chuckebaby
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Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
I don't know if im over killing or what.
but I have a song that has 37 tracks (Hard Rock) and it literally took me almost 10 hours to just mix it.
Ironically, this seems to be the norm for me with large projects.
- House cleaning (sorting tracks, naming tracks, exc)
- Listening to each track for mistakes (pops/clicks, exc)
- Fixing Vocals with Melodyne
- Drum stacking
- EQ ing and adding FX, fine tuning those FX
- Automation
- Im sure I forgot something else
Automation seems to be the real time spender. I've found ways to make it easier over the years
but how the "H" can we make any money in this business when im spending 10 hours per song to mix.
Don't get me wrong, im in it for the love. but it is time consuming. Am I alone in this ?
Thanks for any advise or even sharing your experiences.
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batsbrew
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/17 10:11:26
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it takes what it takes.
the longer you mix,
the better you get, the faster you get at making decisions and 'getting there' quicker.
only you know when it's 'there'
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/17 10:20:05
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For a mix it would sound like a lot, but you included clean up, QC & fixing, which can take a lot of time. I try to do most of the cleaning & QC upfront, so when it comes to mixing, mind & ears are worn out by listening to all those individual takes. some ideas that help me get there faster (sometimes at least): - mix only to 90% and leave some of the fine-tuning to the next day on purpose.
- stop tweaking once it sounds good... 100% is enough, 120% doesn't sound better ;-)
- if uncertain, save mix alternatives, use mix recall to export all and A/B the next morning
- sometimes I'm guilty of not resetting the desk and hence, not always start out from a scratch, depends on how much pre-production work was done, but if I like the feel I just continue ...
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Randy P
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/17 10:41:27
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With 37 tracks to clean up and pre tweak in advance of mixing, that can be pretty time intensive. I think it's important to separate that time from the actual mixing. Coming back the next day to do the actual mix is always my preferred method. It's just too easy for me to get paralysis by analysis if I go in with a tired mind and ears. That first listen the next day reveals it in a big way.
http://www.soundclick.com/riprorenband
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bapu
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/17 11:19:26
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Uh OH. I can take 10 days to mix a song. If it only has three tracks. 30+ tracks? See you in a month. 
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jamesg1213
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/17 11:57:08
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10 hours sounds like good going to me, especially if that includes a lot of cleaning up tracks etc.
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Guitarhacker
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/17 13:04:48
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My projects tend to be less than half that size.... and I probably spend 4 hrs or so in the mixing stage. I don't run the clock on what I do so that's just a guess.
I have muted lots of tracks. I try to pare things down to a manageable size. It's really easy to get carried away with multiple tracks for this and that and before long, you have a huge project to mix. When I find myself in this situation, I try to get it down to the essential tracks needed. Mute the rest, and move them out of the way or even delete them from the project.... or do a "save as" to get a leaner project.
But yeah.... if you used all 37 tracks, it's a wonder you didn't take longer.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/17 16:15:26
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Thanks for the reply's fellas.
I appreciate it. I have a whole work flow that I've been doing for years. Maybe its time to "mix" it up (no pun).
I record and mix in separate locations. it's only rare I do an over dub in MY Control Room.
My Control Room is where all my mixing and mastering happens.
Take lane management is done at a separate time. that's something I like to have finished before I start mixing.
Im thinking of adding house keeping to that routine. Along with clean up, Melodyne fixes, exc.
This way when its time to mix, im simply just mixing.
When im doing my own projects, I will track out 12-15 songs and then after a few weeks begin the mix process.
Clients are totally different. All depends on their needs really. anything from 1- 10 songs.
I know 37 tracks might seem like a lot but when you get right down to it, its not.
Not all tracks are always playing at all times, sometimes 3 guitars come in on just a chorus (Each panned L/R + C)
to thicken it up. (typically 10 guitars with 6 graded in frequency) I have found to get a "Thick" guitar sound that grading EQ works wonders. Another 12 drum tracks alone. They add up.
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Randy P
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/17 16:57:32
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I think separating the 2 tasks will really help you. To me, one is a task and the other is more of an artistic endeavor and requires a completely different mindset.
http://www.soundclick.com/riprorenband
The music biz is a cruel and shallow money trench,a plastic hallway where thieves & pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. Hunter S. Thompson
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Larry Jones
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/17 16:59:46
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Speaking only of rock/pop/commercial-type music...
If it's an in-house project and you don't have to pay for studio time and you don't have a deadline, then sure: Why not be certain you've thought of everything, and made the whole piece as good as it can be?
But if you have a client with a budget, or a record company waiting for the master, or you've promised a release date, then you don't have that luxury. You simply have to work to the time frame you're living in.
