure effects and synths are compatible with future Windows revisions, there is no reason to add more or to develop new features, add new samples. Just stop that entire side of Cakewalk and it's 1/2 to 2/3 of the actual cost likely. Just keep the current version stable with future Windows changes, find small edit workflow improvements and audio engine improvements in the future. You're not really scaling the product down, a few outside software effects folks might now continue so we lose them, that's fine. Most will and are part of the Cakewalk family.
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jamesyoyo
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 18:34:27
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☄ Helpfulby SteveStrummerUK 2017/11/25 02:36:02
mister happy
Hello,
Disagreeing with my statements is easy.
If anyone really wants to take on the subject they may refer to actual data.
For example;
http:\\www.goo.gl/SqDznR
NAMM members may access more recent info but this 2014 data is available for anyone. to read through.
Fretted Products $ 1,323,190,000
Wind Instruments $ 521,800,000
Printed Music $ 518,330,000
Percusion $ 381.570,000
Acoustic pianos $ 292.810,000
Stringed Instruments $ 109,000,000
Institutional Organs $ 29,000,000
Home Organs $ 13,000,000
Total = $3,188,700,000
Computer Music Products $ 360,000,000
used by both traditional musicians and electronic musicians
What you will notice is that despite popular stories of the demise of the music industry, the numbers were stable year to year and most categories posted small gains. Upon inspection you may notice that the highest profile businesses seem to spend so much being high profile that they often times not on the winners podium, but there are winners and music is being made by musicians with instruments that they continue to buy.
As I sit and watch the Thanksgiving day parades I am struck by the fact that the numerous marching bands have yet to be replaced with a few DJs riding on floats.
If your anecdotal evidence leads you to believe that young people no longer play music on instruments you might ask yourself "why is it that I do not know any young people that play traditional music".
If you do not care about this idea, that is absolutely fine, but if you purport to seem concerned or informed that the practice of making traditional music has disappeared you may want to figure out what it is about you that makes this perspective a part of your personal reality.
In the meantime, succeeding generations of musicians are actively continuing to pass along the knowledge and skills related to making music, These ideas will continue to benefit practitioners of all forms of music making.
Are you just trying to be a jerk? I just said everyone has to play an instrument, didn’t I? That orchestra, jazz and marching bands are still going strong has zero to do with the cultural upheaval that is roiling the musical instrument business. There a very few kids with big dreams in their heads buying guitars and drums anymore. These sales figures probably have to do more with an aging wealthy boomer population indulging themselves then anything else. I’ve spent a lot of time in music stores...it’s all old guys with a smattering of kids here and there. How many recording studios have shut down? How many music retailers have gone out of business? How many clubs targeted to people under 40 are around compared with thirty years ago? How many SoundCloud rappers are out there finding success vs bands? Stop obfuscating the issue.
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DrLumen
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 18:57:03
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☄ Helpfulby Larry Jones 2017/11/23 22:03:17
mister happy
Witnessing Cakewalk's downward spiral caused by its insistence on catering to, and cultivating the patronage of, a community of cheapskates has been disappointing. I am not surprised by the vile backlash targeted at Gibson which is being voiced by this community. It was focused on getting something for next to nothing and now it has panicked at the realization that there is nothing more to get.
I really wonder who the ^$%& do you think you are speaking to here? Unless someone is here with a cracked copy, we all paid for our membership and the insinuation that we are a bunch of "cheapskates" is highly insulting. I never went into this to make money and I never expected to do so. However, between pro, platinum, synths, libraries and plugs, I have paid for 10 separate items through the CW store - most at LIST prices. Yes, I have gotten freebies but it is not like anyone here demanded them, I would never demand anything for free. But you are better than the rest of us because of what exactly? And, if your diatribe is correct, it just goes to prove even more shenanigans by Gibson. They likely knew CW was not going to last much longer but yet they trotted out lifetime updates to boost sales. Talk about a pyramid scheme! I can appreciate Gibson trying to make a go of CW. That does not mean I commend them when they make a conscious attempt to screw me over. With that, you can take your sanctimonious lips and kiss my ...
-When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
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Anderton
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 19:17:47
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☄ Helpfulby AllanH 2017/11/24 15:45:56
All of this is more complicated than it appears on the surface. For example, I don't think digital performer is keeping Motu alive. I think it's the interfaces. Pro Tools, Cubase, Studio One, Ableton, Logic all have hardware components. You can't download hardware from a torrent! Software theft is still a huge problem, and a software-only company like Cakewalk has a really tough climb ahead of it. If everyone who used Sonar had paid for it, the situation could be very different. Also bear in mind that it has to compete with Logic, backed by a company with 88 billion dollars in the bank or more, Audacity which is free, and Reaper, which was bankrolled by someone who made half a billion dollars selling a program to AOL.
Consider Studio One. It's worth it for PreSonus to have developed it if for no other reason so that it didn't have to pay license fees to another company to include software in their interfaces. The fact that it has taken off on its own is welcome for them, of course, but that's in addition to other valid reasons why it should exist.
