LordRavenWolfe
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Is There An Easier Way To Keep Timing Than Metronome?
Granted, I don't read music and I play by ear and so most of the time my timing is fairly close if not spot on. However, sometimes, when recording my own music I find myself speeding up. I would use the metronome but honestly it is just a distraction to my ears as my mind is constantly thinking about what notes are coming up next on the piano, etc etc.
I used to have a keyboard some years ago (it was a full scale yamaha) and it had this nice little function where I could enter a time measure, say 4/4, and I could play as fast or slow as I wanted, and it automatically chopped the music to where only the amount of notes allowed in a beat would be within a certain measure. So I could speed up or slow down and it basically autocorrected the issue.
Does Sonar Cakewalk have anything such as this? I'm still new to this and can't even fully figure out how to use loops, etc, so I'm a bit of a dunce when it comes to this software. (Sometimes I miss Logic Pro, but I no longer have a macbook :( )... any help or advice for keeping time without a dreaded metronome would be greatly appreciated. I would do a foot tap but when playing piano and having to use the foot pedals, that gets to be a little confusing. :D
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bitman
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Re: Is There An Easier Way To Keep Timing Than Metronome?
2015/09/22 22:51:22
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☄ Helpfulby LordRavenWolfe 2015/09/23 13:00:01
This is a syndrome that cannot be solved by technology.
I use a drum pattern so I can hear the hat kick and snare but even that for me is nothing like playing with flesh and blood. I still speed up and slow down and also as you have described listen to the click and think too much resulting in many tries to get a groovy feel playing with a rigid clock. which never quite satisfies.
I wish I had session musicians in cages in my basement I could call upon.
Pass out charts and go ready 1 and a 2 and a.....
That would solve this big issue for me.
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LordRavenWolfe
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Re: Is There An Easier Way To Keep Timing Than Metronome?
2015/09/22 22:55:26
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bitman
This is a syndrome that cannot be solved by technology.
Well, it was partially solved in that keyboard I had. I wish I still had it. This way I could lay out the basic rhythm and then just play over it. But alas, it just doesn't seem to be around anymore. It was really neat. You could take a 4/4 measure and say "I want there to be 20 beats in each measure" and the piano would auto tone that shiz to make sure only 20 notes made it in each measure, etc..... I have that issue, and one other that I am not sure how to address. I shall ask it in another forum, but I'll mention it here as perhaps you may know. I do a LOT of orchestra recording, and it seems that panning doesn't help me much in the way of making the orchestra sound "full" but not "overbearing." Like, If I diminish the sound volume it just sounds loud but not as loud, you know? Not sure how to even explain that one. LOL
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tenfoot
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Re: Is There An Easier Way To Keep Timing Than Metronome?
2015/09/23 00:07:05
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☄ Helpfulby LordRavenWolfe 2015/09/23 12:59:56
Perhaps the keybard that you had did something similar to the Quantize function in Sonar?
post edited by tenfoot - 2015/09/23 00:16:14
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mettelus
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Re: Is There An Easier Way To Keep Timing Than Metronome?
2015/09/23 00:12:31
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☄ Helpfulby joel77 2015/09/23 10:10:52
+1 for quantizing, but honestly forcing yourself to practice to a metronome is a better habit. It is similar to learning tones via exposure in that timing consistency can also be ingrained this way.
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: Is There An Easier Way To Keep Timing Than Metronome?
2015/09/23 01:23:19
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☄ Helpfulby LordRavenWolfe 2015/09/23 12:59:51
I assume SONAR still has the input quantize function - or...? That would perhaps solve a part of the problem.
Then again, with any kind of quantizing you must play fairly close to the correct tempo to avoid
undesired jumps to wrong direction.
Of course, you can also play to your desired varying tempo and then create a tempo map, but that
means quite a lot of extra work and tweaking.
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Resonant Serpent
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Re: Is There An Easier Way To Keep Timing Than Metronome?
2015/09/23 02:49:35
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☄ Helpfulby bronsoncox 2015/09/23 11:00:40
A deep chesty bawl echoes from rimrock to rimrock, rolls down the mountain, and fades into the far blackness of the night. It is an outburst of wild defiant sorrow, and of contempt for all the adversities of the world. - Aldo Leopold
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Cactus Music
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Re: Is There An Easier Way To Keep Timing Than Metronome?
2015/09/23 10:57:00
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☄ Helpfulby LordRavenWolfe 2015/09/23 12:58:54
Some music needs to speed up and slow down. If the music you are trying to record is Solo Piano type then ya, a metronome will not work. If you trying to record a pop tune, however, then use a drum pattern instead of the metronome. I find it gives you a better feel for a song.
post edited by Cactus Music - 2015/09/23 20:56:45
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brundlefly
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Re: Is There An Easier Way To Keep Timing Than Metronome?
2015/09/23 11:48:26
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☄ Helpfulby LordRavenWolfe 2015/09/23 12:58:51
I've almost stopped using the metronome when recording MIDI. I record freely, and then use Set Measure/Beat At Now to align the timeline to the performance after the fact. At that point, I can quantize as needed and soften the tempo variations or completely remove them. If the piece is going to remain solo piano, I usually leave some or all of the natural tempo variation in place, and only completely "flatten" it if I'm going to record more parts, using the piano part (or sometimes a drum or bass riff) as the timing reference.
I can play pretty well to a metronome, but the tendency to alternately rush/drag to stay right on top of the downbeat can mess with "intra-measure" timing, and I'm more prone to suffer from red-light anxiety and have a big hiccup in the middle of a performance when using the 'nome.
