Helpful ReplyIs Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ?

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Afrodrum
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2015/10/03 10:08:43 (permalink)

Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ?

I have recently killed the temptation to buy Voxengo GlissEQ which is great plugin used by many I respect and first choice for some most experienced "Recording Review" forum members. Earlier I refrained from byuing PSP eqs while on sale and those of you who are familiar with PSP plugins perhaps know that these Polish gyus are true geniuses. The battle of GAS and reason inside me resulted with question: Is there really anything other EQ plugins can do that our Quad Curve can't ?

QC's 4 bands, Q range + HPass & LPass, beatiful GUI, seems perfectly enough for any task. Are you aware of any EQ plugin which job could not be done with QC ( or QC/Sonitus/team). I guess EQ is only supposed to cut or boost, if its coloring the sound then that's filtering or distortion, not eq'ing.

So what would make you to look into other eq ? Wider Q range ? More bands ? Precision of freq knobs? GUI ?

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#1
scook
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/03 10:18:30 (permalink)
Here are a few ideas: Mid/Side processing, separate Left and Right processing, pre and post curve analysis
But the biggest in the case of QuadCurve EQ is when I need more than one EQ on the track
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Afrodrum
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/03 10:33:00 (permalink)
Mid/Side is a good point. Very interesting when would you need to one eq followed by the another (same) eq, and can you achieve the results you want with Sonitus following QC eq or vice versa ?

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#3
Anderton
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/03 10:40:11 (permalink)
Disclaimer: I'm not into a wine-tasting mentality with compressors, EQs, etc. I don't need an emulation of the legendary EQ from a legendary mixer that was used in some legendary studio to record a legendary piece of music; what I need is something that will cut and boost at frequencies of my choice in different ways 
 
That said, you might find this article interesting, as it describes how to use noise to evaluate the QuadCurve EQ (as well as other EQs). One of the QC's limitations is that it's not phase-linear, but SONAR has a phase-linear EQ so you're covered. For an interesting test, set up the Sonitus and LP-64 EQs to the same high-frequency boost settings, then switch between them on something like ride cymbals...you'll hear a difference.
 
For me, the main limitation of the QC is the number of bands. Four bands isn't really enough for mastering, although it's a toss-up whether you want to use the QC or the LP-64 for mastering anyway. I do like the Hybrid mode when there's program material with resonances that need to be but also needs gentle boosts; the "Pultec-like" Pure mode is great for general tone-shaping. So when I do use the QC for mastering, I usually feed into a bus so I can get two QCs in series and end up with 8 stages.
 
The other limitation is the spectrum analyzer. It's a welcome addition, but doesn't allow for averaging, hold, etc. 
 
But as a general-purpose, highly versatile EQ, the QC is tough to beat. I think some people who have a strong preference for a particular EQ might not be aware of the effect of the different QC curves, so they choose an EQ that defaults to a curve they like. Its's really important to become intimately familiar with how the QC curves affect sound so you can use the right curve for the right job.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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scook
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/03 10:46:32 (permalink)
Afrodrum
Very interesting when would you need to one eq followed by the another (same) eq, and can you achieve the results you want with Sonitus following QC eq or vice versa ?

Yes, there are quite a few EQs bundled wit SONAR and any of them could work when more than one EQ is needed. However, the QuadCurve is the only PC EQ bundled with SONAR. A typical application would be before and after compression.
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Afrodrum
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/03 11:10:00 (permalink)
Craig thanks, I read the week 59 article before. I understand that your answer is that eq curves is the principal reason why you would look into other eqs. I suppose the eq curve shapes is separate field of science available to most experienced ears only :-)

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#6
Afrodrum
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/03 11:15:33 (permalink)
scook
A typical application would be before and after compression.


Of course, thanks, I was aware of this technique bur never used eqs that way myself.

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jackson white
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/03 11:48:30 (permalink)
+1 for more bands. 8 total might be good enough, but not discounting the impact it might have on the UI controls. 
 
+1 for >1 instance in PC. Would be more than OK with just 2.
 
Might be useful to save "EQ only presets" instead of full PC presets. This could apply to other CW PC modules.

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jackson white
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/03 12:25:11 (permalink)
A persistent view that tracks active track/bus selection.
 
