Thanks for the tips.  I've got it now.
 
Still trying to figure out the nuances of drawing/dragging notes around in the midi view, but I have been able to get some fairly complicated midi drumming done.

rlared
I just found this thread and wanted to add my 2 cents.  
 
I wanted to accomplish something simple today, which is to loop record to a single MIDI track with Addictive Drums and a physical MIDI controller.  All I can say is: What an extremely un-intuitive and negative experience.  All I want to do is loop record to assemble a single MIDI track with the drums.  Instead I ended up with my creativity stopped in its tracks and considering uninstalling SONAR and moving to another DAW.  
 
 
 
I encountered the following problems in an 30-minute long session:
- Sonar created new takes for each pass regardless of what settings I had in preferences
- Undo and redo had unexpected results after I selected 2 takes and "Bounced to Clip".   
- Takes moving themselves unexpectedly between lanes when opening the step sequencer for a take
- A "flattened take" can't be opened in the step sequencer
 
Bakers - PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE spend some time and improve and/or debug the existing MIDI features of SONAR.
 
I really want to be a happy SONAR user since I like the layout in general and I like the ProChannel and ARA integration.  

This is the most mind boggling omission that I have ever seen in Sonar.   There should be some simple way to compose midi data in a loop without the creation of a new take lane on each subsequent pass.  Since this thread was created,  I've been experimenting with other DAWS,  and as far as midi loop recording goes,  I can verify that Studio One 3,  Cubase,  and Tracktion all allow you to pick and choose if you want take lanes on every pass or not.
 

chuckebaby

kb420
This is the most mind boggling omission that I have ever seen in Sonar.   There should be some simple way to compose midi data in a loop without the creation of a new take lane on each subsequent pass.  Since this thread was created,  I've been experimenting with other DAWS,  and as far as midi loop recording goes,  I can verify that Studio One 3,  Cubase,  and Tracktion all allow you to pick and choose if you want take lanes on every pass or not.
 

Just turn lanes off in preferences.
I even posted a video on the previous page.
Judging by your previous take lane rants, im not sure you really care though.

I've seen your video,  but I don't think you really understand what I'm saying.  You can't turn take "lanes off" in Sonar.  If the lanes were truly off,  you wouldn't need to "bounce to clip" like you did in your video.   Here is a video of Studio One 3 and how it handles midi loop recording:  
 
https://youtu.be/T7paoat_dWk?t=2m41s
 
In Studio One 3,  you can record different takes just as you can in Sonar,  but you can also toggle the take lanes off by setting two different record preferences {one is called "Record Mix" instead of "Record Takes",  the other is to uncheck "Record Takes to Layers"}.  You'll notice that there is no need to bounce to clips,  and all of the midi data is automatically merged in to one consolidated clip and all of the midi notes are clearly visible in the clip.
 
 I appreciate your response,  and I sincerely hope my previous rants didn't offend you.  That was not my intent at all.  Before Sonar had comping and take lanes,  Sonar behaved just like this by default.  I would just like the option of going back to that for midi loop recording.
 
 

sharke
 

I totally agree that creating a new clip for each pass, with no option to "overdub" on the same clip, is ridiculous. I came to Sonar after a spell with Pro Tools, which has "MIDI Merge," and was shocked that I couldn't do what seemed like such a fundamental and essential feature for anyone wanting to build up a drum part incrementally on loop. Then someone pointed out that you can just lasso all the clips and bounce them to a single clip. I was marginally happy with this but it still seems like an unnecessary workaround, and the fact that Cakewalk seemed to think that ending up with a bunch of stacked clips would be more popular than overdubbing to one clip really baffled me. 
 
I can't say I'm familiar with your other problems except the fact that some of the drawing tools won't work in controller lanes. In fact I find controller lanes to be so poorly designed and awkward to use that I don't use them unless it's some straightforward editing of velocities. It looks like a feature of the program that hasn't been touched since the early 2000's, in fact a lot of today's Sonar has this kind of uncomfortable clash between modern and ancient (kind of like Quickbooks), which gives the user the impression that he/she is using an outdated program that's had multiple coats of paint slapped on top of it. 
 
