Helpful ReplyIs there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA?

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AudioAnnihilator
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2018/07/05 22:06:59 (permalink)

Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA?

I was just installing the latest BandLab update. What's the catch in the EULA?

1. GRANT OF LICENSE. In consideration of the covenants contained herein, BandLab ("BandLab" or the "Licensor") grants to you, the Licensee, a non-exclusive license to have one person use the Cakewalk by BandLab software product (the "Product") on one personal computer at a time. [...]

OK, that's fair enough ... but, since we're talking about the "Product", moving on:

2. OWNERSHIP OF THE PRODUCT. Portions of the Product incorporate certain material proprietary to third parties. BandLab and licensors of BandLab own and will retain all title, copyright, trademark and other proprietary rights in and to the Product. This License is NOT a sale of the Product or any copy of it. You, the Licensee, obtain only such rights as are provided in this License Agreement. You understand and agree as follows: [...]

Uh ... then we get to chapter 3:

3. INSTRUMENT CONTENT.

3.1. The audio samples, recorded sounds, programs, MIDI patterns used by any instrument (“instrument content”) included with the Product remain the property of Licensor and are licensed, not sold, to you for use on your computer.

OK; so that should apply only to the stuff (i.e. presets, samples, loops, MIDI patterns for the virtual synths etc) that come along with BandLab's Cakewalk; right?
 
10.2. No Waiver. The failure of either party to enforce any rights granted hereunder or to take any action against the other party in the event of any breach hereunder shall not be deemed a waiver by that party as to subsequent enforcement of rights or subsequent actions in the event of future breaches.
 
10.3. Litigation Expenses. If any action is brought by either party to this License Agreement against the other party regarding the subject matter hereof, the prevailing party shall be entitled to recover, in addition to any other relief granted, reasonable attorneys' fees and litigation expenses.

10.4. Unenforceable Terms. Should any term of this License Agreement be declared void or unenforceable by any court of competent jurisdiction, such declaration shall have no effect on the remaining terms hereof.
 
Wow. Now that is some hardcore legalese -- meaning; English legal jargon. I do get it that there's no warranty for the software to work as it should, well, since it's been salvaged from the ashes of old Cakewalk/Gibson Inc., and since it's free, I understand that point perfectly well. But, I'm still a bit confused whether I personally, or my business ( = recording studio ) owns all rights to whatever type of composition has been made as a musical piece by using the BandLab Cakewalk software?
 
These rights management things can be a bit obscure at times, so I'm just asking.
 
Other than that, BandLab's Cakewalk seems to be getting better and better with each update, and I congratulate the whole team on that, having being a SONAR user since version 6/7. Overall, the progress seems to be headed in a good direction: Less CPU use, more stability. I like it. Those are the top two priorities in my opinion to keep the software running and developing properly.
 
Now, only if you could come up with a method to slingshot, i.e. jBridged 32-bit VST's each into their own stabilized, non-CPU-intensive sandboxes for us old geezers still working with old-school audio plugin tools ...
 
Thank you for the software, nonetheless. Cheers!
 
#1
scook
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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/05 22:40:54 (permalink)
Pretty standard stuff. As a SONAR user, you have agreed to very similar EULAs that came with every version of SONAR. The SONAR EULA is the User Guide pdf. Here are links to the X3 User Guide.
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msmcleod
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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/05 22:50:11 (permalink)
It's legal speak for sure, but seems pretty standard to me:
 
Section 2 & 3 basically say you own a license and not the product.
 
10.2 - if BandLab decides not to sue you for breaching part of the agreement, this doesn't mean that that part is then no longer part of the agreement. I think basically it means, just because they let you off once, doesn't mean they'll continue to do so... and this goes both ways, i.e. you choosing to / choosing not to sue BandLab.
 
10.3 - Whoever loses in court, pays the bill.
 
10.4 - Just because a part of the EULA is now no longer valid, doesn't mean the whole EULA is invalid.
 

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IfItMovesFunkIt
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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/06 10:19:07 (permalink)
You read the EULA !
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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/06 14:45:48 (permalink)
Are you concerned that if you make a hit record using some of the canned MIDI sequences or loops, that BandLab might demand royalties? I haven't read the EULA, but most include a clause that covers that.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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tlw
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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/06 15:01:31 (permalink)
msmcleod
10.2 - if BandLab decides not to sue you for breaching part of the agreement, this doesn't mean that that part is then no longer part of the agreement. I think basically it means, just because they let you off once, doesn't mean they'll continue to do so... and this goes both ways, i.e. you choosing to / choosing not to sue BandLab


It’s a common standard clause in a lot of intellectual property licences.