But you must guard against getting into "fixing" things that aren't broken and "perfecting" things that almost no one will hear. In the genres that I mentioned above (and you mentioned in the OP), what really counts is the quality of the song and the emotion and attitude in the performance (in my opinion), and none of that can be improved by spending more time mixing.
Shorter version: Rock On and Move On!
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bapu
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/17 19:44:48
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Chuck are asking about the time factor on "for hire" mixes?
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JohanSebatianGremlin
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/17 20:10:05
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soens
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/18 04:48:18
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Interesting topic. I'm not making any money... purely hobby for me... but I do a lot of those things as I create the tracks (which could take as long as 20 years) so mixing is mostly adjusting levels and fine tuning effects.
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Slugbaby
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/18 10:15:16
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I wouldn't say it's too much. When I took my last recordings into a studio to have it mixed professionally, from bare Audio WAVs it took 4-6 hours per song (average 24-28 tracks, standard pop music). The engineer is top-notch and has a couple of decades of solid experience. He seems to have a strong, quick workflow, but took time and care to get what I wanted. For my own mixes, which aren't up to the pro level, 10-15 hours is probably my average. I once had a (Canadian A-list, North American B-list) producer/engineer spend 14 hours edit and mix the life out of one 24-track song. It takes what it takes.
post edited by Slugbaby - 2016/11/18 10:42:34
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Slugbaby
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/18 10:46:03
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As an interesting aside, there are stories that when U2 was recording/ mixing The Joshua Tree they spend an insane amount of time trying to get "Where The Streets Have No Name" right. Apparently it got to the point where a tape op walked into the control room just in time to physically stop Brian Eno from erasing the entire tape to force a fresh start!
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AT
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/18 11:17:09
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Working on my own stuff - that ain't a lot of time. It is fun to experiment and learn. For example, I put the a the guitar track on a new song through the Eventide "Black Hole" reverb that I haven't messed with too much. I ended up printing another rhythm track that idea produced with the Freeze button. Time worthwhile.
If I was paying for it I'd be OK with the time if the song turned out right, even if it didn't produce the above track.
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sharke
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/18 17:09:28
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Oh my god I can spend weeks at it. I think my main problem is I don't seem to be able to develop a consistent perception of the material I'm working on. One day it sounds great, the next I'm listening to it thinking Sonar must have screwed my settings up because this sure as hell isn't what I was listening to yesterday. And if God forbid I should ever listen to a problem track when I'm "herbally adjusted" (which is rare), then all of a sudden what I had been hearing as an indistinct mush suddenly sounds like high definition perfection.
I think another factor in my case is that my productions tend to use a lot of unconventional synth sounds which require a fresh approach in each case. Whereas if you're working on more conventional band arrangements you might have more of a "go to" approach because you've mixed those instruments together so many times before. Last night I was trying to mix a horn section with a crazy instance of Native Instruments Rounds synth and I felt like I was rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic :(
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jackson white
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/19 10:56:43
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things that make a difference for me.
> keeper takes/performances
> well engineered tracks
> uncluttered arrangements
> not listening to the demo (or stealing/sorting out the good bits in advance. see first point)
....
fwiw, noting a similar experience with automation in Sonar. There's room for workflow improvement.
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batsbrew
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/19 17:30:13
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i just reached the 10 hour mark on a mix i'm working on right now....
this 'work it out' tune i posted a little while back....
i'll post it soon,
but i'm well over 10 hours on it now.
maybe closer to 16, and i aint done
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Danny Danzi
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/20 14:33:53
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☄ Helpfulby jimfogle 2016/11/21 12:09:45
The things to think about here if you are running a studio to make money are, you have to understand the difference between "mixing", "producing", and "audio editing". Each needs to be treated differently and you deserve to be paid for each one.
It is not my job to produce a song if I've just been asked to mix it. It is not my job to edit all the crap that the last engineer failed to do if a standing project is brought to me....and if you find yourself cleaning up your own projects spending time with slip editing and fixing pops and clicks, you're failing as an engineer.
Melodyne is production. It should have nothing to do with mixing. Specify what services you include with a project you work on. None of the stuff you mentioned is mandatory from a mix engineer. Anyone expecting that from me if I'm just asked to mix will be sadly mistaken. It only walks hand in hand if you allow it.
Now, actual mixing of a project for sound excellence, realistically it should take 4-8 hours. So 10 hours for all the stuff you mentioned is actually pretty good. Then again, I've never heard your stuff so in actuality, I don't know how good the stuff is. That's not meant as a dig, it's just being real. People work on editing and production for days and then mix for 3 hours. Sometimes they do well, other times they totally tank.
Some rules of thumb that I do that you may want to consider taking on board with you.
If you are taking on projects from other studios and cleaning up another man's garbage because he was too lazy or not knowledgeable, doing it for the love is ludicrous. Charge for that. Just think what you could have been doing with that time.