A huge proportion of the home producer market these days is budding young EDM/hip hop artists whose music is largely synth and/or sample based. Therefore I think that to compete with the most popular DAW's for this genre, Cakewalk has a lot more work to be done before the program feels as slick as something like Abelton in the whole synth/sampler/MIDI area. Sometimes I feel like I'm fighting against the program instead of being creative and that's not good. 
 

 
Well said.  I understand exactly how you feel,  and I agree 100%.
 

brundlefly
The 'comp clip' in the parent track behaves like a single 'merged' clip, and it's so easy to bounce to clips or flatten comp, I really don't see how this is such a showstopper for anyone. I wouldn't object to having the option, but personally, I would almost never choose to overdub to the same clip; editing and arranging MIDI drums is much easier with different kit pieces in different lanes.
 
Here are a few quick examples of things you can't do with a merged clip:
 
- Slip-edit and then groove clip different parts to start/end/repeat at different intervals.
- Split, copy, cut, paste, drag and mute chunks of individual parts in the track view to build an arrangement.
- Try out different patterns of the same part.
- Have all hi-hat or hand drum articulations kept together but easily isolated from other parts.
- Apply MIDI FX to individual parts as Clip FX.

You said that you would never object to having the option,  but obviously Cakewalk has.   All of those items you mentioned can easily be done in slightly different ways very quickly with any good midi editor.  Don't get me wrong,  I certainly acknowledge the benefits of having take lanes,  especially when it comes to audio recording,  but I just think it's completely unnecessary when it comes to midi loop recording.  Midi editors and midi sequencers have been around for quite some time before the creation of take lanes and comping.   When it comes to programming midi drum sequences,  most of the more modern popular solutions,  namely Maschine,  the Akai Professional MPC line,  and Ableton Push don't use take lanes or comping at all.  Also,  there are plenty of DAWs that have have take lanes and comping,  but it seems as if Sonar is the only one that doesn't give the option of truly turning them off.
 
My frustration with Take Lanes in Sonar is simply how convoluted it is to clean up and consolidate the take lanes when all I really want is one neat and consolidated midi clip.  If you would like to take the time,  I challenge you to do the exact same midi sequence that's done in this video beginning at 2:41 in Sonar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7paoat_dWk
 
He made a very simple drum beat with a kick, snare,  and closed hi hat.  He actually made 6 passes,  and the 6th pass (2nd hi hat pass) overlapped the 5th pass.  
 
If you were to do this in Sonar,  just as he did in Studio One 3,  most likely you ended up with 6 takes.  In your arrangement,  you would only see the midi data of the last take lane,  so you would really only be able to see a clip with a few closed hi hat notes.  The rest of the midi data would be covered,  or concealed by the last take.   Also you would have to comp the high hat takes because the 6th take would have overlapped the 5th take for a few notes.  
 
So,  for you to get a consolidated midi clip,  you would have to comp the last two takes because of the overlapped midi notes,  and then bounce all 6 takes to clips.  Doesn't that seem ridiculous for a simple 2 bar drum loop?  All he had to do in the video was hit record,  play the beat,  and hit stop,  and he's on to the next thing.  Doing this every time you want to record a basic midi clip can be very daunting. 
 
Please understand,  I'm not totally against take lanes,  but I am totally against no having the ability to turn them off.
 
 

The only complaint I think is justified is that you don't see the notes of all clips in the parent track; Bounce to Clip or Flatten Comp takes care of that in pretty short order, and pretty much everything else you described happening in SONAR just isn't accurate.
 
SONAR won't record a clip if no notes are played, so the 6 passes with a 'rest' in between each take will only produce 3 take lanes. If you play extra notes in the 7th pass as he did, it's easy enough to delete the 4th take lane, which I assume you would also have to do in Studio One. But if it were me, I would just avoid playing the extra notes in the first place.
 
And if you're recording in Sound on Sound mode as suggested earlier in this thread, there won't be any 'comping' to do.