I would find this to be a productivity improvement when starting surgery on a complex mix. I'd be OK with a Multidock only implementation. 
 

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Vilovilo
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/03 12:35:00 (permalink)
Hi,
A little bit off topic,but LP64 would be a great tool if it had a spectrum visualizer .
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Anderton
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/03 14:45:12 (permalink)
jackson white
A persistent view that tracks active track/bus selection.



Wouldn't that be the Inspector?

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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twelvetone
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/03 19:22:24 (permalink)
QuadCurve EQ Demystified
http://blog.cakewalk.com/quadcurve-eq-demystified/
 
But why is it mystified in the first place?
I have no time for this nonsense. Just name them by what they do.
 
Hybrid and Pure, OK, I guess I can easily see the difference.
 
But
 
E-type? Isn't that a car?
G-type? Isn't that a spot?
post edited by twelvetone - 2015/10/03 19:34:34
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Anderton
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/03 19:31:28 (permalink)
twelvetone
Just tell us what the settings do.



Or better yet, hear what the different settings do.
 
But, this is the complication with emulations of particular consoles like the SSL E and G series. They had a particular character that made them interesting, but doesn't lend itself to easy explanations. In particular, with analog EQs there was always interaction among settings.
 
In general, you have to work backwards from what you need - in other words, analyze what you need from the EQ, then match that with the particular curve. For example - "I have drums where I need to tame the tom resonances with reasonably sharp notches, but also need to give gentle high and low end lifts." The hybrid would (in theory) be useful for that. OTOH if the issue is "I need to do general tone shaping that's nice and broad," the Pure would probably work best.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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twelvetone
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/03 19:36:21 (permalink)
...and whilst we're about it, can someone once and for all explain what the Gloss button does? In normal, technically understandable terms?
 
I can't hear any difference.
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twelvetone
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/03 19:39:55 (permalink)
 
>>Or better yet, hear what the different settings do.
 
That's precisely the point.
 
In this thread ...
 
How Many Here Truly Understand the Difference Among the QuadCurve EQ Types...
http://forum.cakewalk.com/How-Many-Here-Truly-Understand-the-Difference-Among-the-QuadCurve-EQ-Types-m3232088.aspx
 
...so many people responded expressing confusion and that they DON'T hear a difference.
 
>> with analog EQs there was always interaction among settings.
 
Yes, and this means the sound engineer had to readjust the other settings, just because (s)he adjusted this one. Interaction was a shortcoming of the analog electronics. It was not a desirable trait by any means. 
post edited by twelvetone - 2015/10/03 19:54:37
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/04 04:10:07 (permalink)
jackson white
+1 for more bands. 8 total might be good enough, but not discounting the impact it might have on the UI controls. 

 
-1 for more bands. quad curve is like a channel strip EQ on a console, just consider ...
  • how many analog consoles come with more bands per channel?
  • not even new digital consoles come with more than that e.g. top seller X32 comes with LC plus 4 bands per channel (=Bark of Dog plus Quad Curve)
  • more bands would be a nightmare to use with current screen estate and of course would no longer work with existing control surfaces (as their plugins are no longer maintained)
  • when making some sound decisions already while recording (and not deferring everything to the mix phase), you can do a lot with 4 bands ... I know this is old school, but start to believe more and more in that ...
  • there is special EQ for special purposes; a channel strip EQ can't fit every purpose (e.g. mastering, or really precise surgical corrections like notching out digital hum, ...); everyone of us owns at least 5 other EQ plugins and it pays to get to know them really well ....
 
jackson white
+1 for >1 instance in PC. Would be more than OK with just 2.
 
Might be useful to save "EQ only presets" instead of full PC presets. This could apply to other CW PC modules.




that indeed might be good ... although it can be done by dragging any VST EQ onto the pro channel ... and personal experience so far is that if I need several EQs in the chain, they have different purpose and thus end up being different tools ...
post edited by FreeFlyBertl - 2015/10/04 04:20:57

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#16
joel77
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/04 10:19:40 (permalink)

"Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ?"

 
To some users, I would guess, yes it is. But for others, we have and want and like several different EQs. Do we "need" other EQs? Well, there's the question.
 
