Is Ableton Live Worth Purchasing?

I posted this on KVR, but no one seemed to have anything to say. Maybe you guys could help out a bit.


.....Before I begin let me say that I've been to the Ableton forums, and Unicornation...and I've searched through sooooo many threads on KVR, but I'm still having a bit of a time finding unbiased opinions of what Ableton Live would bring to a DP 5 setup or Sonar setup.. My current work involves video editing and remixing tracks to video to use mostly for commercial spots and helping advertising agencies to attract new business. Oh yeah...I'm abit into this production thing as well.



Currently I'm running Sonar 6/Reason 3 on a PC. Sonar is sometimes being slaved to DP. I'm not a DJ although I have used Ableton 5 twice to play sets at wedding receptions last Summer. I wouldn't count on doing this often.

As far as loop features are concerned, both DP and Sonar have great looping features. Sonar has a new audiowarp feature, but it still isn't as seamless as using Ableton's warp features/engine or so I've heard. +1 for Ableton.

To sum this story up, I often use Kontakt 2.2, Stylus RMX, and even Dr. Rex/Recycle now for the bulk of my drump looping/drum programming. What am I missing from the programs I've mentioned that Ableton could bring to the table? How would you grade Ableton's learning curve? Any opinions on how I could improve workflow would be fantastic.


Example of my current workflow....

Chop loop in Recycle...
Convert recycled loop for use in RMX...
Add additional drum programming using Kontakt drum scripts or MPC...

Proceed to using other softsynths, Reason, midi editing....


I usually work with Avid/DP/Sonar, but I've yet to use Live with video. Am I to understand that you can warp music to your video in Live, but you can't export both the video and audio together? Sorry if this post seems a bit confusing, but I really am trying to see why so many people consider Live such a great tool. I'd especially like to hear from anyone using Live in conjunction with another DAW.


Thanks in advance for the help.

P.S. demos are available and are really the only way to "get" what all the Live hype is about. Learning curve is pretty short, actually, so long as you forget everything you know about DAWs before you begin. Session vs. Arrangement view is tricky conceptually, but comes together with a bit of trial and error.

Hmmm, you're probably asking in too general a forum - the P5 forum might contain more like minded souls.
Me, I find stuff like Live, Reason and P5 a complete mystery.

I do wonder if the name they gave to Live might be a clue that it was originally intended for triggering in loops and audio in live performance - do you play loops live?

1. Because I really don't think I have the time, patience, or interest in learning yet another DAW. When I buy music apps I try to get as much out of them as possible because hey this stuff doesn't come for cheap, and I don't want to feel like I've cheated myself out of time and money.

Same here. Especially with regards to time. It's so easy to buy the shiny new toy/tool, but really are you going to find time to use it? I always try to find the one tool that will get it all done, and stick with that. For me that was always Sonar, until I started to recognize the need for a good VST host for live use. I gave Project 5 a shot but it just had too many weak spots (most glaringly, seriously gimpy routing.) That was how I stumbled on Live - I wasn't necessarily looking to augment or replace my DAW, I needed a tool for an entirely different scenario. But for me, Live turns out to be good for composing and the early stages of recording as well. I really love Live, but I still consider Sonar a better environment for heavy editing, mixing etc.

I don't get the impression that you want another app - sounds more like you need some good plugins to meet some addt'l requirements in Sonar. There's got to be a 3rd party equivalent of Beat Repeat, for instance. But some time behind the demo is the only way to find out whether Live resonates for you or not. It's worth noting that P5 and Live cover a lot of the same bases, but some folks love P5 and hate Live, and vice-versa. So it's a totally personal thing.

I still say less is more, and if the need doesn't jump right out and bite, skip it.

ORIGINAL: Ognis

I downloaded the demo, and it made no sence to me, so I deleted it. I did the same with Reason, which made me realize I had plenty already (Sonar, P5, FL Studio, PT, Sony, etc).. I think if you are doing fine with what you got, getting more is not always the best. I still don't understand why you wouldn't just download the demo though..

LOL! Are you kidding me? The funny thing is I've downloaded Live demos since version 3 was released. Each time I would test it...find nothing TRULY amazing, delete it.....and then I'd still turn around listening to or reading why everyone considered it to be such a great program. hell there were people even claiming to have left Logic, Cubase, and Sonar for Live. I've always been curious, but I just couldn't see any benefit to adding Live to my setup.

ORIGINAL: Jed

Live is great for arranging drum tracks.