Not only does it mean that if Bandlab let you off once that doesn’t mean they can’t pursue you in the future, it also means that if Bandlab decide not to pursue one person for breaching the licence it doesn’t mean that they surrender the right to pursue someone else if that someone else breaks the licence.

A hypothetical example might be that if Bandlab discover someone has their software running on their bedroom studio PC and their laptop at the same time and decide against taking them to court, that does not mean that if e.g. a major studio is running a hundred copies at the same time Bandlab have lost the right to take action against them.

Equally, if someone somewhere decides not to sue Bandlab for breaching the licence or contract between them and Bandlab that doesn’t mean everyone everywhere loses the right to sue Bandlab.

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AudioAnnihilator
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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/06 15:48:57 (permalink)
bitflipper
Are you concerned that if you make a hit record using some of the canned MIDI sequences or loops, that BandLab might demand royalties? I haven't read the EULA, but most include a clause that covers that.



Well, that was one of my concerns, and the way the EULA would be interpreted; there's always this "grey area" that the particular part of the EULA I mentioned seems to point towards; if you read that part of the EULA almost too prudently, it gives out the impression that even using Cakewalk's own virtual instruments, or i.e. the arpeggiator MIDI loops etc "sound and/or note generators" that come alongside the software would make you, as a "licensee", somehow tangled in a 'legalese' loophole.
 
Either royalties or snooping for a hit track. Or, trying to claim the rights to a production that has been made using the software, since you always were just a "licensee." The free lunch always makes one suspicious. Sorry for being an old dog that barks like this, but that's just the way of the world.
 
... "Guilty until proven innocent, and then you're just really suspicious.", hehe.
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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/06 16:04:14 (permalink)
IfItMovesFunkIt
You read the EULA !



What did I win? No, seriously, a lot of my old-timer IT admin friends have agreed to the notion that we wouldn't be in this half-dystopian copyright mess (that's only getting deeper - well, Windows 10, anyone?), if people would just read the EULA's that they are handed during installation of OS's and software, and on top of that, would just choose to decline if the package looks suspicious/dubious at all. But, that's just the way of the world. "Click next".
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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/06 16:17:29 (permalink)
AudioAnnihilator
3. INSTRUMENT CONTENT.

3.1. The audio samples, recorded sounds, programs, MIDI patterns used by any instrument (“instrument content”) included with the Product remain the property of Licensor and are licensed, not sold, to you for use on your computer.


You get to use the stuff, but you can't sell it. Selling a song that includes particular sounds is not the same as selling the sounds.
 
Some EULAs clarify this by saying you can't use their material in such a way that it could be re-used. In other words, you couldn't put out a "song" consisting solely of SI-Drum hits.
 
True story: A company once put at the end of the EULA that anyone who read this far would get $500. It took over a year for anyone to claim it.
 

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35mm
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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/06 18:11:07 (permalink)
AudioAnnihilator
I was just installing the latest BandLab update. What's the catch in the EULA?

1. GRANT OF LICENSE. In consideration of the covenants contained herein, BandLab ("BandLab" or the "Licensor") grants to you, the Licensee, a non-exclusive license to have one person use the Cakewalk by BandLab software product (the "Product") on one personal computer at a time. [...]

OK, that's fair enough ... but, since we're talking about the "Product", moving on:

2. OWNERSHIP OF THE PRODUCT. Portions of the Product incorporate certain material proprietary to third parties. BandLab and licensors of BandLab own and will retain all title, copyright, trademark and other proprietary rights in and to the Product. This License is NOT a sale of the Product or any copy of it. You, the Licensee, obtain only such rights as are provided in this License Agreement. You understand and agree as follows: [...]

Uh ... then we get to chapter 3:

3. INSTRUMENT CONTENT.

3.1. The audio samples, recorded sounds, programs, MIDI patterns used by any instrument (“instrument content”) included with the Product remain the property of Licensor and are licensed, not sold, to you for use on your computer.

OK; so that should apply only to the stuff (i.e. presets, samples, loops, MIDI patterns for the virtual synths etc) that come along with BandLab's Cakewalk; right?
 
10.2. No Waiver. The failure of either party to enforce any rights granted hereunder or to take any action against the other party in the event of any breach hereunder shall not be deemed a waiver by that party as to subsequent enforcement of rights or subsequent actions in the event of future breaches.
 
10.3. Litigation Expenses. If any action is brought by either party to this License Agreement against the other party regarding the subject matter hereof, the prevailing party shall be entitled to recover, in addition to any other relief granted, reasonable attorneys' fees and litigation expenses.