I use the QC on every mix in one form or another. Mostly for surgical (fine tuning) adjustments. I really appreciate the spectrum analyzer being included. But I use many other EQs as well through out a mix.
 
Afrodrum
QC's 4 bands, Q range + HPass & LPass, beatiful GUI, seems perfectly enough for any task. Are you aware of any EQ plugin which job could not be done with QC ( or QC/Sonitus/team). I guess EQ is only supposed to cut or boost, if its coloring the sound then that's filtering or distortion, not eq'ing.



To my ears, different EQs sound different. Is that filtering or distortion? Is it just different EQ curves that could be emulated in the QC? Perhaps, but I doubt it. I like hardware emulations of different EQs. I like using the EQ section from a Neve 1073 or API 550 on vocals, for instance. Can I recreate that sound with the QC? Maybe, but I'd rather use the "real thing" than spend my time trying to make QC sound like a 1073.
 
Have I spent money on plugins I don't need or don't use? Absolutely!! But not on EQs. Both software and hardware. Same with compressors. Different tools for different jobs and all that ..... 

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David
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/04 10:36:38 (permalink)
QC  is a good eq , I also use others , It is a great eq to be included as a stock eq.
I would us the QC more if we could adjust the the Q with the scroll
wheel on the mouse . yes a pet peeve but work flow is huge :)

David F

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Anderton
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/04 10:45:10 (permalink)
FreeFlyBertl
jackson white
+1 for more bands. 8 total might be good enough, but not discounting the impact it might have on the UI controls. 

 
-1 for more bands. quad curve is like a channel strip EQ on a console, just consider ...



You wouldn't need to have an 8-band EQ, you'd only need to be able to insert another EQ into the ProChannel. Meanwhile, I just send to a bus if I need 8 stages.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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Anderton
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/04 10:52:03 (permalink)
twelvetone
...and whilst we're about it, can someone once and for all explain what the Gloss button does? In normal, technically understandable terms?
 
I can't hear any difference.



You should have been able to hear a difference if you used noise for testing (as described in my Friday's Tip of the Week referenced earlier). The fact that you can't is concerning, because it implies a problem with your hearing in the 8 - 20 kHz range.
 
Here's a screen shot of white noise without and with Gloss. Gloss adds a subtle high-frequency lift that starts around 5 kHz, and becomes most prominent in the 8 to 20 kHz range.
 


The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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tlw
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/04 11:03:30 (permalink)
One thing about the gloss control is that even with perfect hearing you won't hear it doing much, or anything, if the source audio doesn't contain enough of the frequencies it affects.

An electric guitar track that contains very little above 5KHz won't sound much different with or without gloss. Hi-hats and cymbals that do have some energy in the high treble should sound different, but not very different. To me, gloss is a function that can add a bit of "presence" or high-end "air" that brings out things like cymbals or pads. Kind of like a very mild enhancer/exciter only without the negative side-effect of exciters that can make things a bit harsh or tiring to listen to if overdone.

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#21
Anderton
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/04 11:16:52 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby joel77 2015/10/04 14:33:15
twelvetone
 
>>Or better yet, hear what the different settings do.
 
That's precisely the point.
 
In this thread ...
 
How Many Here Truly Understand the Difference Among the QuadCurve EQ Types...
http://forum.cakewalk.com/How-Many-Here-Truly-Understand-the-Difference-Among-the-QuadCurve-EQ-Types-m3232088.aspx
 
...so many people responded expressing confusion and that they DON'T hear a difference.

 
This is the value of the "de-mystified" blog post. For example with the E-Type, the blog explains Q is higher at low boost settings than the same settings with the G-Type. So with low boost settings, you'll hear a significant difference but with higher boost settings, you'll hear no difference (all other settings being equal).
 
twelvetone>> with analog EQs there was always interaction among settings.
 
Yes, and this means the sound engineer had to readjust the other settings, just because (s)he adjusted this one. Interaction was a shortcoming of the analog electronics. It was not a desirable trait by any means. 



From a theoretical standpoint, it's not desirable. However, from a practical standpoint, if an engineer understood how the EQ worked and how the bands interacted, it opened up a wealth of creative possibilities. For example, here the G-type EQ is taking advantage of the interaction between two moderate boosts to create a "plateau" curve which no single band could do. (The same settings with the E-type produce a double peak because the Qs are greater for the same amount fof boost.) 
 