I truly believe Gibson wanted to make Cakewalk succeed where others had failed. Unfortunately despite years of trying, it just didn't happen. I think there was some hope that something would pull it out at the last minute, like momentum. The person behind momentum was convinced it would be a huge success, but when it was introduced, it did not garner much interest and certainly did not garner much income...certainly not enough to justify keeping the company going. It's definitely a sad turn of events, but I can tell you that Gibson did want Cakewalk to be successful, it just couldn't make it happen any more then Roland could.
I do think that the announcement from Gibson should have been more specific about what will happen with the community, and the current owners. However the transition team at Cakewalk is going to be tying up loose ends, and don't forget that Cakewalk has always been a very customer-centric company. I think they're going to do everything they can to make sure existing customers can use the software for as long as possible so that people have time to transition to something else if that's the path that they need to take, or to see if by some chance something does happen with Cakewalk.
We will see what the future brings. Remember that the music industry is a fashion industry and everything can change in a matter of moments. Sometimes that works against you, as it has in this case. But, sometimes that works in your favor. If I could see the future, I would be buying and selling stocks, not writing books, doing seminars, and consulting.
In retrospect, there were probably things that could have been done to save Cakewalk. But while Sonar had an undo function, life does not, and that's why we are where we are...
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hangtimekites
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 19:28:22
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Or those figures could have been repayment to investor on purchase of a company? Business rarely publish real profit / loss figures in my experience!
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denverdrummer
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 19:51:28
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I always thought the Roland/Cakewalk partnership was a good one as Yamaha had Steinberg, and you had the two biggest synth/workstation manufacturers with competitive DAW's. It's unfortunate that Cake was that insolvent.
I've long thought there are way too many DAW's on the market, but I always thought being a Windows only platform would help Cake survive. It was by far the best Windows only DAW, and I really thought it held it's own with the big ones. But the fact is the market share pretty much dried up very quickly with Studio One coming on the market and other products like Reaper seemed to do better.
Cubase I believe is still has the no. 1 install base on Windows. It's really sad because I still believe that Sonar is one of the best DAW's out there, and I was even saying on one of the other forums, having use Studio One, there are things that are just a real pain in the butt trying to do in Studio One what you could with Sonar. Of course I was still using V-Vocal and not Melodyne. I have had multiple issues with Melodyne not recognizing my software license. I've done so much with V-Vocal I just got used to it.
I agree that the writing has been on the wall a long time. I always held out hope because this is by far the best user community for home recording. Also the bakers are way more repsonsive to the user base than PreSonus has been with S1.
I was always skeptical of the Gibson/Cake partnership because Gibson is a terrible company. It just made no sense the pairing of those companies, unlike with Roland. I do hope someone buys the source code and does something with it productive.
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anydmusic
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 20:01:53
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Anderton
I do think that the announcement from Gibson should have been more specific about what will happen with the community, and the current owners. However the transition team at Cakewalk is going to be tying up loose ends, and don't forget that Cakewalk has always been a very customer-centric company. I think they're going to do everything they can to make sure existing customers can use the software for as long as possible so that people have time to transition to something else if that's the path that they need to take, or to see if by some chance something does happen with Cakewalk.
That would have helped Craig It would also have been good if they had committed to a 3 or 4 month period of bug fix only maintenance although I guess that may me what 2017.10 is meant to be. Thinking back to when there used to be an annual release there was always an update a few months later that stabilised the product and when we skipped versions it was the stabilised one that we relied on and it was good for a number of years, Well at least that was my experience. I'm sure that this has been a hard time for you and many others who were potentially aware of the reality of the situation but were unable to say anything. From what I have seen of you and others, like Noel, deception is not part of your make up so it must have been stressful. As I have said elsewhere I stuck with Sonar 2 for a long time so I'm planning to do the same with SPLAT 2017.11 or a final stable release if one becomes available. I have a feeling that a lot of us will be using SPLAT a lot longer that we are expecting right now. The other item that needs communicating is the expected life of the server(s) for Command Centre. I'm guessing that the cost of keeping them is not that significant and that they will be there for a few years but details like this will increase confidence. The bigger concern in all of this has to be the viability of other companies trying to survive in a reducing market. I hope I'm wrong but it feels like Cakewalk won't be the only company that we lose.
Graham Windows 10 64 bit - Intel i7-4790, 16GB, 2 x 256GB SSD Cubase 9.5 Sonar Platinum (Rapture Pro, Z3TA 2, CA2A, plus some other bits) Delta 24/96, UAD 1, UA25 EX, 2 x MidiSport, IKMultiMedia - (SampleTank 3, Miroslav 2, Syntronik, TRacks 5, Modo Bass), Band In A Box, Sound Quest, VS Pro, Kinetic, Acid, Sound Forge, Jammer Waves MaxxVolume, IR 1, Aphex Enhancer, Abbey Plates Korg Legacy, VStation, Bass Station
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anydmusic
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 20:07:43
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denverdrummer
I always thought the Roland/Cakewalk partnership was a good one as Yamaha had Steinberg, and you had the two biggest synth/workstation manufacturers with competitive DAW's.
