Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it?

Hey Bob.
Sounds as though you are having some fun there:)
In digital recording you should never push anything into clipping - ever. There are ways to get that fat, saturated, distorted sound that your fans like that will sound much better. I am sure some of the folks here will have some ideas - your genre of music is not really my area.
 
Bruce.
 

Are they listening to the songs volume matched

To answer the original question, yes, the pros sometimes do use clippers to squeeze every last dB of volume out of a mix. Most would prefer not to, if it was up to them.
 
Bear in mind that the volume-war trend is reversing. Pushing your volume to the absolute max will likely make your productions sound dated in a few years, like diving sinewave toms and gated-reverb snares from the 80's.

Hi. The "loudness war" is hopefully coming to an end.
The (perceived) loudness (I believe) is more of a pause in sound, than a consistent sound.
The loudest songs I have ever heard, has been the ones with the biggest (volume) range. It all depends on the volume knob... 

Waves L-316! It will squash it to death! LOL  Sometimes waves will put it on sale. L-2 is also really good. I don't like L3  much.  Any Voxengo plugins are real bargains!  Dave Brown has a nice limiter too.  Sony Oxford Limiter is ok but I think its a little over priced.  I like Fabfilter stuff too they make Pro-L that is a very popular "Mastering" type limiter.
 

+1... great stuff here... thanks all
 

BOOST11 I mean!
 

When you say clipping..  what exactly do you mean?
 
There's good ol' analogue clipping where the peak tries to go higher than the power supply will allow and rounds off.
Or tube clipping where the peak saturates the plates and rounds off.
Digital clipping where you hit the biggest number and the peak squares off (or worse, wraps around to 0 and starts again)
Then there's limiters, where the peaks are artificially clipped, but it's still clipping all the same and is distortion just like any other clipping.
 
If you're trying to raise "loudness" by simply hitting a limiter hard the clipping (distortion) will create high harmonics (sparkle/presence/air) which for the right genre of music could be a good thing...  and thus why your test audience prefers it over the quieter version.

Beware of such, the right combination of clipping and power can blow a nice set of speakers.

If I see any lights go red, I fix them.

Pro channel, channel meters, bus meters. Anywhere.

crunchy mixes.
 

bobernaut
 
What else? All this talk of limiters and using the correct one. I have tried some of them and have landed on Boost 11 as my main one to go to. Is this acceptable in your opinion? It seems to get the better results for what I am doing but I am far from a "limiter" expert. And how does a "brickwall limiter" differ from Boost 11 anyway? Do I need to use both of them or just one? Please answer if you know because I don't.

 
Hi Bob,
 
The right limiter, is the one that works for you and gives you the results you are looking for. To me, Boost 11 is one I don't care for at all. It's just too dirty and gets there way too fast with artifacts. In my opinion the Concrete Limiter that comes with Sonar obliterates Boost 11. The Blue Tubes Limiter is nice too. My favorite limiters (for what it's worth) are The Concrete in Sonar, Waves L1. L2, L3/LL series (which can get a little dirty if you are not careful, but not in a non-musical way....great for hard rock and metal) and the Rolls Royce of limiters, the PSP Xenon which is super transparent and great for most types of music.
 
No, you don't need both a brick and a conventional limiter. The brick wall limiter has an infinity ratio as well as a look-ahead feature so it analyzes as it processes. Conventional limiters sort of let things through and are more forgiving without some of the bells and whistles a brick wall limiter has. The brick wall is just what it implies....your sound hitting a brick wall where it is limited to whatever you set it to. In a nutshell, the brick wall packages things up super tight and makes them loud. The downside there is, if you don't use it right, it will ruin a mix faster than you can say....say. LOL!
 

bobernaut
 
I have recently, due to this post, switched on the waveform preview on the master. It shows 2 fat, even lines so I am guessing that this is what I am after. There are no spikes at all.  Thanks Danny D for this. And while I am at it, I can't thank you enough sir for helping me. I know you don't need to do anything for us at all since you are a working professional in the business. I think it is a great statement that you would take the time out of your life to help. I don't know what caused you to do it, but thanks so much. I took every single thing you said as gold. I know exactly what you mean by that thing you said about Halloween and I get it completely and will work towards your advice. So, your advice, as well as others, is to simply say "NO" like Neo did in the Matrix movie, when it comes to cooking the master to compete with the Slipknots of the business? I believe you but it is a massive leap of faith to do this and risk not being as loud as the current standard.
Thank you all so much for your help and I am sorry that I couldn't mention all of you by name. I will now return to the workstation and put some of this into practice. I will be back if this thread still has any momentum (I hope so!)  seeking more wisdom from you all. Thank you for taking your precious time to help and I will talk to you all again soon I hope!
 
