ampfixer
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 1:09 PM
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I've not had a real problem opening projects going back to ver 8.5. The files always open. My problem is with the synths I've used on those projects. A typical example would be the program telling me that Rapture is not available and is required for tracks 3 & 5. Rapture IS available and always has been. I'm using all the default file locations, as I have ever since I got involved with Sonar.
That problem is annoying, but not fatal. I've always wondered why Sonar doesn't seem to find the bundled soft synths when I open old projects.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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scook
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 1:19 PM
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It s possible the Rapture used in the legacy projects is DirectX? If so, the host needs the appropriate DirectX plug-in to load in the project. There is no facility to replace a DirectX plug-in with the appropriate VST version.
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ampfixer
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 1:53 PM
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That's a good question scook. I'll have to look into that. I assumed that the full versions of Dim Pro and Rapture would always be supported. They still work fine and I didn't realise that Direct X could be a compatibility issue.
Time for me to do some sleuthing.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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jatoth
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 2:36 PM
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Thats an incorrect speculation. You can load and save a project as many times you want and there is no bloat. If there is it would be considered a bug. There were some issues with Audiosnap a long time ago which could cause excessive markers. But with plugins there is no such issue of "bloat".
The "bloat" I'm referring to is not speculation. I experience it. The reason for the bloat IS pure speculation. As I compose in a project, I generally write MIDI in staff view. I try many VSTi instruments before settling on the ones I'll ultimately keep. I'll write a few tracks, load instruments, delete instruments, load new instruments, freeze then bounce to audio, clone the track, then delete them all except the original MIDI and start again. Many times throughout this process I "Save As" to keep different versions. When I am ultimately "finished" with writing in the project, I bounce everything to audio, delete all MIDI tracks and VSTi instruments that were loaded and start "mixing", again "Saving As". Each iteration of the project shows a larger file size even though I have gone from 40 tracks down to 10, and from dozens of VSTis down to none and 10-20 MIDI tracks down to none. Am I the only one experiencing this?
John X3e Producer, Sonar Platinum, Sweetwater CreationStation i5 3.1gHz, 12 GB RAM, 500GB SSD OS drive, 1TB SSD audio drive, 1TB archive/misc drive, dual 22" monitors, Windows 7x64, SaffirePro40 (firewire), MOTU MIDI Express XT, Behringer BCF2000, dbx 586, Samson Servo 120a, Yamaha HS80M, Auratone 5c Cubes, Sennheiser HD650, Sony MDR 7509HD, Sony MDR 7506, Kurzweil K2500XS, Roland XP-30, Proteus 2000.
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 3:02 PM
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Sorry I didn't intend to marginalize what you are observing - sorry if it came off that way. If all you have in the project are instruments and MIDI, I'd be interested in see some of the iterations of the project that keep increasing in size - esp if you can demonstrate that simply re-saving the same project with a given set of instruments increases the size. SONAR should be saving exactly the same data no matter how many times you save it - timestamps etc may change but the size should not assuming no new data was added. FWIW I have a few projects that have gone through months of iterations some that came from Version 8 or earlier. None of them exhibit bloat or instability so I can't say I've ever experienced this personally. I don't use many virtual instruments though. Maybe a couple per project at most. Any of the symptoms you describe could very well relate to plugin bugs however so its very possible that one user might exhibit a problem that someone else doesn't, depending on the plugins in use. Bottom line is investigation is required before a conclusion can be reached in such cases because there are a lot of variables. We take project persistence issues very seriously, so if a demonstrable problem is found in SONAR that causes problems it will get fixed quickly if identified as a SONAR bug. Mark any logged issues in this area as "SONAR persistence" so that it can be highlighted more easily.
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - February 21, 16 3:48 PM
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 3:07 PM
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ampfixer
I've not had a real problem opening projects going back to ver 8.5. The files always open. My problem is with the synths I've used on those projects. A typical example would be the program telling me that Rapture is not available and is required for tracks 3 & 5. Rapture IS available and always has been. I'm using all the default file locations, as I have ever since I got involved with Sonar.
That problem is annoying, but not fatal. I've always wondered why Sonar doesn't seem to find the bundled soft synths when I open old projects.
Scook mentioned the DX issue. Besides that, around X2 we addressed a common problem with plugins identification caused by short file names that could change. Older projects don't use the new identification system so could be prone to that issue. However if you re-save the project in a new version of SONAR the issue should not recur.
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jpetersen
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 3:22 PM
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
...Bitbridge is a sandbox albeit only for 32 bit plugins. Jbridge allows sandboxing even 64 bitplugins. The downside to sandboxing is obviously performance (and potentially other bugs). So there is no perfect solution today.
Thank you for the insights!