The company that Roland should have bought was Datasonics the Australian Developer of VS Studio. Their integration with the VS range is really good and this would have enabled Roland to have a truly integrated PC/VS Midi Audio solution. If VS Studio had a better UI I would have considered upgrading to it from the VS Controller only version.
Graham Windows 10 64 bit - Intel i7-4790, 16GB, 2 x 256GB SSD Cubase 9.5 Sonar Platinum (Rapture Pro, Z3TA 2, CA2A, plus some other bits) Delta 24/96, UAD 1, UA25 EX, 2 x MidiSport, IKMultiMedia - (SampleTank 3, Miroslav 2, Syntronik, TRacks 5, Modo Bass), Band In A Box, Sound Quest, VS Pro, Kinetic, Acid, Sound Forge, Jammer Waves MaxxVolume, IR 1, Aphex Enhancer, Abbey Plates Korg Legacy, VStation, Bass Station
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Per Rasmussen
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 20:40:30
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Hi Craig,
this might sound like a silly joke, but I think
you should write a novel/documentary
called 'The Rise And Fall Of The Cakewalk Empire'.
Win10 x64, Echo AudioFire 8, Focusrite TwinTrack Pro, Studio Projects C1, Gibson LP '71, Fender Strat 2008.
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azslow3
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 21:18:53
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☄ Helpfulby Soundwise 2017/11/23 23:25:39
With all respect Craig, but... You was very close to that all. So: Anderton
a) Software theft is still a huge problem...
b) Also bear in mind that it has to compete with...
c) I truly believe Gibson wanted to make Cakewalk succeed where others had failed...
a) The first was an argument when new copy protection was introduced. Had it any success? Was it worse the money invested? If no, why it is still there? If yes, why you again mention that? b) competing with the concurrence without updating core engine capabilities, by adding plug-ins, interface buttons and completely unrelated staff like Momento? Seriously? c) I was tracking almost all your posts, CW posts, outside info... What I have not seen is any spells HOW Gibson tried to make it success. By letting them shoot school like promo videos themselves? Buy letting them take rather questionable marketing decisions? By delivering Cubase with audio interfaces? By not associating still known labels, like "Gibson guitar" with Sonar? (the only videos on Youtube which comes are from your or about your.... no single pro made video when good players with Gibson guitars record something in Sonar...) Sorry, all that does not make any sense for me. As I write in another thread, I was breaking my head in attempt to understand any single decision during Cakewalk movements under Gibson. But now I put the list together, and it make sense. Not that I like it, but at least something I can understand. I hope I am wrong: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3691528 I remember you was writing about betting single cents with people who claim that will happened, and that you could be rich. You should be happy you have not  PS. I want to repeat, no offense and no disrespect. Just ordered thoughts and a bit humor...
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yevster
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 21:48:36
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☄ Helpfulby SteveStrummerUK 2017/11/25 02:54:19
Anderton
All of this is more complicated than it appears on the surface. For example, I don't think digital performer is keeping Motu alive. I think it's the interfaces. Pro Tools, Cubase, Studio One, Ableton, Logic all have hardware components. You can't download hardware from a torrent! Software theft is still a huge problem, and a software-only company like Cakewalk has a really tough climb ahead of it. If everyone who used Sonar had paid for it, the situation could be very different. Also bear in mind that it has to compete with Logic, backed by a company with 88 billion dollars in the bank or more, Audacity which is free, and Reaper, which was bankrolled by someone who made half a billion dollars selling a program to AOL. Consider Studio One. It's worth it for PreSonus to have developed it if for no other reason so that it didn't have to pay license fees to another company to include software in their interfaces. The fact that it has taken off on its own is welcome for them, of course, but that's in addition to other valid reasons why it should exist.
With all due respect to Craig, I don't think any of his proposed explanations hold water. As we found out from the OP's acquisition filings, Cakewalk was losing money while at Roland, where Sonar was also not keeping the larger company alive. Except unlike Cubase for Yamaha or StudioOne for Presonus (both also acquisitions), Sonar did not prevent Roland from needing to license other OEM DAWs due to lacking mac support. So the differentiating defect is thus with the product development strategy, not (only) circumstances. The competition with Logic is also an insufficient explanation, as every DAW competes with Logic, and every DAW (aside from Cubase) has a full-featured product tier at the $200 level. Sonar did too, yet somehow it is the only one is being shuttered. I propose an alternative explanation: Cakewalk existed in a bubble. It had a tendency to promote from within. Product managers became executives, QA people became product managers - there seemed to be no product leaders coming from the outside who were not already deeply entrenched in the company or Sonar. This kind of insularity and groupthink can render a company unable to respond to changing markets and demands. Long-time users of the same product can fail to notice usability flaws and design defects that are glaring and, perhaps, prohibitive for a newcomer. This is why I switched - because Using Sonar became full of hassles that didn't exist with other products. I'm assuming this is why some big-name artists (Justin Lassen, Dot da Genius) had switched away too and why others didn't switch over.