Thanks,
 
bob

That "2 fat, even lines" scares me. Can you post a screen shot of that for me? I'm not so sure you're seeing what you should be seeing. Every song has spikes. They are not always bad, so don't let what you see dictate what you do to try and remedy something. Spikes represent different attributes in music, they can be tension points, they can be dynamic hills and valleys within your music too. The object is for us to control them, not totally remove them as the peaks also contain "energy."
 
For example, if THIS is what you see, you'd be about right. Notice the blue-ish wave form on my master bus. That is what the entire song would look like if I exported the audio. (To see it better, click here https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4909348/X2%201.JPG )
 

 
If you are seeing anything that resembles this out of your master bus in waveform preview: (Click here to see it closer https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4909348/StAngerWaveform.JPG )
 

 
You are in Metallica territory and WAY too hot. You want a few natural little peaks. See how that looks like a square box? That's so loud it just never breathes nor does it sound very good.
 
Now, you can push things loud....but you have to look at RMS too. That Metallica stuff was like -4  or -3 Max RMS....which is insanity. Then you have your average RMS....which is where the song is averaged out. They were like a consistent -4 or something...which is just wrong. LOL!
 
Now here's a shot of one of MY loud masters on a little instrumental I did.(Click here to see it better https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4909348/DannyCjam.JPG )
 

 
The purpose of the song was me testing out some stuff I do in my beta work. I also wanted to try and get this song loud but still wanted to keep sanity as well as dynamics.
 
My song is at -7dB RMS and averages -12 dB RMS. It's still loud and proud, but is not as loud as commercial mixes nor is it squashed and horrible sounding. Notice it is NOT square boxing? It has its peaks and valleys but also looks like a nice wave form in my opinion. It's a hard rock/metal instrumental...so there are certain things I felt were good for the song. For a different style of music, I'd approach it differently. But this is plenty loud hitting -0.3 peak.
 
You're welcome on the help thing. I've been haunting this place for a long time. I love to try and help people as well as make a difference when I can. Quite a few guys are professionals on here that help out. The "pro" title just means "we run a tight ship, deliver what we promise on time and do our best to never let anyone down." :)
 
But seriously, I love this stuff as well as helping out when I can. I just get a bit too intense and involved, which is my downfall. I see so many people being lead astray all the time, I feel the need to step in. It's too easy to take 10 steps back in this field, man. The majority of people that try to help on sites really do have the best of intentions yet there are just as many people that try to make it harder than it really is, ya know? Ever read something from someone that makes you read it 5 times and yet you still don't get it?
 
That's the type of thing I try to save people from. It's not rocket science, nor should it be taught that way. Half the guys that talk that way usually never show their work or when they do, it's not something you want to borrow from because it's not very good. I can't tell you how many times I see that. I just try to cut some of that out of the way without confusing the heck out of people. What can I say......I'm opinionated, I'm stuck in my ways, I tell it how I live it, I have no degree nor do I have a Grammy. LOL! But for some odd reason, I seem to keep on getting business. I chalk it up as "God loves me". So I just thank Him and continue on. :) Best of luck!
 
-Danny

Hey Bob,
 
Wow, not sure where to start on this one. Thank you for the kind words...and you're welcome.
 
Some last thoughts on loudness: No you don't have to supply any pics. I was just concerned when you said "two straight lines". That to me could have meant:
 
a) You may not be sending your tracks to a master bus and it's just showing two, no signal lines. (you can have a master bus and not have your tracks routed to it. Enabling wave form preview would give you two straight lines in this scenario)
 
b) you're square boxing/rectangling from being too loud (is that a word? It is now darn it! LOL)
 
I have personally always looked at it like driving a car. Drive it as fast as you can control it. Some speeders really can't drive at high speed. Though none of us should speed, most people drive in a straight line and don't do well with braking or turning. Therefore, they shouldn't even think of speeding because they may hurt an innocent person.
 
Like driving under control, loudness can be loud...as long as you don't degrade the quality and keep it under control. I have a CD produced by David Rosenthal (Rainbow/music director for Billy Joel who also tours with him) in the 90's with a band called Red Dawn. The singer Larry Baud and I go back a long way. We used to play together and he too is from NJ in a town about 15 minutes from me. Anyway....
 
This CD is one of the best rock/metal CD's I own. Another thing about it....it's one of the loudest CD's I own. It clips on everything I play it on...BUT...I never physically hear clipping. So in a situation like that, if you feel like making something super loud....make sure it still sounds good. This CD maintains quality to me and still has dynamics. I don't know how they did it or what went on to get it that way. When I asked Larry, he said he just recorded his tracks and David did everything else. So whatever they did....I'd probably have to try and get a hold of David to find out...which now that I think of it, may not be a bad idea if it's even possible. LOL!
 