Don't be the producer unless you're asked and paid for it. Mix engineers are just that and should remain in that frame of mind unless other arrangements are made. You'll save yourself a ton of grief, trust me.
And lastly, audio editing, slip editing, cleaning up crap and fixing pops and clicks all over takes time. Again, it's ludicrous to fix another man's project and not be paid for it. Don't assume this responsibility unless you absolutely have to.
And one more little thing....when you record someone, practice proper audio editing as you record. Cross fade every punch when completed, slip edit all clips following the print, and make sure your signal levels are where they need to be. When I record a project, there is never any audio editing needed other than if I am specifically asked to replace drums or work on comped tracks where the person has no business recording, or by request of a record company or producer. When people record here, they get it right or they don't get it at all. If you want comped tracks where I have to glue your performance together, you pay hourly for it. It's not included in the project price. Why should I have to suffer for poor performances?
That said, there are times where we record a vocal line 5 times and combine all the best takes. However, I don't substitute word at a time stuff unless asked. And again, stuff like that, is a manufactured track that they pay for. Drum editing, drum.replacement etc....they pay for that. Seriously bro, why should anyone just include these services due to imperfections or when someone may want to be something they are not? Pay me for audio editing, I'll make you sound like Prince, Mike Portnoy, Geddy Lee or Eddie Van Halen. :)
These are the things you have to ask yourself. I do this for the love too and have helped several people in need when I was able to. However, there are some things in this field that are time consuming and crazy to do. You have to be a good judge as to.when you take on stuff like that. If I did all the stuff you do without charging someone, I'd hate what I do, and would eventually quit or be forced to close my door as I would not be able to meet the needs of my other customers waiting in the wings with bookings. When you have projects that need to be done every day, you learn how to work smarter not harder and you HAVE to have rules like I mentioned or you just won't be able to survive.
Whatever the case, if you are doing all the stuff you mentioned and are happy with your results, I'd say you are ahead of schedule. :)
-Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/21 00:21:44
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☄ Helpfulby jimfogle 2016/11/21 12:10:07
Firstly I would not be too worried about how long a mix takes unless you are charging for it or they have a limited budget then you have to be a little savvy for sure. If it’s for love and enjoyment then some mixes may take 10 hours or more to mix. It may just be the manner of the beast. Don't sweat it so much just spend the time that is needed. When doing it within a budget then I have a plan. Suppose the budget only allowed for 10 hours to mix one song and this is often about right too. I split a total mix into 3 sections. 1 General stuff. (eg 4 Hrs here = 240 minutes = 6.5 mins a track in your case Chuck) Routing, EQ's, dynamics, panning and rough levels eg an overall balance. So lets say 3 1/3 hrs for this eg 200 minutes for this section alone. If you have 37 tracks then that is only about 6 mins per track to get a sound! That will sort you out. The reality is if you cannot get a sound happening in say 6 mins then you may need to practice this a lot more. Note: After many years of mixing I can usually do this first part quite easily. 2 Reverbs delays and effects. (3 Hrs here)
This can take quite a while. If you get ahead with this section then go back and keep on working with section 1. 3 Hours sounds a lot but spend the time getting all the important reverbs happening and sounding sweet. This also may include drum reverbs, snare reverbs and solo parts reverbs 3 Making moves. (3 Hrs here too)
Fine tuning levels and balances. This is all about automation and what moves either you or the computer (or both) is going to do in a mix. As Chuck has pointed out this can swallow up some time. Notice like Danny said this does NOT include a lot of mix prep beforehand such as level checking of every track (if you are sent a multitrack to mix) cleaning up stuff, editing, setting up, grouping and colouring tracks and putting stuff into folders. So if I get a multi that needs all this to be done, I quote on it first and treat it as a separate thing. This mix prep is really important for sure. I was asked to mix a track and offered to be paid well too. I supplied very detailed instructions on what mix prep I wanted done beforehand. But the client had done such a poor job of the mix prep I had to decline in the end and send it back. They needed to do about another 20 hours work on it before they sent it to me! eg there were tons of guitar tracks, all takes, no comping done, a real mess. I had no idea what to use. I should not have to work that out either. If the mix prep is good though this plan can and usually works out for me. It does stop you from spending 5 hours on a kick sound!  You can't do this under pressure. You have got to get it quick and keep on moving on. I have a clock/stopwatch handy too when I am into section one a lot. Many good engineers get it happening within a time frame like this.
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jimfogle
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/21 13:08:23
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I'm just a beginner and do this as a hobby so I'm just learning what it takes to get a good mix. I think there are different expectations when it comes to mixing for fun versus mixing for hire. So here's my inexperienced thoughts.