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tlw
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 21:54:24
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Amicus717
Found this online while researching the Roland/Gibson sale from 2013: https://www.roland.com/RolandComSite/media/global/release/pdf/2013/20130924.pdf
I’m not sure that document tells us much worth knowing. When examining the financial situation of a subsidiary company the picture isn’t complete without seeing the full financial details of its parent as well. There are many accounting methods which allow a subsidiary with income that exceeds its costs look like it is a loss-maker. Which nominal losses might then be open to writing down against corporation or other taxes. What I do know about Roland is that back when that document was drawn up it was itself in some financial difficulty. Which may have prompted the sale of Cakewalk to Gibson in the first place. What I would be mildly interesting in seeing is a full financial breakdown of how a relatively small software company could make sales totalling $10,307,000 and end up with overall negative income for the year. What money came in and where it went. But that’s not likely to happen, would mostly be to satisfy my curiosity and is water under the bridge now anyway.
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Larry Jones
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 22:19:35
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☄ Helpfulby DrLumen 2017/11/24 15:33:29
mister happy
SONAR X1 was repeatedly excused as the most successful version of SONAR ever. That year ended with a gain in losses of 220,000 dollars for a total year end loss of $426,000.
By the time X1E had furthered this great success the total loss for the year was $891,000 and the companies assets had been scuttled.
The fact is that Gibson, probably the infamous CEO himself, stepped in as an ANGEL INVESTOR and provided Cakewalk with several more years of opportunity to balance the situation.
Cakewalk then proceeded to execute a litany of transparently desperate attempts to secure revenue at minimal expense, but it seems to have cost too much to do so.
Gibson is a privately held company so the facts about Cakewalk disappeared from public view. Meanwhile, the minister of propaganda lambasted anybody that commented about the business and the obvious situation with insulting rhetoric.
The perspective, as I see it, is that Gibson saved the day for Cakewalk, but that was several years ago, and Gibson can no longer afford to prop up a operation that will not support itself.
I still rely on SONAR 8.5.3 for my work, but paid my way through to Platinum Lifetime updates hoping that someday someone would emerge and lead the company with common sense. It always seemed to me that if Cakewalk merely focused on the DAW, and not a smorgasbord of free goodies that cost a lot of resources and money to serve up, the company could find efficiency and prosperity by serving the customers who realize how dependent they are on timely and effective service. Users such as myself, who want to continue to capitalize on the skills they have learned using SONAR and will gladly pay to support an operation focused on maintenance rather than bloating.
Witnessing Cakewalk's downward spiral caused by its insistence on catering to, and cultivating the patronage of, a community of cheapskates has been disappointing. I am not surprised by the vile backlash targeted at Gibson which is being voiced by this community. It was focused on getting something for next to nothing and now it has panicked at the realization that there is nothing more to get.
I have also been and continue to be perplexed by the myopic focus on a popular myth that electronic music has replaced traditional forms of music. Guitar and acoustic piano sales remain strong and the sales numbers for those categories dwarf the sales activity of electronic music devices by twenty fold. Digital audio software companies that entertain the interests of musicians that use staff notation seem to be doing as well. Presonus is a good example. Electronic music may seem popular on the "charts", but It has seemed obvious that any business in the music instruments industry that chooses to ignore the opportunity to serve the millions and millions of people who already know, and continue to learn, how to play traditional forms of music is operating with an easy to identify opportunity cost.
In any event, Gibson was an angel investor that saved Cakewalk and gave it a chance to survive. It bought Cakewalk when no one else could afford to touch it. It must have been a great struggle to justify a sponsorship such as this. We will never know how much money Gibson wasted in an attempt to keep Cakewalk afloat while users continued to enjoy receiving product.
I appreciate Gibson for having tried.
Thank you.
There is a lot of emotion being expressed on these forums the past few days. It's understandable, but I appreciate your data driven opinion, even if your data is well past its sell-by date. However until quite recently Cakewalk customers, including me, were buying upgrades every year or so after having bought the original program. So when you refer to me and others as "a community of cheapskates," I guess you have decided you don't need any data to support that personal smear. So f*ck you for that.
SONAR Platinum 2017.10 • CbB • Win10 • i7/2600 • 16GB RAM • Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 • NVIDIA GeForce 8400GS
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Kylotan
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 22:34:16
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I think Anderton's explanations are exactly in line with what I would think. Cakewalk has been losing money with Sonar because the DAW business is a tough one. It's likely that Studio One, Logic, and Reaper all lose money too, either being loss leaders for another product or a labour of love by someone who has money to burn. With so many good competing products I wouldn't be at all surprised if only the top 2 or 3 make money consistently. How many word processors make a profit? How many commercial competitors does Photoshop have? How much did you pay for your web browser?
