AnsweredIs there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR?

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Hammerforce
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2016/02/24 09:05:53 (permalink)

Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR?

Hi!
Could anybody confirm please if there is finally support of VST MIDI plugins as inserts on MIDI track in New SONAR Platinum? (not MFX plugins which are hard to find these days!)
I am considering upgrade to Platinum from X3 Producer, and this feature would have good amount of weight towards doing so... (Well yeah, I know there is bunch of other great new features in Platinum, but at the moment I am almost okay with what I already have)
Thanks!
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BobF
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/24 09:30:06 (permalink)
If not, this would be an awesome feature request.

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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/24 09:45:27 (permalink) ☼ Best Answerby Hammerforce 2016/02/26 18:15:37
Sadly there is not :(

Bruce.
 
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/24 10:36:59 (permalink)
Could you give an example of what you mean Hammerforce please.

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Hammerforce
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/24 11:27:15 (permalink)
Wookiee
Could you give an example of what you mean Hammerforce please.


There are tons of VST MIDI plugins out there. For example CodeFN42 CCStepper.
In most DAWs (as far as I understand it) such plugins can be used on MIDI track as MIDI insert plugin.
 
In SONAR we only can use such plugins if they can be loaded as usual VST plugins (as Soft Synth) and if they have dedicated MIDI In/Outs (that we have to route with MIDI track manually) and we must not forget to set Input Echo On (on MIDI track and/or Soft Synth track with such plugin depending on what we try to achieve). This work for some plugins and even for some chains of them. But it becomes really complicated to set up if you want 16 MIDI tracks with different chains of MIDI plugins for example...
 
SONAR only supports special MFX (DX?) plugins as MIDI inserts on MIDI track. And there are very few of them available now out there (especially 64 bit). =(

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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/24 11:49:44 (permalink)
Thanks for the information Hammerforce now I can have a hunt around and see what I can find.

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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/24 12:03:52 (permalink)
MFX has midi in and Midi out
VSTi midi fx have midi in and midi out.
 
So why not allow the option so VSTi midi fx to have equal status with MFX?
That would be great. Will really help midi workflow.
I do not think any DAW allows VSTi mid fx to be on the same list as the Cakewalk MFX or the proprietary midi fx.
In any case still allow the VSTi midi fx to be on an instrument track.
 
Here are my suggestions:
Make VSTi to MFX wrapper.
Make a modular environment that allows MFX and VSTi midi fx as modules.
 
 

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scook
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/24 12:23:41 (permalink)
Having VST MIDI effects and MFX plug-ins as peers in the MIDI FX rack might be handy. There may already be a feature request for it. I do not recall. The CodeFN42 CCStepper mentioned above is a different matter. Like several other sequencers, it uses MIDI note data for control. I am not sure it makes sense to drop this plug-in into an FX rack which also streams the same data to a synth.
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/24 13:54:26 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Hammerforce 2016/02/26 18:16:46
I am "playing" with that staff for a while, so several comments (some I have already written before, but it is hart to find where exactly), the following is quite "technical", but I do not know how to explain that simpler:
 
1) Implemented in Sonar DX based MFX processing is a bit different from VST with MIDI processing. They are working with the same "material" but different way.
 
VST (at least in VST2) is strictly audio oriented. That means it process ( output / forward ) MIDI events in discrete audio buffer units. So before VST is asked to process/output next audio buffer size number of samples, it receives MIDI events targeting that particular time period. Either it can output MIDI at the same time is a good question, the standard is unclear there and in examples they are not doing that. But if you output MIDI during audio output, the output is "delayed" by the buffer size. Can be quite significant, especially with several plug-ins in a chain. At least that effect is clearly audible in Sonar with buffer size over 512 even with one plug-in.
 
DX is prepared to work with "MIDI Only". It has 2 queues, one is "Life" and another is "Recorded". In the second case (when you play MIDI from track) the events are "preprocessed" to form complete MIDI "messages", like Note with duration, RPNs, etc. Also they are sent to plug-in covering much longer buffer (there is such Sonar setting, if I remember correctly it is about 200ms). Since the whole processing is "filtering", there is no delay.
 
So, VST wrapper is going to be a VST host which imitate audio processing "speed" for the target plug-in. Not impossible, but not trivial either.
 
2) DX -> VSTi route and MIDI routing in general in Sonar is so to say "not perfect" (read extremely buggy). DX and VSTi concepts are disjoint. I guess rewriting it completely is quite some work and just "touching" it can collapse somehow working current schema.
 
3) writing MFX Dx plug-in is not so hard, I think the problem is quite small audience (for example as I see for my MFX Velocity plug-in).
 
4) Lua based MFX processor (as requested by wst3 in another thread) is in active development. There are such projects in VST format. I have not found the same as DX. There will be no GUI, but creating such effects as CCStepper should be manageable within an hour for anyone who can calculate the sum of numbers from 1 to 64 using Basic/Excel/Any other computer language. So, for enthusiast they will be some toy to experiment with 

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Hammerforce
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/24 15:01:01 (permalink)
scook
The CodeFN42 CCStepper mentioned above is a different matter. Like several other sequencers, it uses MIDI note data for control. I am not sure it makes sense to drop this plug-in into an FX rack which also streams the same data to a synth.