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jatoth
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 4:46 PM
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Noel,
The issue I tried to describe is not saving the same project as it was many times.
It is when I add tracks/synths/plugs save as then delete tracks/synths/plugs and save as again.
After I delete tracks/synths/plugs and save as a new project file, the file size does not go down.
The space for the deleted items is not released. If you do this many times, the file just keeps growing.
John X3e Producer, Sonar Platinum, Sweetwater CreationStation i5 3.1gHz, 12 GB RAM, 500GB SSD OS drive, 1TB SSD audio drive, 1TB archive/misc drive, dual 22" monitors, Windows 7x64, SaffirePro40 (firewire), MOTU MIDI Express XT, Behringer BCF2000, dbx 586, Samson Servo 120a, Yamaha HS80M, Auratone 5c Cubes, Sennheiser HD650, Sony MDR 7509HD, Sony MDR 7506, Kurzweil K2500XS, Roland XP-30, Proteus 2000.
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kitekrazy1
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 5:08 PM
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I use to keep previous versions of Sonar installed just in case. The program files don't use a lot of space. On one machine I had Sonar 7 all the way to X3. I usually avoid bun files and put everything in a folder and zipped it. Interesting though is I've never had a bun file fail. I have one from the Gigastudio 2.5 days that opens up. In general older projects are not fool proof on most DAWs except really simple ones like EnergyXT.
post edited by kitekrazy1 - February 21, 16 5:25 PM
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Cactus Music
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 7:05 PM
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I'm I missing something or would not a project that was originally midi and soft synths that was bounced to audio certainly become larger. Audio tracks are what takes up data size.
A midi only CWP file will not be very large.
As far as I can tell if you "save as" to a new folder location and tell it to "copy audio" it will leave old audio files behind in the old location.
If you just "save as" in the same folder, the old unused auido is still there.
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 9:11 PM
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jatoth
Noel,
The issue I tried to describe is not saving the same project as it was many times.
It is when I add tracks/synths/plugs save as then delete tracks/synths/plugs and save as again.
After I delete tracks/synths/plugs and save as a new project file, the file size does not go down.
The space for the deleted items is not released. If you do this many times, the file just keeps growing.
Are you sure that you are deleting the synth itself from the synth rack? Deleting the tracks wont release much since the main storage is the synth itself. Its very unlikely that the synths are not released if you delete from the synth rack. Please verify that they are really deleted.
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mettelus
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 9:36 PM
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Cactus Music
I'm I missing something or would not a project that was originally midi and soft synths that was bounced to audio certainly become larger. Audio tracks are what takes up data size.
A midi only CWP file will not be very large.
As far as I can tell if you "save as" to a new folder location and tell it to "copy audio" it will leave old audio files behind in the old location.
If you just "save as" in the same folder, the old unused auido is still there.
The cwp doesn't actually contain audio, but pointers to the audio files. The cwp does, however, contain the MIDI data. Noel would have to give the definitive "what's in there," but the cwp will also contain unbounced Melodyne information (and I also believe AudioSnap info, but not sure). I remember testing the Melodyne in X3 and the cwp got rather large, and even deleting all of the temp files from the Celemony folder, it was all recreated when the cwp was opened (and was actually a noticeable delay during that recreation).
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Kev999
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 22, 16 7:11 PM
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I have been testing out a lot of old projects that were originally created in Sonar 7. I still have Sonar 7 installed alongside X2 and X3. Many of these projects appear to work ok at first when opened in X3 (or X2), but hang after a couple of playbacks or after doing a few small edits. But then on re-opening them in Sonar 7 they appear to be stable there.
Some plugins have been updated since the projects were created, but this should not be an issue. All these 3 versions of Sonar are currently accessing the same plugins.
64-bit v 32-bit is not a factor here. The projects that were created in 32-bit Sonar 7 are being access in 32-bit Sonar X3. Bitbridge is therefore not a factor either.
SonarPlatinum∞(22.11.0.111)|Mixbus32C(4.3.19)|DigitalPerformer(9.5.1)|Reaper(5.77)FractalDesign:DefineR5|i7-6850k@4.1GHz|16GB@2666MHz-DDR4|MSI:GamingProCarbonX99a|Matrox:M9148(x2)|UAD2solo(6.5.2)|W7Ult-x64-SP1
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Kylotan
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 23, 16 4:13 AM
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I have projects dating back to the Pro Audio/Home Studio days, and if anything they seem to be more stable than the newer ones, perhaps because I used fewer plugins back then.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
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ebibault51
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 23, 16 6:52 AM
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On many older projects (maybe X1 or X2) I have the following issue: the projects load but won't play. I click on play and nothing happens. The solution: copy and paste all the tracks into a SONAR Platinum project. Then you have to take time to configure the synths, etc. Very strange.