I used to be very angry at Cakewalk because there were so many Sonar bugs that affected my workflow. But I came to realise that they just did not have the resources to both fix those bugs and deliver the new features they required in order to compete. I never got the feeling that the Cakewalk people lacked ambition or vision, just that they couldn't possibly deliver everything we asked for in a reasonable timescale while continuing to build on the codebase they had with the income and team size available to them.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
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paulo
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 22:40:55
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☄ Helpfulby jamesg1213 2017/11/24 09:36:57
jamesyoyo
mister happy
Blah, blah, blah etc......
Are you just trying to be a jerk?
No, I don't I think he is - it just comes to him naturally.
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aidanodr
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 23:09:15
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☄ Helpfulby SteveStrummerUK 2017/11/25 02:56:57
About this SOFTWARE PIRACY thing.
Anderton said above "Software theft is still a huge problem, and a software-only company like Cakewalk has a really tough climb ahead of it."
However we live in a world and an online world now .. especially amongst millenials+ where EVERYTHING AS A RIGHT IS FREE inc Music and software via cracks and the like. These people do not want to pay for anything because why should they, its for free all around them.
A 17 year old acquaintance of mine. I said to him "Your earning a bit of cash now, like music, why not pay a tenner a month for Spotify and have every album ever made at any time". Answer I got back was, "why should I, I can just listen to what I want for free on YouTube"
So software theft in my mind does not matter because these people are never going to be paying customers anyway. If they couldnt get cracked software for free they certainly are NOT going to pay for it. So count these people out of the figures for perspective buyers of likes of Sonar.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 23:16:32
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The title of this thread made me reflect back on Roland and that overall they have maintianed a pretty good reputation for making quality gear. Pricey, but scertainly a company I've learned to trust. All my Roland gear ( and Yamaha too) still works. My 505 is from 1984 and It has never been shelved. It s been abused and tossed around, put in road cases without protection. Anyhow, they are Japenese and the Japanese businesses seem to have pride of workmanship and quailty control. I own 2 Subaru's one was made in Japan, the other in the USA. The Japenese one is holding together better ans so far has had not one issue at 200,000 K. I have a few Japenese instruments and I think they are more than equal to any made in USA. Anyhow being the good business people they were at Roland, I can see why they opted out of a shinking ship. I'm not sure where they make their money these days as their product line has certainly not changed in a decade. It would seem they know what they are doing and stopped wasting money on development a while back. A local boy Jeff Koftinoff who wrote software for Atari later worked for Roland and was the person that made the software to edit the MT 32 and a lot of Roland synths. He worked for them for a long time. Hey, he still has his web site- http://www.jdkoftinoff.com/The Pro Midi player still to this day the best thing I ever used live. I asked him to add the joystick/ Footswitch option and paid him $100 to customize my version. He added it as a regular feature. I was even tempted to run STeam the Atari ST Emulator on a XP laptop and use his program again. It midi output driving Sonar or reason loaded with VST's. I was a Roland dealer when I had my music store and that was my first experiance with Cakewalk as I was given a bunch of Disks to hand out when I sold the Piano's and whatnot. It was in the late 90's and I think it was Guitar studio. I didn't have a PC yet but I still had a disk in 2000 when I got my first PC. I would say that that disk is 100% responsable for me being a Sonar die hard. And die hard I will remain. I will continue to use Sonar, I will even go to any trouble it takes me to make it work for as long as possible. And I am optomistic that the Cakewalk code will re surface someday just in time to save my arse.
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BenMMusTech
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 23:55:16
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☄ Helpfulby aidanodr 2017/11/24 00:07:26
There is a lot of interesting thoughts and opinions contained in this thread.
Firstly, lets think of the last 300 years of western art music like this - music composition, drives music innovation, which drives music technology...think Beethoven and the piano forte and Queen and Bohemian Rhapsody. Yes you can draw a metaphorical line between Beethoven and Queen. Now lets think about how artists have payed in the past to the present for their work. Beethoven freed us from the tyranny of the church, and gave composers some level of autonomy and freedom. This was the beginning of the capitalist system, because it was the aristocracy that stepped in and became the patron of the arts. Through modernism, and because of the copy problem...the veneration of art ceased and the cult of personality became the thing people brought...art was still amazing mind you because you know, even John Lennon still had to learn an instrument and sing. We're now at a point in the history of music, and indeed the history of humankind where change - the digital disruption is forcing us to reevaluate everything. The guitar, like the violin is fading...Gibson is proving this. It is sad, but what the composer has at his or her fingertips makes the guitar look very limiting. As is the notion of the band. Furthermore, there is nowhere for bands to perform anymore, and in reality only spotty faced teens and people in their early 20s ever really supported this model
There is no money in recorded music anymore...so software only companies will suffer and like the violin and the guitar go the way of the dodo. It should never have happened to Cakewalk...I'm still struggling to find another DAW that records at 64bitfp and indeed has upsampling. These two things are the software solution to the hardware problem. This is what Cakewalk should have been trumpeting. Of course, the hype of Crapple - It Works - also created a false myth that it was a Crapple computer or nothing for creatives. It was a clever lie, which has now caused larger problems across music technology creators. The Crapple app money myth too has created a problem, I've said this...but I've investigated mobile music making technology, and for the most part the software was a gimmick and a toy. No serious composer or indeed musician could make great anything off this junk. Now we're back to my opening gambit, because if I'm right...we're now in a bottleneck situation...because there is no one pushing music composition, which is needed to drive music innovation, which is needed to drive music technology. The proof is not just in the failing of once behemoth companies like Gibson, and boutique brands like Cakewalk...it is also in the sickness of our music schools and conservatoriums. The next big push in music technology will probably come in the form of augmented reality controllers, and virtual reality performance...or this seems to be the logical next step, but we will still need composers to push in this direction...but because of an earlier bottleneck, which popular music has propagated or the lack of music literacy is going to hamper this.