At any rate, mix as loud as you feel the need to mix or master. Just keep your quality in mind and make sure you don't have pumping or breathing due to limiter/compressor over-use....and make sure when something is supposed to be dynamic and more quiet, that it remains that way. I still like that you are choosing to ignore the square box advice from others. BUT...as much as it pains me to say this, there are *some* forms of music that can get away with clipping and even bad fidelity. Some guys just like that sound. I have a punk band I'm working with that wants that sound. So....I have to keep them happy.
 
However, their music doesn't sound ruined. It sounds loud, aggressive, and a little dirty because of their style....not because I am using a limiter to kill them. They aren't trying to enter a loudness war...they are working on an identity...which to me, is a little different. We're not entering Metallica waters....so we're loud, but we're not hideous. :)
 
On the numbers thing: Again, go by what you hear, not what you see. Most sane albums today or classic rock albums being rte-mastered average from -11dB RMS to about -16dB RMS. They may peak at -10 or -9 dB RMS. It all depends on what they decide. I say use your ears. I do what I do...and look at the numbers to see how I did. I never go for anything specifically. I know how far my limiters can go and I try not to push them. For certain styles of music, I go lower...for others, louder. But the only times numbers make me decide things are:
 
1. Some clients for TV or radio ask for specific things. You have to be on for stuff like that due to the processing that goes on AFTER you do your thing.
 
2. I do check for clipping, DC offsets and anything that may look weird. That said, I try not to act on anything that looks weird (other than a possibly clipped sample...which is usually a harmless transient...but it's a warning sign to be concerned with that I usually fix just in case) unless it SOUNDS weird. For example, DC offsets (when extreme) are not good to have. I remove them during processing. After they are removed at the finalization stage, there may be a DC offset of .001% on one side. 1/1000 of a percent is nothing to worry about. So I leave it. The less processing, the better.
 
3. I like to get both of my channels in the wave form reading the same -0.3 final output at all times without normalizing. If it doesn't read that, I look into why. But again....if it sounds good...leave it unless you notice a major left/right volume offset.
 
The numbers, like eq analyzers, are just guides. It's rare for me to act on something I see over something I hear unless it's the 3 things I mentioned above. Same with analyzers, I don't look at an analyzer unless I need to. When I need to, there's a reason...which I will probably attempt to fix something based on what I *see*. The same for "numbers". Don't let them rule what you hear. I used to have a list of numbers that I wanted to achieve because of Bob Ludwig and his consistency. I gave up on them because....I'm not Bob Ludwig and those numbers are hard to get unless you know how he is getting them and have the same gear. Use the ears man....they are the best tool you have.
 
Boost 11: Yeah it's just not a very good final limiter for me....or the stuff that I do. It gets dirty faster than it gets loud and consistent. It works, I just don't like it. Yeah the PSP is pricey...but you don't need it. The concrete limiter in Sonar is good enough in my opinion. I use it for all my pre-production stuff and it works just fine.
 
Insight about me: You're too kind man....thanks so much and I'm glad to have helped you! I wish everyone would take me that way. One of the worst feelings is to be taken wrong. I've not written a book as I don't think anyone would be interested, but I have archived quite a few articles on my own forum that you are welcome to read for the price of....signing up for the forum. Totally free...you just can't see it all until you sign up. :) Quite a few goodies taken from posts I've done all over the net.
 
As far as the mentor thing, if I see you post something on here....I'll do my best to try and help you. If you become a student of mine via "services" part of that package is you get me for life to analyze and help you with your material. It's hard to dedicate the time some people need for free. Trust me, if I had that time Bob, I'd do it. I've done it in the past. But one of the things that hurts is...it was too easy for people to take advantage of and I'm actually a sincere soul (until someone decides to be a Richard Cranium) that has feelings. I'm busy running two studios, I do consultations, recording lessons, mastering, video stuff....it's just hard to do anything without blocking someone time for a price. Every 30 minutes, costs money. I'm all about a schedule that I have to handle or I'm working at Booger King.
 
You have to own a business like this to understand it. It's not just about money....it's about survival in a time where I'm lucky to be able to have income from this. I worked hard to build it up like it is and it's paying off thank God. So I have to be careful. I have people that book with me a year in advance for some things. There is always something happening...so I have to control the time as well as be more selective in who I help. I've been hurt a few times too....and once you get hurt, you don't even want to come on a forum and help anyone. The downside there is....me staying away affects the people that DO like what I have to say. So I try to hang around here and there. :)
 
Nah, it doesn't take me long to post these novels. Thankfully, I type like a lunatic and can do about 75 words per minute or more. It sounds like a machine gun over here. LOL! :)
 
Anyway, thanks again for the kind words and the conversation. Good luck with what you're doing and I'll be looking out for your posts when possible. :)
 
-Danny

Haha yeah, I'm a proud child of the 80's. Thanks for the kind words.
 