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ChristopherM
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 25, 16 7:06 AM
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Bitbridge is a sandbox albeit only for 32 bit plugins.
Noel, that's interesting, but it doesn't help me to understand why, whenever I get a Bitbridge crash (which I assume is what has happened when Windows throws a "Teleport Server has blaah, blaah" message) I find that Sonarplt.exe is "stuck" and typically unkillable, no option to "save the project" is offered and my (Roland) USB audio interface is out for the count and has to be coaxed back into life. Or I can reboot Windows. None of that is what a mere layman understands by the term "sandboxed". BTW, I am not blaming Sonar for the original crash, which will inevitably turn out to be caused by the presence of an outdated or out-of-kilter installation of a plug-in in an older project. I'm just curious to know why the consequences are typically so "game over".
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rickidoo
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 25, 16 1:16 PM
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Anderton
mettelus
I am not sure if this will help or has validity...This may be overkill, but the "save as..." is definitely recommended so that the original cwp is left as it was (and be opened in the version it was created in just in case).
This is SUPER valid and helpful advice. I've been doing what I do for a long time, and have gone through multiple versions of multiple types of software. As a result I've encountered what the OP has encountered in numerous programs, and your advice can solve many issues.
To this I'd like to add, I frequently find when I go to open an older project, if I hold the SHIFT key down, and select LOAD ALL, it still somehow cleans things up a bit resulting in more success opening older projects.
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Kev999
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 25, 16 2:44 PM
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ebibault51
On many older projects (maybe X1 or X2) I have the following issue: the projects load but won't play. I click on play and nothing happens. The solution: copy and paste all the tracks into a SONAR Platinum project. Then you have to take time to configure the synths, etc. Very strange.
If you have changed hardware since you last worked on the project, check that the Master bus output is not set to "None".
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cryophonik
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 25, 16 5:40 PM
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Every time that I've had a problem with Sonar opening an older project, I've been able to trace it to plugins that were behaving badly or outdated. There are a few culprits (e.g., Tone2, SpectrumWorx, Eiosis) that I used frequently in Sonar 6-X2 that will either cause a crash or not allow playback, until I find, remove, and reinstantiate the plugin(s).
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arlen2133
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 25, 16 6:54 PM
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Typically the issues I've had with older projects reside with the older plugins.
Within the last couple of months I've began working on a project that was started on Sonar5.
It's mostly audio & plugins (no VSTi's). I didn't want any hassles so I copied all of the audio to a new project template. I figure I can easily (and quickly) take advantage of the newest features from SPLAT.
So far, the project has been smooth sailing. No quirks (knock on wood).
Next weekend, we'll continue with recording more vocals (to get the songs up to current).
As smoothly as SPLAT has been running for me over the last year, I don't anticipate any hiccups.
Also, most of my "older" projects were saved as .bun files. It was my main way of archiving back then.
Haven't had one since issue with any of them. Not even the ones from other studios I worked with back then.
Arlen aka Mr Grant my music
Cakewalk by Bandlab, Sonar Platinum (2017.09) & X3e , Windows 7 64 bit, Intel I5 3.4 Ghz, 32 Gbs RAM, Saffire Pro40, various pres and VSTi's.
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2:43AM
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
March 20, 16 8:06 AM
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cryophonik
There are a few culprits (e.g., Tone2, SpectrumWorx, Eiosis) that I used frequently in Sonar 6-X2 that will either cause a crash or not allow playback, until I find, remove, and reinstantiate the plugin(s).
You see, that's a waste of time! The the plugins remain the same, but if they are removed and re-inserted, then the issue goes away. I just posted another issue, this time regarding the arp and bouncing, in another thread ( http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3388462). Another example of perhaps an "older project" causing issues.
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ryandavismusic
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
March 20, 16 5:44 PM
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Just upgraded from Sonar 8 to Sonar Platinum a week ago. Tried to open my projects and nothing happens, just a blank screen and a forever spinning cursor, so i figured backwards compatibility only considered the X series. It sounds like some people can get it working however is there a way around this? right now it's taking hours to save the midi clips and audio clips then reconstructing everything in platinum.
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John
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
March 20, 16 7:29 PM
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I would contact CW Ryan. There is no reason I know of for not being able to open an older project.
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ryandavismusic
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
March 20, 16 9:36 PM
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John
I would contact CW Ryan. There is no reason I know of for not being able to open an older project.
thanks will do! I haven't tried saving them as a .CWB yet so maybe that's the issue but .CWP's definitely do not seem to be working at all for me for some reason.
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John
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
March 20, 16 10:26 PM
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Don't save as a CWB file whatever you do. That is adding insult to injury.  That is not a cure for a problem it can cause a problem.
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