We're now in a situation, which history suggests is a fait accompli - where we're at the beginning again. Before Mozart, before Beethoven and indeed before The Beatles, there was no money in music and people mostly played for themselves simple folk tunes...there of course was religious music too. This is where contemporary music and sound culture is at now.
We're going to have to hold on, and I hope the lack of input from Cakewalk on this forum means something is happening in the background with Microsoft...because Sonar is still ahead of the curve ball in regards to their mix engine. And if we're going to start a new A.V or audio-visual music revolution...Sonar will be the program needed the most to lead this charge. And I use the term audio-visual music because sound or music cannot be divorced from one another in The Internet age!
Peace and Love Neb
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BenMMusTech
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/23 23:57:23
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Oh and P.S...I hope everyone at Cakewalk are ok. You've done a great job over the years, and put up with a lot of abuse...including some from me. I apologize for that.
Peace and Love Neb
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Anderton
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/24 04:05:33
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☄ Helpfulby Mitch_I 2017/11/24 20:28:21
azslow3
With all respect Craig, but...
You was very close to that all. So:
Anderton
a) Software theft is still a huge problem...
a) The first was an argument when new copy protection was introduced. Had it any success? Was it worse the money invested? If no, why it is still there? If yes, why you again mention that? I always get I trouble when I talk about the industry in general because people assume I am talking only about Cakewalk. You are correct that copy protection is ineffective and does not stop software theft. However that means software theft is still occurring. What percentage would have been purchased is unknown. I suspect it would be low but even 5% would make a big difference to software companies, and could mean the difference between breaking even to keep the lights on, and making a profit to fuel further development. I was tracking almost all your posts, CW posts, outside info... What I have not seen is any spells HOW Gibson tried to make it success. Keep reading... yevster
Anderton
All of this is more complicated than it appears on the surface. For example, I don't think digital performer is keeping Motu alive. I think it's the interfaces. Pro Tools, Cubase, Studio One, Ableton, Logic all have hardware components. You can't download hardware from a torrent! Software theft is still a huge problem, and a software-only company like Cakewalk has a really tough climb ahead of it. If everyone who used Sonar had paid for it, the situation could be very different. Also bear in mind that it has to compete with Logic, backed by a company with 88 billion dollars in the bank or more, Audacity which is free, and Reaper, which was bankrolled by someone who made half a billion dollars selling a program to AOL.
With all due respect to Craig, I don't think any of his proposed explanations hold water.
The competition with Logic is also an insufficient explanation, as every DAW competes with Logic, and every DAW (aside from Cubase) has a full-featured product tier at the $200 level. Sonar did too, yet somehow it is the only one is being shuttered. First, you seem to have missed my main point, which was that hardware is keeping a lot of software companies alive. Cakewalk = no hardware = skating on thinnest ice. Second, everyone competes with Logic, and I think that's one reason why Pro Tools' market share is down. There is no question Logic impacted Digital Performer as well. Reaper has taken market share from Cubase, Sonar, Studio One, and others. Audacity has impacted Sound Forge, Audition, and Wavelab. Because Cakewalk was indeed skating on the thinnest ice (with part of that being Windows-only), it fell through first. It may not be the last. Maybe "thinning the herd" will transfer some resources to the remaining companies so they can be healthier. I propose an alternative explanation: Cakewalk existed in a bubble. It had a tendency to promote from within. Product managers became executives, QA people became product managers - there seemed to be no product leaders coming from the outside who were not already deeply entrenched in the company or Sonar. This kind of insularity and groupthink can render a company unable to respond to changing markets and demands. Long-time users of the same product can fail to notice usability flaws and design defects that are glaring and, perhaps, prohibitive for a newcomer. I'll address this and Azslow3's points just this one time, and then let it go. I wanted to talk about industry-wide issues rather than issues unique to Cakewalk but since you raised the issue, I largely agree. For the past year, I've disagreed with Cakewalk's management (different from Gibson management; Cakewalk was an independent division in Boston) about Cakewalk's direction as well as SONAR's direction. To be clear it's not uncommon in business for people with strong opinions to disagree about a company's direction, and it's nothing personal. In any event, I was not part of the decision-making process. Last fall, Cakewalk was doing well from the lifetime updates and I based my optimistic assessment of the company's future at that time, when people were saying lifetime updates would kill Cakewalk, around the follow-up plans - a few public, most not - that were in place, and which I believed would be very successful. For whatever reason, almost all those plans were not pursued. I'm not saying that had I been listened to Cakewalk would still be here; I don't know. All I do know is that what was pursued didn't work. I don't agree that Gibson "didn't do anything." Gibson is not really a software company, and I believe it generally entrusted Cakewalk's future to Cakewalk, as well as kept it going for almost four years even as it kept piling up losses. Also, Gibson gave a lot of my time (and I'm not cheap) to help Cakewalk - the eZine, the 30th anniversary freebies, expansion packs, writing press releases, beta testing, two books, the Tip of the Week, forum maintenance and user support, convincing TASCAM to pack SONAR in the TASCAM interfaces instead of Windows Cubase (there was no Mac solution, but my friends at Ableton took up the slack), working out a deal with Big Fish Audio that was going to come to fruition in full starting in January, doing seminars and workshops at AES, NAMM, and GearFest...I feel it was a lot. I also did much of it on my own time because I wanted to see the company succeed. (I still have content sitting on the shelf, including some cool expansion packs, that never was distributed to the community because Cakewalk management believed content has no value.) Even though I was helping only with the peripherals, not the core business plan, I hoped it would help. It didn't. I tried. Peace out.