You can throw in a bunch of midi or audio loops to a track via session view and jam on them for a while to you get something you like. Then you can record your live triggering of loops to Lives arrange view.

Best of all when it comes time to edit the recorded track, its REALLY easy (compared to Sonar) to drag and drop fills from the browser to the arrange track where you want them with no gap to the audio stream whilst you are doing it.

Sonar is really bad at this.

Live's big downfall for me is that when running in rewire slave mode it wont let you load VSTi's - UNBELIEVABLE!!!

Cheers
Jed

I have to agree with this 110% The big downfall for me is Live in Rewire. If I wanted to use Spectrasonics Atmosphere with Live's arp....no luck! I don't want to have to open Live first to lay down each midi track, then having to shut Live down to open in sonar for bouncing. I want to keep all of my midi tracks within either DP or Sonar since I'm familiar with their editing tools.



Seems that in my case, Live would be great to use for audio and warping, and maybe the occasional DJ stint at wedding receptions. I can understand why someone would use Live as his/her main DAW, but combined with Sonar?????? Five hundred for a scratch pad? Let me think that one over. Actually I'm surprised more people haven't chimed in on this one. Maybe I did post this in the wrong forum.

I've been an avid Live user since version 3. At first I didn't "get it" either and stayed with Sonar(2.2XL). Then, the second time I tried it, I found it to be the most intuitive program out there. I have only had to open the manual once. With Live 6 I didn't even bother getting the manual. There is a misconception out there that Live is just for DJ's or live use. I don't use it like that. Live has one aspect which is truly revolutionary- the Session view. At first glance you may not "get it" because it offers a non-linear way of composing which you would have never experienced before. Session view can spark your music in directions you would never imagine if you stay stuck in linear mode with all the other sequencers. btw-nothing can touch the warping and gapless performance of Ableton Live. Project 5 v2 was "redesigned" as Ableton Live only with the x and y axes inverted.

I posted this on KVR, but no one seemed to have anything to say. Maybe you guys could help out a bit.


.....Before I begin let me say that I've been to the Ableton forums, and Unicornation...and I've searched through sooooo many threads on KVR, but I'm still having a bit of a time finding unbiased opinions of what Ableton Live would bring to a DP 5 setup or Sonar setup.. My current work involves video editing and remixing tracks to video to use mostly for commercial spots and helping advertising agencies to attract new business. Oh yeah...I'm abit into this production thing as well.

I was considering converting to Ableton Live for my midi sequencing because of Sonar's lack of in certain areas. I decided to not convert to Live (even though Sonar ticks me off in certain areas). Here is how I see Live.

PROS:

1. Live session view seems like a great idea for chaining together multiple patterns (like your mpc does).

2. Auto Quantize is implemented

3. Impulse and Simpler module allows samples to be loaded into them by dragging in clips from the track view or menus (only sampler I heard of that can do that so far).

4. Built in tools for timestretching audio.

5. Arming and unarming of audio/midi tracks on the fly.

6. Gapless audio engine.

CONS:

1. You will have to learn a whole new program (regardless if you dig Live's features or not)

2. Auto Quantize feature is too basic to be serious (compare with your MPC which allows you to offset your track, change swing settings etc.)

3. No way to create patch lists for hardware synthesizers.

4. No DXI support

5. While Live can arm and unarm tracks on the fly it doesn't have an auto arm midi tracks feature.

6. You have to arm softsynth or Rewire tracks to hear them (compare with Sonar where you just have to select the appropriate midi track to hear it as long as it is not muted).

7. Limited Audio editing (maybe even more limited than Sonar's)

8. Limited Midi editing (although it has some nice midi effects, it comes nowhere near cal, Sonar's event list/interpolate/drum/notation/CAL/Offline midi editing).

9. Auto Timestretching is built into engine, which some people says can have an effect on sound quality (even with no timestretching being applied. I hear some people complain about the lack of bass).



For Remixing, I'd bet Sonar would mainly get the job done.

Learn the Audiosnap feature, from what I hear it is supposed to be a combination of Live's auto timestretching features and Pro Tools beat detective.

I'd also invest in Sound Forge for a more dedicated audio editor.

Since you have Reason, Recycle is another good app and remember Sonar has an RXP player which is pretty good.

Learn how to create Groove Clips and manipulate them.



I think with all of that you'd be well on your way for handling many remix projects and from what I hear Sonar integrates video pretty well (I haven't tried it from experience though).