When I do use the metronome, it helps to have the click tempo really well-matched to the tempo at which I would naturally play without a click. For that, I use this technique:
- Disable Stop at Project End in Track View Options if it isn't already so the transport will run in an empty project.
- Start playback with no click sounding, count off a couple-few measures in your head, and stop the transport on the next downbeat.
- Shift+M to open Set Measure/Beat At Now, and enter that measure and beat.
- SONAR will set the tempo to make the specified beat fall on the absolute Now time where you stopped the transport.
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LordRavenWolfe
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Re: Is There An Easier Way To Keep Timing Than Metronome?
2015/09/23 12:50:02
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Well, it's hard to explain. I like all of these suggestions and now I have to grab a sonar walkthrough and learn how to use this thing. (I got this program second hand and it didn't come with anything but the serial number the guy had written on the box. No manuals, etc...) To give you an idea of what I mean, here's a link to one of the short pieces I did. Everything is fine until I stop playing piano and go all orchestra, then I find I got ahead of myself and wound up playing faster, as evidenced when the piano comes back in and I had to fade out the orchestra and basically end the song because of the missed step timing. https://soundcloud.com/mi...low-walk-into-darkness
post edited by LordRavenWolfe - 2015/09/23 13:04:18
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Cactus Music
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Re: Is There An Easier Way To Keep Timing Than Metronome?
2015/09/23 20:58:08
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2015/09/23 21:30:10
Avast me harties....Oh well. just so you know, it is against the rules to sell or use a second hand copy.. you might want to think about becoming legit, you can get your hands on Artist by the month for less than the price of a pizza. Or if you by some Roland gear and now TAscam stuff you'll get a free copy of Sonar LE,, use that to upgrade for real cheap...
The help files are hugly available to all. If you have an older version they are right there in the menu. The new versions they are on line. At the top of this forum you can
Open Cakewalk- Support - Knowledge Base.
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LordRavenWolfe
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Re: Is There An Easier Way To Keep Timing Than Metronome?
2015/09/23 21:29:19
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Cactus Music
Avast me harties....Oh well. just so you know, it is against the rules to sell or use a second hand copy.. Really? I was unaware of that, as people sell this, and logic, and everything else on ebay without repercussion. Way I look at it, at least I paid something for it as opposed to outright stealing it from a torrent, etc.... I would LOVE to have bought the full on edition in a box, brand new; but when you are jobless, even twenty dollars becomes an issue. (believe me, I find myself picking up pennies and stuff on the sidewalk because it can go towards gas, etc)... if I ever have the chance I'll be more than happy to buy a full on copy straight from Sonar, but for now, what I have will have to do. Although I think I actually had a lite version of one of the cakewalk programs that came with my Alesis soundboard or something like that. I honestly can't remember. But I'll still check out the help documents, etc, and do what I can, and Lord willing I'll have a job again soon and can go back to what I know and love!
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Bassman002
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Re: Is There An Easier Way To Keep Timing Than Metronome?
2015/09/24 03:08:36
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HI:)
Most Musicians have big Problems playing to a metronom, cause they did not practise with metronome, so I often take a Drum Groove and for them it's much better to stay in time.
For me I often do Midi Recording Half Time, so it grooves more....
Bassman.
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Afrodrum
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Re: Is There An Easier Way To Keep Timing Than Metronome?
2015/09/24 14:52:24
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If you are subconciously speeding perhaps that is what your song needs. I have found out (dead serious, no kidding) that two or three glasses of wine make my timing a lot more tighter.
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tlw
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Re: Is There An Easier Way To Keep Timing Than Metronome?
2015/09/24 15:33:30
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What I usually do is work something out on guitar, synth, whatever and get my foot tapping to it.
I then record four bars of one note/chord per beat, with the metronome off and leaving Sonar set at the default 120 bpm. I then use the loop editor functions to tell me what the tempo I recorded at was or if it's MIDI check the number of milliseconds between notes and calculate the bpm. I'll then set up a bare-bones kick and snare/hats track and use that as the click rather than the metronome. I find the typical "ping click click click" of most metronomes doesn't work for me because I nearly always end up playing against "click click click ping". Too many years of playing and listening to music that relies on a strong backbeat I guess.
If I start with a sequence then I'll take a guess at the kind of tempo that'll work, set up the sequence in the DAW or hardware then adjust the tempo till it feels right.
Sometimes a very small change in tempo, e.g. 90 to 92 or 130 to 135 can make a huge difference in "feel'. Sometimes a slight tempo change is all that's needed to make a part that was hard to keep in time all of a sudden just work. As can shifting e.g. some of the hi-hat timings so they're a few milliseconds early or late and pull or push the groove.
The danger with functions like your Yamaha keyboard had is that if you come to rely on them you never learn to play in time....
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RexRed
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Re: Is There An Easier Way To Keep Timing Than Metronome?
2015/09/24 19:00:08
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A musician must learn to play to a steady rock solid beat.. (how else will everybody keep together?) I insert a drum synth then add bass snare bass snare to the first four beats then groove clip it and stretch it out (then freeze it). Metronome practice should be undertaken at the age of 12 or younger :) Keep an eye out for those tricky and rare 3/4 time waltz' :) http://rexred.com
post edited by RexRed - 2015/09/24 19:16:46
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kevinwal
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Re: Is There An Easier Way To Keep Timing Than Metronome?
2015/09/27 01:45:46
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I don't have much right to be telling others how to play but I do practice with a metronome and have for several years now, so while I have a bunch of issues with my guitar playing, recording to the metronome in Sonar isn't one of them. Do yourself a favor and work with one every day for a month. I'd be shocked if this didn't become much less of a problem for you.
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