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deswind
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/24 04:14:30
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This makes a lot of sense to me. I would be happy paying an annual fee to help finance Cakewalk, donate money, and even have a dongle to help with theft. (I have never had a problem with a dongle including the one I have for Steinberg Wavelab). I was always worried about this. The lifetime subscription seemed dangerous. And I had no problem paying for updates. I want the software engineers to be well paid and have good morale. THANKS Craig for what you do to help people on this forum and thanks to all the Cakewalk people. Let's have a little optimism here and not assume the worse. But that is not stopping me from checking out Cubase 9.5. Anderton
All of this is more complicated than it appears on the surface. For example, I don't think digital performer is keeping Motu alive. I think it's the interfaces. Pro Tools, Cubase, Studio One, Ableton, Logic all have hardware components. You can't download hardware from a torrent! Software theft is still a huge problem, and a software-only company like Cakewalk has a really tough climb ahead of it. If everyone who used Sonar had paid for it, the situation could be very different. Also bear in mind that it has to compete with Logic, backed by a company with 88 billion dollars in the bank or more, Audacity which is free, and Reaper, which was bankrolled by someone who made half a billion dollars selling a program to AOL.
Consider Studio One. It's worth it for PreSonus to have developed it if for no other reason so that it didn't have to pay license fees to another company to include software in their interfaces. The fact that it has taken off on its own is welcome for them, of course, but that's in addition to other valid reasons why it should exist.
I truly believe Gibson wanted to make Cakewalk succeed where others had failed. Unfortunately despite years of trying, it just didn't happen. I think there was some hope that something would pull it out at the last minute, like momentum. The person behind momentum was convinced it would be a huge success, but when it was introduced, it did not garner much interest and certainly did not garner much income...certainly not enough to justify keeping the company going. It's definitely a sad turn of events, but I can tell you that Gibson did want Cakewalk to be successful, it just couldn't make it happen any more then Roland could.
I do think that the announcement from Gibson should have been more specific about what will happen with the community, and the current owners. However the transition team at Cakewalk is going to be tying up loose ends, and don't forget that Cakewalk has always been a very customer-centric company. I think they're going to do everything they can to make sure existing customers can use the software for as long as possible so that people have time to transition to something else if that's the path that they need to take, or to see if by some chance something does happen with Cakewalk.
We will see what the future brings. Remember that the music industry is a fashion industry and everything can change in a matter of moments. Sometimes that works against you, as it has in this case. But, sometimes that works in your favor. If I could see the future, I would be buying and selling stocks, not writing books, doing seminars, and consulting.
In retrospect, there were probably things that could have been done to save Cakewalk. But while Sonar had an undo function, life does not, and that's why we are where we are...
Anderton
All of this is more complicated than it appears on the surface. For example, I don't think digital performer is keeping Motu alive. I think it's the interfaces. Pro Tools, Cubase, Studio One, Ableton, Logic all have hardware components. You can't download hardware from a torrent! Software theft is still a huge problem, and a software-only company like Cakewalk has a really tough climb ahead of it. If everyone who used Sonar had paid for it, the situation could be very different. Also bear in mind that it has to compete with Logic, backed by a company with 88 billion dollars in the bank or more, Audacity which is free, and Reaper, which was bankrolled by someone who made half a billion dollars selling a program to AOL.
Consider Studio One. It's worth it for PreSonus to have developed it if for no other reason so that it didn't have to pay license fees to another company to include software in their interfaces. The fact that it has taken off on its own is welcome for them, of course, but that's in addition to other valid reasons why it should exist.
