BlueSwan
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Is this a good mastering solution?
A friend of mine works with the waves plugins. For his masters he uses a chain of:
1. LinEQ for applying eq.
2. C1 comp/gate for controlling the bottom end.
3. LinMB for multiband-compression
4. L2 for limiting
I think the results he is getting are very nice sounding. I'm considering getting just those four plugins so I can do the same. Would you say that this is a nice setup, or are there plugins that give you better results out there?
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neonknight
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/07 15:07:56
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mikehattem
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/07 15:34:37
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I have Ozone and the WAVES Platinum Bundle (all 35 of their plug-ins, of which I use maybe 6).
I usually send the final mix through the Ozone for its mb comp, eq, mb exciter, and widener. Then I use the WAVES L2 for limiting (raising the overall volume). This seems to work well for me. However the trick to OZONE is to use it sparingly - because even a little too much can ruin a decent mix... its very easy to overprocess with Ozone. You just have to be very judicious.
Mike
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ohhey
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/07 15:40:16
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ORIGINAL: BlueSwan
A friend of mine works with the waves plugins. For his masters he uses a chain of:
1. LinEQ for applying eq.
2. C1 comp/gate for controlling the bottom end.
3. LinMB for multiband-compression
4. L2 for limiting
I think the results he is getting are very nice sounding. I'm considering getting just those four plugins so I can do the same. Would you say that this is a nice setup, or are there plugins that give you better results out there?
Frankly, I can't imagine a mix bad enought to need all that. Now that remixes are quick and easy just go back and fix the mix. You can even put the master compressor right on the main buss so it's what you hear is what you get.
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BlueSwan
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/07 15:42:52
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ORIGINAL: mikehattem
I have Ozone and the WAVES Platinum Bundle (all 35 of their plug-ins, of which I use maybe 6).
I usually send the final mix through the Ozone for its mb comp, eq, mb exciter, and widener. Then I use the WAVES L2 for limiting (raising the overall volume). This seems to work well for me. However the trick to OZONE is to use it sparingly - because even a little too much can ruin a decent mix... its very easy to overprocess with Ozone. You just have to be very judicious.
Mike
Yeah, I know. I tried mastering a couple of my tracks with Ozone once. One of the songs sounded incredible - it really got a LOT of "polish". The other sounded terribly overprocessed, though.
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BlueSwan
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/07 15:44:58
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ORIGINAL: ohhey
Frankly, I can't imagine a mix bad enought to need all that. Now that remixes are quick and easy just go back and fix the mix. You can even put the master compressor right on the main buss so it's what you hear is what you get.
Well, you haven't heard my mixes!  No seriously, I thought that eq, multi-band compression and limiting was pretty standard when mastering just about any mix??
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Tonmann
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/07 15:57:26
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My solution:
LPGEQ2 -> C3 -> BuzMaxi3
Under normal conditions I ommit the EQ, since I already try to build the arrangement that way that it already sounds good, so there's only some compression and limiting needed to get a "good" master.
Also, I put these effects right into the master bus of Sonar, because I found it out to be more convenient than the "mastering offline" solution.
cheers,
Chris
...maybe I never realized the joy till the joy was gone...
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attalus
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/07 16:14:31
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I agree with all three replies.
1.You should try izotope ozone aswell (but be carefull you don't overprocess it with this creating a thin, less rich,less intense,to digital and vacant sound,for it is VERY powerfull, and dynamite when used right.
2.Like ohhey said in so many words, don't get carried away with alot of different processesors and simply try to fix it in the mix (but it is also good to still have a good collection there incase you do need one or all of them).
3.Waves are very expensive (frankly i can find just as good and in my opinion even better for less)If you buy waves don't buy single plugins, buy a bundle they have and you'll save alot.There single plugins are VERY expensive.
Some cheap but great alternatives are izotope ozone, Voxengo's (curve eq, harmonieq,elephant limiter,soniformer "32 band multiband compressor",polyquasher single band compressor,r 8 brain pro "best resampler on the market" etc). another cheap set (cheapest of all) i recently found out about is Buzcomp bundle (only $50.00} it has 5 compressors, a single band, a double, triple-up to five bands.It also has a good limiter (though not as good as elephant it gets the job done, and is better than alot of more expensive ones) this bundle is made by buzzroom.