Not always. It can be used generates CC step sequences without any input. So there is no problem on generating additional notes when feeding it back, just CC data.
 
azslow3
3) writing MFX Dx plug-in is not so hard, I think the problem is quite small audience (for example as I see for my MFX Velocity plug-in).
 
4) Lua based MFX processor (as requested by wst3 in another thread) is in active development. There are such projects in VST format. I have not found the same as DX. There will be no GUI, but creating such effects as CCStepper should be manageable within an hour for anyone who can calculate the sum of numbers from 1 to 64 using Basic/Excel/Any other computer language. So, for enthusiast they will be some toy to experiment with 



That is really interesting, thanks!!
I have some programming skill. But never tried plugins programming. May be it is a good time to start it.. =)

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azslow3
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/24 16:27:28 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Hammerforce 2016/02/26 18:17:00
Nice!
 
I was not aware about Lua till wst3 has mentioned it about a week ago. And I have to create easy to use binding for DX API (not one to one, I want it simpler), sandbox and control execution to prevent sonar crashes / real time engine disturbing from endless loops in musicians code and distributing viruses as plug-in presets by "smart" hackers   
 
And so once initial prototype is ready (in days, may be 1-2 weeks), I need help from 2 categories of users:
* Lua experts, to check that I have no horrible design mistakes (I see many Lua fans in Internet which are quite aggressive once spotting bad Lua code) 
* unexperienced in plug-ins programing "beta testers" to check the result/documentation/tutorials make sense (for me it make sense by definition, so I can not judge myself)
 
Just to mention: the project well be freeware but with closed source (at least for now I have no plans to publish it, everything I use is "clean" for almost any kind of license). Current plug-in size is 300 kB (single DLL, Lua interpreter build-in) and it is not going to grow much. The interface is from XX century, but unlike any other DX I have seen it can be resized (well... maximize button is grayed by Sonar, but border resizing is working).

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Hammerforce
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/24 16:51:05 (permalink)
azslow3
* unexperienced in plug-ins programing "beta testers" to check the result/documentation/tutorials make sense (for me it make sense by definition, so I can not judge myself)



I am not sure that I will have time to check everything, but I would be happy to try write some plugins for myself. I haven't done it before, and only heard about Lua few days ago. So totally unexperienced. But I have some programming experience, mostly on Delphi and years ago. Anyway I am not afraid to learn something new. =)

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azslow3
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/24 17:02:15 (permalink)
Delphi was good... Lua is not a problem for you then, I think is is more Delphi then CPP (if such comparison is possible at all). My MfxEvent class has "properties"

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Hammerforce
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/24 17:16:08 (permalink)
azslow3
Delphi was good... Lua is not a problem for you then, I think is is more Delphi then CPP (if such comparison is possible at all). My MfxEvent class has "properties"

Nice!
So please let me know when it is ready and I'll try! Thanks!!

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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/24 20:46:01 (permalink)
Isn't VST Module Architecture how VST MIDI plugins are done?  Different from the VST we're most familiar with ...

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azslow3
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/25 11:03:13 (permalink)
BobF
Isn't VST Module Architecture how VST MIDI plugins are done?  Different from the VST we're most familiar with ...

Can you point me on some information which confirm it is supported in Sonar? The only information I have found so far:
a) it is pretty "old"
b) some plug-in in this format was not recognized by Sonar 4
c) the question "what should I use?" in forums is normally answered "VST 2.x/VST 3.x".
 
One post from KVR (mbncp, 2008) more or less summarize the spirit:

That stuff is pretty buggy and totally abandonware. Woulddn't be suprised to see it gone in the next cubase version.

 
But in case there is any evidence it can work better then normal VST in Sonar, I can give it a try.

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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/25 12:23:42 (permalink)
I have nothing for you Az other than having seen it a few eons ago while grabbing the VST SDK.
 
The only DAWs I spend any real time in are Sonar and Reaper.  I've never seen MA mentioned in either forum, despite having read that MA was the MIDI side of VST.  But agin, that was a while back.
 
OK ... I just downloaded the MA SDK to have a look.  It appears that V1.0 in '04 is the last update.  Please disregard all mentions of VST MA above.   
 

 

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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/25 12:36:23 (permalink)
I just downloaded and checked the current VST SDK.  It appears that MA has been folded into the VST3.6 SDK.  I did some poking around in the docs and found zero references to MIDI
 

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azslow3
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/25 15:23:59 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Hammerforce 2016/02/26 18:27:31
If there are some example, may be you can test either Sonar recognize them. May be I will look later. At the moment I want finish at least simplest working version of my AZ Loa and I have already delayed WebDAW feature in AZCtrl and some other fancy staff...
 