I truly believe Gibson wanted to make Cakewalk succeed where others had failed. Unfortunately despite years of trying, it just didn't happen. I think there was some hope that something would pull it out at the last minute, like momentum. The person behind momentum was convinced it would be a huge success, but when it was introduced, it did not garner much interest and certainly did not garner much income...certainly not enough to justify keeping the company going. It's definitely a sad turn of events, but I can tell you that Gibson did want Cakewalk to be successful, it just couldn't make it happen any more then Roland could.
I do think that the announcement from Gibson should have been more specific about what will happen with the community, and the current owners. However the transition team at Cakewalk is going to be tying up loose ends, and don't forget that Cakewalk has always been a very customer-centric company. I think they're going to do everything they can to make sure existing customers can use the software for as long as possible so that people have time to transition to something else if that's the path that they need to take, or to see if by some chance something does happen with Cakewalk.
We will see what the future brings. Remember that the music industry is a fashion industry and everything can change in a matter of moments. Sometimes that works against you, as it has in this case. But, sometimes that works in your favor. If I could see the future, I would be buying and selling stocks, not writing books, doing seminars, and consulting.
In retrospect, there were probably things that could have been done to save Cakewalk. But while Sonar had an undo function, life does not, and that's why we are where we are...
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pwalpwal
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/24 09:00:11
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AndertonPro Tools, Cubase, Studio One, Ableton, Logic all have hardware components.
but cakewalk failed with the roland hardware, and didn't do anything with the tascam opportunity, what's that all about?
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Kylotan
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/24 12:05:08
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Maybe Roland just didn't see enough benefit for it to be worth holding on to Cakewalk. Personally I think Roland's direction of recent years has been very questionable so maybe their strategic planning is not as effective as it should be.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
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fitzj
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/24 13:15:39
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☄ Helpfulby SteveStrummerUK 2017/11/25 03:01:00
Momento, whoever was behind it at Cakewalk was a serious mistake as was the Apple migration project. Wasted money.
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Starise
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/24 14:28:31
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Of course much of what happens behind the scenes is only speculation. Having said that , I believe much of what I've read is probably true in coming from people with a background or experience in business.
I find it interesting that a few old time posters who haven't been seen for years suddenly show up when the ship looks to be going down. Are these the people offering solutions? No. They are here to either stir things up more or get some kind of perverted thrill seeing a good 30 year company bite the dust. I don't have any time for you and you know who you are.
Like everyone else I have my own thoughts which may or may not be right. Two years ago I went to Boston. while there I tried to locate Cakewalk out of curiosity. They were in some office building that would take an act of God to get into, at least for a non Bostonian. I never attempted to get closer when I seen where it was.They weren't receptive to visitors, even those who just wanted to see a store front or a sign. If you weren't invited, then don't try to come around. This was the feel I took away from there. No one here led me to believe that a 5 minute meetup with one of the Bakers was something that could happen, though I think that would have mean't a lot to me as a Sonar user to pop in shake a hand and say hello.
Boston is an expensive area to live in. Rents and taxes are high there. Software is portable, so I had to scratch my head in wondering why they couldn't relocate to save money? I'm certain they could have cut their operation expenses in half by moving somewhere else.
I suspect that some of the coding was subbed out. I notice a trend with companies like iZotope. Notice the distinctly Indian accent of the man in the videos describing how Neutron works.
I tend to believe the Cake office in Boston was largely a marketing office with a few coders.
Trying to be too many different things and loosing the base was probably the largest mistake.
I don't think the skylight interface killed them. It was a great improvement to work flow. 8.5 was an old school piece of software. Cake needed to move into something else. I simply LOVE what they did with it. I don't think I speak alone when I say most welcomes it but a few old timers would never accept the new way.
A sign of the times I am sure of that. Adapt or be assimilated. I think they tried to adapt but wasted too much energy on apps and not enough in customer support. There are always hindsights.
If Cake survives as something else in the future please use these mistakes as lessons learned.
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The Maillard Reaction
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post edited by mister happy - 2017/12/25 02:19:49
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DeeringAmps
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/24 16:59:28
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Good advice!
Pay attention children.
T
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azslow3
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Re: Interesting info on Roland's sale of Cakewalk to Gibson...
2017/11/24 23:13:27
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Anderton
I was tracking almost all your posts, CW posts, outside info... What I have not seen is any spells HOW Gibson tried to make it success.
Keep reading...
Effectively, you write that Gibson has not "tricked" Cakewalk and you with the devil plan (I have linked before), so Cakewalk has written own suicide sequence internally and precisely followed it till the end (with some attempts to choose different roads, but declining these attempt). While you and Henry was watching from outside, with thoughts "Hm... what are they doing?" I (and many other here) prefer to blame Gibson (or Trump with Putin... or Trump only... in Germany the last was prime line till Jamayka ) But with the point that Gibson has "invested" you as the help for Cakewalk I agree by 200%. I think that your activity in the forum, eZine and "the content" was more valuable then most questionable features and movements these years (related to the convincing way you have explained and supported all that). I mean if you will mention only one another DAW during next several days on this forum, this DAW will probably be installed on 50% of Sonar computers 
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