It's all good, Bob. I dig helping people. This stuff isn't, and doesn't have to be delivered as rocket science. It's way easier than some will lead you to believe. With the right listening environment, good tracking and proper instrument choices, you're 80% there in my opinion. But really, helping makes me feel good. I guess a lot of it is due to a prayer I said years ago that opened my eyes as well. Quick story for you...
 
I was always in need of help and info. I remember waiting for the chance to talk to my guitar hero's that lived near me or pick the brain of a production guy. Just a moment of their time....just a hand shake or a few questions. No one ever helped me. I got the same old "you just gotta keep practicing, kid" or "save up and buy a Marshall". No one ever told me about the effects they ran through that Marshall to make it sound that good. No one ever told me WHAT to practice to get good. No one spoke about the little things that made the HUGEST differences. It was like everyone wanted to keep secrets....and to be honest, it sucked. So I did the work and all the experimentation, spent money I didn't have....wasted money....but I figured out a lot of cool things.
 
One day, I said a prayer to God. I said "God, if I ever make something of myself to where people will respect my opinion or what I do, I promise to try and help them and won't push them away like what happened to me."
 
A few years later, I started posting info that people found helpful that actually worked for them....and here I am today. I try to give back when I can not just because of the prayer/promise, but because I really want to see people enjoy this field without frustration. I can't tell you how much money I wasted and how frustrated I was at times with EVERYTHING! Music, recording, people, life...you get the idea. At the end of the day man, we're all in this world together. I say we make the best of it as a team. There really are no secrets.
 
Money.....nah it's not totally about money, (though it is important is this day and age) it's more running a tight ship and maintaining business while never letting someone down. The problem is, everything is so time consuming when you don't have enough time in a day. Heck, I can't even play on people's songs for fun anymore....my schedule just doesn't allow it. I never just lay down a track. It takes me an hour or two no matter what I do. In that time....jobs could be done. I have tried to stop working on weekends though. LOL!! The other studio runs but I'm off.
 
When you have a business like this, you have to seize the moments when they come at you. Sometimes you make a killing per week/month...other times you get a little slow and have to live off your savings for 6 weeks or even 6 months. Thank God I've not been in that position in a long time, but I HAVE been there. :( AND...we all know how bad this economy has been for everyone.
 
Books: See, books to me are not really a necessity. It depends on what gets taught and how it gets presented/delivered. I think they lead a lot of people astray due to them teaching you on gear you do not, or will not ever own. The same with some videos from the pro's. They share great recordings most of the time. Let me tell you, when you have a great recording of an instrument, not a lot needs to be done to it. They aren't giving examples of the stuff common folk, hobby guys are dealing with. That to me, makes it much harder. When you see a video of someone that has turned mediocre instruments into something that makes you smile, you follow that guy to the ends of the earth and pick his brain. :) Anything less (or more)....well, you end up with knowledge that may not necessarily work in your situation.
 
It's like, I can show you 1000 different things using MY sounds. What good does that do you for YOUR sounds? A guy mic'ing up an amp vs a guy recording direct will have a totally different set of circumstances. The guy that doesn't understand that we do NOT need loads of bass in a guitar tone is going to use a compressor differently than the guy that "gets it". What I mean is, the more low end you use while not knowing....the more a compressor is going to clamp down.
 
The guy that doesn't realize that a bass guitar isn't supposed to be over-loaded with percussive high end or excessive sub lows, is not going to process the same as the guy that high passes at 60 or 80 Hz or the guy that removes 5k on up on that problematic bass. Sound choice and identification are the keys before you hit the record button. Every situation brings on a different set of options too. Though sound is and always will be subjective, there are good sounds and bad sounds in the recording field. Some you just can't fix no matter how much time you put in. Others are so good, you literally have to degrade them a bit to make them work in a mix of other instruments.....and other just work like magic. That's just the way it goes.
 
Anyway....
 
Thanks for the wishes. We have a lot of irons in the fire for the next record. Some good label interest at the moment (we sold them on the pre-production stuff we have) I just need to get the thing totally done. :) Hard to do when we only get one night per week at 3 hours to work on it. We've been at it since 2010. LOL!! Slowly but surely, we're getting there. Talk at ya later man.
 
-Danny