My last attempts was with VST2.4. Simplest "MIDI repeater". I have got the whole set of problems with it: delay in forwarded MIDI (also DIFFERENT for live and recorded material, in the last case Sonar compensate it, in the first not), random loosing assignments for MIDI tracks connected to the plug-in outputs, especially if I try to "record" the input from another track (input is reset to omni, triggering "MIDI loopback" with logical consequences) and random hanging notes, at lease on X2 (I remember there was some fix in future Sonar versions). Many people use VST MIDI more or less successfully, but I do not like such flickery environment.

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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/26 04:59:29 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Hammerforce 2016/02/26 18:27:56
It seems that VST midi outputs don't work really well in Sonar, at least for me. I use some VSTs to control my hardware synths, Ctrlr staff and other, and I never couldn't make it work through Sonar internal midi path. I always use midi loop drivers for it. So if I set VST's midi out to the midi loop driver (in plug-in settings), and use this driver as midi track input in Sonar, it works fine. If I set plug-in to output midi to host, and route its output inside Sonar to other midi track, it always cause some troubles, some data are lost or corrupted in this way.
Also I made my own VST3 plug-ins with midi output, and tried to test Sonar midi with them, and it seems there is something not good with it, but I couldn't say what exactly the problem is.
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azslow3
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/02/26 08:12:15 (permalink)
Good to know I am not alone with my conclusions.

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azslow3
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/03/02 14:42:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Hammerforce 2016/03/02 18:51:05
Fighting with Sonar MFX I slowly come to the conclusion it is rubbish... at least for generating purpose (arpegiators and such). Discussions about fundamental problem there was back in 2003-2013, with the (semi-official) statement there will be no changes.
 
So either they replace MIDI processing part with new approach or it will stay frozen, like it stay last 15 years.

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Hammerforce
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/03/02 18:38:40 (permalink)
azslow3
Fighting with Sonar MFX I slowly come to the conclusion it is rubbish... at least for generating purpose (arpegiators and such). Discussions about fundamental problem there was back in 2003-2013, with the (semi-official) statement there will be no changes.
So either they replace MIDI processing part with new approach or it will stay frozen, like it stay last 15 years.

Thanks for fighting! And sad to know...

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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/03/02 21:30:31 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Hammerforce 2016/03/02 22:04:53
I've used midi-only VSTs like Cthulu and Catanya in X3e and in Hopkinton -- both work fine here. Have also used EZKeys and Kontakt in midi-out mode. 

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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/03/02 23:57:22 (permalink)
lingyai
I've used midi-only VSTs like Cthulu and Catanya in X3e and in Hopkinton -- both work fine here. Have also used EZKeys and Kontakt in midi-out mode. 


I use these as well but I think we are discussing different beasts.  These are vst instruments that output midi notes. Vst midi plugins can be applied to a midi track in a similar manner to the mfx midi plugins that come with Sonar. 

Bruce.
 
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#25
Adq
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/03/03 00:08:23 (permalink)
lingyai
I've used midi-only VSTs like Cthulu and Catanya in X3e and in Hopkinton -- both work fine here. Have also used EZKeys and Kontakt in midi-out mode. 

I don't know, but maybe it works fine with less number of notes or events, but worse with series of controllers or something bigger. Just a guess.
#26
azslow3
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/03/03 03:57:26 (permalink)
lingyai
I've used midi-only VSTs like Cthulu and Catanya in X3e and in Hopkinton -- both work fine here. Have also used EZKeys and Kontakt in midi-out mode.

Not that I do not trust you... I have tried several plug-ins and to understand my observations have written simplest possible MIDI VSTi (see one of my previous posts). All that works till some degree. But at no time it was "working fine" for me. Best comparison which comes into my mind is with Russian cars (especially old): not that you could not drive them, but you could never predict either it will deliver you from A to B today without troubles.
 
MFX API has fundamental design mistakes in part of non linear functionality, in both Live and Recorded processing scenario. They was always there and they was always known. There are no changes with that during last 15(!) years (if I understand that right, since the introduction of that feature). No wonder there is just one CW Arpegiator MFX plug-in, I guess everyone who has tried to write something is that direction has realized the problems and has moved away.
 
At the same time, simple filtering/mapping/switching (where one event on input should be converted to the fixed set of  output events) works ok.
 
And so:
* mapping/filtering - MFX (stable and predictable)
* non linear processing and generators - VSTi in the synth rack (buggy, but somehow works).

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#27
mettelus
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/03/03 04:27:07 (permalink)
I am not going to be able to shake the "old Russian car" analogy now...

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#28
subtlearts
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/03/03 07:06:20 (permalink)
My brain is like an old Russian car. Apparently. 

tobias tinker 
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#29
Hammerforce
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Re: Is there finally support of VST MIDI plug-ins in New SONAR? 2016/03/03 10:38:42 (permalink)
Yeah guys! Never buy Russian car!! )))
I know what I am talking about... ;))

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#30
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