Mixing for fun is easy, take as long as you want and experiment so you can learn. Use this time to try different workflows, develop templates and find ways to increase your efficiency
Mixing for hire you need to know how you spend your time on a project. How much of your time is spent preparing for the project, setting up the project, importing tracks, naming tracks, grouping tracks, cleaning up tracks and comping tracks? How much of those tasks could have, or should have, been performed by the customer? How much time do you spend setting up effects? Can you use templates that include effect busses to reduce that time? How much time do you spend mixing each track?
Mixing for hire you have to consider both your and your customer's expectations. You need to know what the customer expects you to do and the customer needs to know what tasks your price includes. As others have stated project setup, track cleanup, mixing and production are different tasks that require different mindsets and should be itemized in your bill; even if you quote an inclusive price to the customer. It is important that your customer understands what they are buying with their money.
If a customer is inexperienced the customer may not know what you expect from them so it is up to you to educate your customer about what your requirements are. If you expect tracks to be named, grouped and trimmed those requirements need to be in the quote. Do you want track names like guitar 1 and guitar 2 or strummed acoustic guitar and fingerpicked acoustic guitar.
Many studios have an online presence listing project and track preparation preferences, sample project, downloadable templates and other examples or tools to help the customer save you time.
To answer your question more specifically, yes it is okay to spend 10 hours on a mix if both you and your customer believe the time was well spent.
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vdd
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/24 16:25:42
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I think 10 hours for a 36-track Rock project is quite impressive! From my point of view, mixing guitars is as hard as voice, because - the mix has a great impact to the overall tone of the guitar
- distorted guitars mask a great frequency range from bass to voice and above
- the listener (and the guitarist!) is very biased about how a guitar should sound...
If cleaning up the tracks, fixing stuff etc. is within this 10 hours, it is really fast. OK, some really expensive engineers will do it probably in 3-4 hours, but if there rate is two/three times higher, where is the point from an economic view?
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Danny Danzi
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/24 20:11:23
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vdd
I think 10 hours for a 36-track Rock project is quite impressive!
If cleaning up the tracks, fixing stuff etc. is within this 10 hours, it is really fast. OK, some really expensive engineers will do it probably in 3-4 hours, but if there rate is two/three times higher, where is the point from an economic view?
See that's the thing, the time is good if you don't run a business. 10 hours on one song means you just burned a day on one thing. You mention economics. When you pay real guys to do this, there shouldn't be editing. I don't edit like Chuck mentioned because there is no need. If you have s guy you are paying top dollar he shouldn't have to be fixing anything if his job is the mix engineer. Do it yourself guys, need to practice better recording habits so that editing is limited. Melodyne on an entire track isn't standard procedure. It's custom manipulation. It should never just come with the territory. Again though, even doing this stuff for yourself for your own personal material, cutting out extreme editing and getting the parts right can save major hours. That should leave you with 4-8 hours worth of mixing. 8 hours being the extreme case where you may have encountered a few issues. 8 or more hours other than for extreme cases often means you probably need to tune your listening environment. -Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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mixmkr
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/24 20:22:22
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When I was for hire, I'd tell customers to set aside 25- 50% of the time spent recording to allow for mixing.
I also agree with many points from Danny's post....well actually all. I record as such that clean up afterwards is typically minimal. Clean as you go or work on recording techniques.
Lastly, mainly coming from the days of bouncing tracks, make some decisions as you go along. Record FX...don't be bashful. Nowadays it seems you don't even record guitar tones until it's mix time. How can you expressively play, without knowing how your sound interacts with the other instruments/tracks?
Oh... on the home brew, personal stuff... I mix as I record as I write. Maybe much different from other folks, but when I'm done with the actual recording, the lion's share of mixing is probably already done too. Especially with automation so easy and inserting plugs and FX. The studio has become as much an instrument as anything, so you gotta "play it" too as you progress along.
EDIT...
If you're one of those guys that spends 8 hrs on just getting the snare sound...BOTH while recording and then again when mixing... you've got some short-cuts to learn.
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Danny Danzi
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Re: Is it okay to spend 10 hours to mix 1 song ?
2016/11/24 20:38:15
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mixmkr
Nowadays it seems you don't even record guitar tones until it's mix time. How can you expressively play, without knowing how your sound interacts with the other instruments/tracks?
This here is so true!. You're so spot on with this...great point! It's more of a curse than a blessing sometimes. The more options we have with non-destructive stuff, the more time consuming it can sometimes become. Now you're auditioning guitar sounds for hours. Lol! I do like DI tracks as a safety net, but I do prefer a client coming in with an etched in stone, core guitar tone that gets recorded physically. Again, this is something people have to pay for. When someone comes to the studio unprepared or they wish to record the guitars after auditioning all the sounds in the VST's I have or the tones in my AXE Fx, time is money. I recommend always going in with a plan and try to rehearse the plan before the studio. Just about everyone has a little studio in their house. The practice you do there can save hundreds of dollars and time. :)
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