10.4. Unenforceable Terms. Should any term of this License Agreement be declared void or unenforceable by any court of competent jurisdiction, such declaration shall have no effect on the remaining terms hereof.
 
Wow. Now that is some hardcore legalese -- meaning; English legal jargon. I do get it that there's no warranty for the software to work as it should, well, since it's been salvaged from the ashes of old Cakewalk/Gibson Inc., and since it's free, I understand that point perfectly well. But, I'm still a bit confused whether I personally, or my business ( = recording studio ) owns all rights to whatever type of composition has been made as a musical piece by using the BandLab Cakewalk software?
 
These rights management things can be a bit obscure at times, so I'm just asking.
 
Other than that, BandLab's Cakewalk seems to be getting better and better with each update, and I congratulate the whole team on that, having being a SONAR user since version 6/7. Overall, the progress seems to be headed in a good direction: Less CPU use, more stability. I like it. Those are the top two priorities in my opinion to keep the software running and developing properly.
 
Now, only if you could come up with a method to slingshot, i.e. jBridged 32-bit VST's each into their own stabilized, non-CPU-intensive sandboxes for us old geezers still working with old-school audio plugin tools ...
 
Thank you for the software, nonetheless. Cheers!
 


Of course, you own the rights to any original music you make in the software. Have you signed an agreement handing over your rights to anyone? It would take a signed contract to do that!
 
Their terms are just standard. They protect Bandlab's software and IP and prevent you from getting it for free and selling it on or something stupid. Or downloading the free loops and selling those. How can you possibly think that you are signing away your rights to your own music (without actually signing anything) by using a DAW? That's like Sony saying that they own the rights to all the music you recorded on your tape deck back in the 80's on the bases that the tape deck had their name written on the front of it and not yours. Relax! :)

Splat, Win 10 64bit and all sorts of musical odds and sods collected over the years, but still missing a lot of my old analogue stuff I sold off years ago.
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Paul P
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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/06 18:40:16 (permalink)
35mm
They protect Bandlab's software and IP and prevent you from getting it for free and selling it on or something stupid. Or downloading the free loops and selling those. How can you possibly think that you are signing away your rights to your own music (without actually signing anything) by using a DAW?



Anderton
You get to use the stuff, but you can't sell it. Selling a song that includes particular sounds is not the same as selling the sounds.

 
Extreme case just to illustrate :  Say you create a song with a single free loop and sell it on itunes.
Original song or the resale of a licenced sample ?
 
 

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soens
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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/06 19:20:30 (permalink)
Like the old days when a session musician would come in to the studio, play his part, get paid for that part, and leave. He gets nothing more. He's been paid as per agreement. Same with samples and programs. The vendor was paid for his "part" when you paid for the use of his software. Unless you're using a "student" or "noncommercial" version, they can't hold you to any financial obligation beyond that.
 
EULAs are design to protect the vendors ownership of the intellectual property from being bootlegged.
 
Still, some vendors will try to prevent you from selling any work made with their software.
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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/06 20:49:45 (permalink)
zzzz (sorry)

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AudioAnnihilator
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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/08 12:29:09 (permalink)
Well, I'm glad this legal jargon got cleared up somewhat -- hopefully.

Seriously though, you can never be too sure these days, especially with digital "free lunches".
 
And, often EULA's can contain certain legal loopholes in one direction or another, just like was pointed out by user Paul P.
 
That's like Sony saying that they own the rights to all the music you recorded on your tape deck back in the 80's on the bases that the tape deck had their name written on the front of it and not yours. Relax! :)
 
Oh man, don't get the old geezer ( = me) started on THAT issue, because Sony was one of the strictest copy control enforcers, especially when it came to digital media, i.e. since the dawn of DAT tapes.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Copy_Management_System
 
Those who don't know history are doomed to -- wait ... what was it again? ..... Hmm, what's this button for?
 
Alright, have a nice summertime y'all. Cheers!
 
 
 
#14
bdickens
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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/08 14:04:21 (permalink)
What you should do is familiarize yourself with copyright law so that you are certain of what your rights are.

Not commenting on any specifics, but a company can put whatever they want in their EULA but that doesn't necessarily make it enforceable. Thus the "unenforceable terms" clause.

Byron Dickens
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Anderton
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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/09 17:59:11 (permalink)
Paul P
35mm
They protect Bandlab's software and IP and prevent you from getting it for free and selling it on or something stupid. Or downloading the free loops and selling those. How can you possibly think that you are signing away your rights to your own music (without actually signing anything) by using a DAW?



Anderton
You get to use the stuff, but you can't sell it. Selling a song that includes particular sounds is not the same as selling the sounds.