Jeff Evans
Once you have that functionality as per Studio One you will never go back.  It can do it either way.  Into one clip or multiple clips.  I do a lot of midi recording and being able to add midi data to just one clip is very good indeed.  As many other DAW's do it too.  In fact Studio One takes it further.  You can set up multiple tracks and switch to them on the fly with the Up/Down arrows and add midi data into any of them.  You get the new sound/instrument the moment you land on that track.  All while in record.  Gapless of course.  Sonar could really improve this situation. 
 

That's my point entirely.  Sonar started out recording everything in to one clip,  and that approach definitely has it's advantages in certain situations,  enough so to justify the ability to at least have it as an option,  even though take lanes have been added to the program.

rlared
Comping mode has its uses.  One of my major frustrations was that Sonar forced me to use comping mode regardless of what settings I put in the preferences.  If I recall correctly, it forced me to create new Take Lanes and to use comping mode.  It seems to only respect the settings for audio and not MIDI. 
 
After that experience, I decided to change my workflow and never try loop recording MIDI again.  I've pretty much completely eliminated using comping with virtual instruments. . . I just record each take to a new track now. :D

If you are going to use Sonar,  you don't have a choice.  I'm glad that you were able to adjust your workflow and it's not really an issue for you anymore.  I still think it should be an option in Sonar,  and I really just don't understand why it isn't.

brundleflyI hope that's optional. What if you want to record a deliberate flam or a grace note.

 
It is optional in Cubase and Studio One 3.   That's the beauty of having options.
 

brundlefly
I don't dispute that 'merge' or 'drum-machine-style' would be convenient for some purposes, workflows, and compositional styles. I just think the necessity of it is overblown, and the many advantages of keeping SoS parts in lanes is being overlooked. I guarantee there are lane- and clip-based procedures that I use routinely to arrange parts that would take significantly longer working in a PRV due to having to constantly re-define selections that aren't already isolated. And I'd rather find out later that I need to take a moment to consolidate separate parts than that I need to separate consolidated parts to use with another synth/channel or that I lost unison notes while recording horn section harmonies.

 
There are advantages,  and I'm not overlooking anything, especially when it comes to audio as I've said before.  I just think there should be an option to chose how you want to work, especially with midi.
 
You think the necessity of it is overblown.  That's your opinion,  and you're certainly entitled to you're opinion.  Obviously,  Cakewalk agrees with your opinion since they don't give you an option at all.  Personally I disagree,  and obviously many of the other DAW makers out there share my opinion because they actually give you a choice of whether you want to use take lanes or not.  

sharke

brundlefly
The 'comp clip' in the parent track behaves like a single 'merged' clip, and it's so easy to bounce to clips or flatten comp, I really don't see how this is such a showstopper for anyone. I wouldn't object to having the option, but personally, I would almost never choose to overdub to the same clip; editing and arranging MIDI drums is much easier with different kit pieces in different lanes.
 
Here are a few quick examples of things you can't do with a merged clip:
 
- Slip-edit and then groove clip different parts to start/end/repeat at different intervals.
- Split, copy, cut, paste, drag and mute chunks of individual parts in the track view to build an arrangement.
- Try out different patterns of the same part.
- Have all hi-hat or hand drum articulations kept together but easily isolated from other parts.
- Apply MIDI FX to individual parts as Clip FX.

I totally get that and indeed there have been instances when I have actually chosen to have different drums in different lanes, however that's just one way of working. I guess it depends on where you came from and perhaps even the genre as well. Many people approach drum programming from a drum machine perspective where you would leave it looping and layer the parts, ending up with everything visible in one clip. Some would say it's just easier and "tidier" to work with and see everything in one clip, and for the most part I agree with them. I guess there's a reason why other DAW's have this functionality, and that's because it's popular. I agree that it's not a showstopper, but it does contribute to a niggling sense of user unfriendliness. 

the video I posted on the previous page (though I know its not what most want) shows me doing just that.
Looping a drum part over and over adding in each kit piece one at a time. I still do the same thing now and then fine tune edit my drum parts in the PRV.
 
All that is need is to select the region after looping/recording is complete and select "Bounce to clips" and it all remains one clip. I don't know maybe im misunderstanding something. At any rate it would be nice to have an option for those who need it, myself I don't but I still understand we all work differently.
 