 
Now here's a curve using the "Pure" option to create a steeper pre-boost slope, and a gentler post-boost slope. 
 

 
This is why there's no definitive way to say "this EQ does a particular thing" because each curve is more like a toolkit. It's very helpful that the QC shows the composite results of boosts and cuts as well as the individual boosts and cuts for the bands.
 
Admittedly, this turns what should be simple ("hey, I just want more mids") into something that can become quite complex and require a significant amount of experience to exploit to the fullest. But, that's the double-edged sword of anything that lets you go really deep...
 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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jackson white
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/04 13:17:53 (permalink)
my bad. Meant the "Flyout QC". Just find the larger display easier to work with when rolling. 

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twelvetone
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/04 13:28:16 (permalink)
>>  Gloss adds a subtle high-frequency lift that starts around 5 kHz, and becomes most prominent in the 8 to 20 kHz range.
 
On my Sonar I see a boost of about 1 to 1.5dB.
There must be more to it than that, and it is an explanation of that, in technical terms, that I am trying to discover.
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jackson white
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/04 13:46:19 (permalink)
My current way-of working is exactly as you describe.
 
The QC as is covers most tasks well. Easy enough to insert another EQ in PC/FX bin for a specific task as needed. Realistically, it's mostly just -one- more band that's needed, so hardly a justifiable use case for development. FX bin clutter is also less of an issue with Platinum. 
 
My reference comes from working with BFD which includes an 8 band EQ in their channel FX. An idle thought for improving workflow by minimizing knobs in multiple corners, keep it all in Sonar.
 
Completely agree with getting the tracking right though. Gotta love well engineered tracks that mix themselves but not something I can control for the majority of what ends up on my plate. Seeing a lot of indie DYI, frequently have to ask if that "lofi" sound is really what they want.
 
and ya know, those old consoles did come with patch points ... so only practical limitations apply in the end.
peace
 
 

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Anderton
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/04 14:31:12 (permalink)
twelvetone
>>  Gloss adds a subtle high-frequency lift that starts around 5 kHz, and becomes most prominent in the 8 to 20 kHz range.
 
On my Sonar I see a boost of about 1 to 1.5dB.
There must be more to it than that, and it is an explanation of that, in technical terms, that I am trying to discover.



It really is as simple as it seems: a subtle "lift" in the highest audible octave to add what people call "air." You could use a shelving EQ to do that, but then you'd have to give up a stage.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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Markhaskin
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/24 08:45:52 (permalink)
I would love to see a 'ca73' plugin!
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chilldanny
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/24 11:02:55 (permalink)
Been saying it on here since it was first introduced; Users should be allowed multiple instances of the Quad Curve EQ in a single Pro Channel.  All ProChannel modules should allow this most basic functionality.
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scottfa
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/24 14:39:06 (permalink)
Seems to me that the pro channel itself is the problem. It just looks like an artificial construct for sales purposes. Can someone give me some benefit of using the pro channel over just having the plug ins placed in the fx bin? Keep the plug ins proprietary. Maybe i am missing sonething that would make the obvious work flow issues worthwhile.

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Mackie R800 Adat to the Steinberg
Windows 10 64 bit     
Sonar Platinum Lifetime
UAD-2  Solo
#29
Afrodrum
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Re: Is Quad Curve an ultimate EQ ? 2015/10/24 15:28:56 (permalink)
EQ , Tube and Compressor seems to be the PC effects that can be only used once. All others you may have multiple instances of. The logic behind it is bizarre.
post edited by Afrodrum - 2015/10/24 15:39:39

Windows 10/64, Intel i7 Xeon X6575 3,07GHz, 24Gb RAM, chipset: Intel X58 Express, Kingston SSD 240Gb,  Sonar Platinum , Edirol UA-25.  (Some extra VSTs: PSP almost all/  IK - AT4, ST3, / AAS - all/ TH3 full/ +10dB/ Melodyne Editor). EVE sc205 monitors, Defil Kosmos guitar, blue lava lamp, ashtray.  And there is some great music you may find at: https://soundcloud.com/pawel-jan-1
 
 
 
 
#30
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