 
Extreme case just to illustrate :  Say you create a song with a single free loop and sell it on itunes.
Original song or the resale of a licenced sample ?

 
Depends on the EULA. In the example I gave, the company could claim it was a resale of a licensed sample. But I don't think they'd care, and if their legal department pursued it, the CEO would probably fire them for having too much time on their hands.
 
Michael Jackson never pursued people who sampled him because he said they could never sample his soul.

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tlw
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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/09 20:32:37 (permalink)
Anderton
Depends on the EULA. In the example I gave, the company could claim it was a resale of a licensed sample. But I don't think they'd care, and if their legal department pursued it, the CEO would probably fire them for having too much time on their hands.


A court case deciding just how few different samples had to be used in a production before it counted as a resale of the samples outside the user license could run for ever. One sample loop? Two? Three?

And the case would probably cost the company far more than they could gain, especially if they won it. Who’s going to buy samples from a company that says you can use them free of royalties then sues someone for doing exactly that?

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chuckebaby
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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/10 12:25:22 (permalink)
There is a very easy way around this whole thing. Don't use samples that are shipped with software
I have played around with them in the past just for fun but any serious work I have done I have created using my own samples or used VST instruments to create the sounds I want.
 
With that said, I don't know of any developer who has legally gone after its customers for using VST-Instrument samples that have been manipulated by the writer. Loop samples are a different story and I do not know enough about that to give a fair assessment. Thus the reason I never took them serious enough to use in any of my work.

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#18
JonD
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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/11 15:18:12 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby chuckebaby 2018/07/11 16:28:40
chuckebaby
There is a very easy way around this whole thing. Don't use samples that are shipped with software



While I don't use a lot of loops, I know that a lot of people do, and it seems to me it would be suicide for any company to sue their own customer who is using a loop they provided ostensibly as "royalty-free".
 
Of course, if instead it's discovered that the royalty free loop actually wasn't theirs to give away - that it belonged to someone else - well then you have a legal mess on your hands.

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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/12 01:56:53 (permalink)
As stated earlier, if you go over the licenses for other software you use in your studio, you'll find similar language.
 
Really, there is no need to dig for hidden motives on the part of BandLab. They're plain as day. They already have a business model that includes letting people use their tools for free and they just acquired another one that they are letting people use for free.
 
In my guitar amp repair business, I have been using Google Voice for 5 years now as my business phone line. I was able to get 510-747-TUBE, which may be the coolest phone number for a guitar amp repair business ever, if I may humbly say so. It has not cost me a cent. I can text with it, voice mail with (often amusing) voice-to-text translations, all kinds of features.
 
I've written lyrics using Google Docs. Shared rough mixes and stems via Google Drive. GMail. All free. Never paid them a cent. These are all services that offer upsells if I decide that I need greater capacity from them, and many do. So they can easily afford to give me what I get for free while they make a fortune selling other companies the greater capacity.
 
Sometimes people bring me amps that have nothing more wrong with them than dirty input jacks, and I'll shoot a bit of DeOxit in the jack, wiggle the plug around, then shoot the 5hit with them about their band, and send them on their way no charge and very happy that they came to Euthymia Electronics and not some other place. No motive other than creating good will and knowing that it will spread the word that Erik is offering a good product.
 
Just because BandLab are licensing a product without charging for it that other companies used to charge money for doesn't mean they are not already making money from it. Just learning about the existence of BandLab has caused me to talk it up to several people. Multiply that by however many people have downloaded and started using the program and it adds up to some good advertising.
 
In our studios, people who don't understand how we do what we are do trust us that we know what we're doing. Can't we give BandLab the same benefit of the doubt?
 
I'm salivating waiting for them to put out the plug-ins that Cakewalk used to bundle with Platinum and sell separately, and still tantalizingly advertise on the website. The Channel Tools, that fancy L-Phase EQ and Multiband Compressor, some more ProChannel modules, they could make some coin from me in the future with "in-app purchases."
 
I'd love to have a BandLab-developed Dynamic EQ with corresponding ProChannel module, for instance.

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#20
mkerl
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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/12 03:56:11 (permalink)
Amen

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Re: Is there a catch in the latest BandLab Cakewalk EULA? 2018/07/12 16:46:08 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Starise 2018/07/13 16:35:04
For those who wonder how BandLab will make money to support CbB, along with all the possibilities that have been mentioned I suspect the Link Analog audio interface gives a hint. It was introduced at Summer NAMM (and got a "Best in Show" award). I presume it's been tested extensively with CbB  Maybe Pro Tools, too LOL.

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