I hear what you're saying, James, but to address noob confusion, the 'merge; feature would also need to be enabled by default. That would be a non-starter for me.
 
I'm already mildly annoyed that the new Note Chase feature is enabled by default. I have only a select few projects that can really benefit from this, and a lot of my piano-based projects sound funky when playing short snippets while editing. Retriggering MIDI is not the same as restarting playback of recorded/frozen audio.
 
Anyway, no big deal either way on the 'merge' feature. My comment about the necessity being 'overblown' is just a response  to hyperbolic wording like "ridiculous", "essential", "shocked", "baffled". At most I would give this omission "surprising" and "disappointing". 

brundlefly
I hear what you're saying, James, but to address noob confusion, the 'merge; feature would also need to be enabled by default. That would be a non-starter for me.
 
I'm already mildly annoyed that the new Note Chase feature is enabled by default. I have only a select few projects that can really benefit from this, and a lot of my piano-based projects sound funky when playing short snippets while editing. Retriggering MIDI is not the same as restarting playback of recorded/frozen audio.
 
Anyway, no big deal either way on the 'merge' feature. My comment about the necessity being 'overblown' is just a response  to hyperbolic wording like "ridiculous", "essential", "shocked", "baffled". At most I would give this omission "surprising" and "disappointing". 

In Studio One 3 and in Cubase Pro 9,  you have the ability to create templates.  In that template,  you can set the default for how you want to work.  If you want your midi or audio tracks to record with take lanes on,  you can do so.  You can also set it up so that the default is no take lanes at all.  It's really up to you,  but the important thing is,  you do have a choice.  You are able to work in a fashion that you choose.  You're not forced to change your workflow.
 
I've been a Cakewalk user and a member of this forum since 2004.  I've owned a lot of Cakewalk products over the years.  I started out with Kinetic and then Home Studio XL 2004.  Since then I've owned Sonar 4 PE, 5 PE, 6 PE, and 8 PE.  I've also owned the Project 5 1 & 2. None of those products had take lanes or comping.  That's why I found it "ridiculous" that the old workflow has been abandoned.  I think it's "essential" that there be an option to turn take lanes off.  When I first bought Sonar X3, I was "shocked" and "baffled"  that there was no way to turn off take lanes.  Now in 2017,  after owning Sonar Platinum for two years,  I find the fact that you still can't turn take lanes off both "surprising" and "disappointing". 
 

Jeff Evans
Like I said for some this is revelation.  This and other reasons such as excellent timing are the main reasons why I actually left Sonar and went to another DAW.  So for some it can be serious show stopper.  It just depends on your workflow I guess and how important some things are for you in terms of how you might build up midi parts.

 
I agree 100%.  For someone who is in the market for a DAW,  I think it can definitely be a show stopper simply because you don't have the option to work either way.
 

I started with Sonar X1, then Studio One V1, then Sonar X1, then Studio One V1, then Cubase Elements, then Reaper, then Sonar X2, then. . . .
 
Number of times switching DAWs = At least a dozen
 
Years = 5
 
Number of songs actually published from a DAW = 0 
 
Damn I have trouble committing.  It's too much fun playing and learning new toys! 
 
That's why I settled on Sonar Platinum and Komplete 10.  I made a rule, no switching, no more VST's.  Force myself to actually finish songs.  So far it's been pretty helpful. 
 
But it's still soooooooooooooo tempting to jump around.

Yeah between Sonar Platinum, Komplete 10, and having a Korg Kronos. . . I literally have enough to learn for years as-is.  There is absolutely nothing that I can't accomplish with what I have. 
 
I actually consciously decided to not re-install most of the Sonar included synths, Rapture Pro, Hybrid 3, Xpand!2, Z3TA2+, and a bunch of effects that I got for free like the Time and Tone Bundle just because it's too many synths and effects already!
 
Still I am constantly reading Sonar, KVR, Reaper forums. 
 
But honestly, as long as I'm enjoying myself, that's all that matters in the end.  The fun is the journey, right?   (DE NILE, it's not just a river in Egypt baby. . . )