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UnderTow
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/07 16:29:51
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ORIGINAL: BlueSwan
A friend of mine works with the waves plugins. For his masters he uses a chain of:
1. LinEQ for applying eq.
2. C1 comp/gate for controlling the bottom end.
3. LinMB for multiband-compression
4. L2 for limiting
I think the results he is getting are very nice sounding. I'm considering getting just those four plugins so I can do the same. Would you say that this is a nice setup, or are there plugins that give you better results out there?
The Waves stuff is pretty good but I personaly like working with the Voxengo tools. http://www.voxengo.com/ They are about 1/10th the price of the Waves stuff and, to my ears, sound better. Here are some graphs of the harmonic distortion introduced by the Waves L2 and L3 limiters compared to the Voxengo Elephant 2: http://home.casema.nl/ajohnston/limiting/ So they measure better too ... They also go further in depth than the Waves stuff. CurveEQ is my favorite linear phase EQ and Soniformer is my favorite multi-band compressor (32 bands or more if you need that ...). But as always, with powerfull tools you can make a serious mess of things. :) Use with care. UnderTow
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SteveJL
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/07 16:44:06
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To elucidate a little on what Frank was getting at, a good mix should require little, if any, mastering processing. That chain should not be needed all the time, if ever. If a mix is done right, you should only need some limiting/compression to bring up the overall volume (not really necessary if you get it as hot as possible in the mix....."help stamp out the volume wars" ), a little light EQ maybe for sheen. Most mastering suites offer all the bells because people put out so many bad mixes. IMO, it is better to hone one's Mixing skills so that Mastering effects are barely needed.
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Guest
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/07 16:55:31
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i use ozone .. but i use it pretty sparingly .. and there are somethings
which i do not use at all:
1. Harmonic Exciter .. be very afraid of this tool .. it is *extremely*
fatiguing on the ear. If you do use it, don't go above "1"... on any
of the bands.
2. Multiband compressor settings... the thresholds on the mutliband presets
are up pretty high .. be mindful of warble/flutters at low playing levels .. particularly
during fadeouts.
3. Stereo imager ... can make a mono-friendly mix very un-mono with a slight flick
of the wrist. There's no reason to use it if you have the base tracks.
That said, there are some very nice things about the tool .. the paragraphic EQ
is very accurate .. the mastering verb is pretty controllable, and the loudness
maximizer is every bit as good as the L1.
Ozone is mighty hungry on the CPU .. but then again, so are the Waves plugins.
Jeff
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attalus
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/07 17:15:19
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To elucidate a little on what Frank was getting at, a good mix should require little, if any, mastering processing. That chain should not be needed all the time, if ever. If a mix is done right, you should only need some limiting/compression to bring up the overall volume (not really necessary if you get it as hot as possible in the mix....."help stamp out the volume wars" ), a little light EQ maybe for sheen. Most mastering suites offer all the bells because people put out so many bad mixes. IMO, it is better to hone one's Mixing skills so that Mastering effects are barely needed. Well put, and i agree wholeheartedly.To add to it, one of the biggest problems people have when it comes to "home mastering" is overprocessing, and adding processing effects just cause they can or because they believe it's the thing to do, rather than letting the mix tell them what it needs or don't need.Also getting caught in the loudness war has probably ruined more tracks than making tracks that have come out good.As a listener to music i like a beautiful,rich,flavorful sound over a loud noise, i have my own volume knob on my radio to turn your track up if it needs it (speaking to all artist and mastering engineers, end the war, focus on beauty not beast).
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ohhey
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/07 19:31:59
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ORIGINAL: BlueSwan
ORIGINAL: ohhey
Frankly, I can't imagine a mix bad enought to need all that. Now that remixes are quick and easy just go back and fix the mix. You can even put the master compressor right on the main buss so it's what you hear is what you get.
Well, you haven't heard my mixes! No seriously, I thought that eq, multi-band compression and limiting was pretty standard when mastering just about any mix??
I'm not aware of any "stanard" things that are done in mastering. Mastering is the art of knowing exactly what the song needs and doing no more then that. So the first step would be listen, not process. It may need nothing at all. In the old days where mixes where done on a huge mixer with racks of outboard gear, there was no good way of remixing a song because all the gear had been messed with to do the next job and there was no way to get it back where it was. So mastering was often a job of polishing crap. Today we don't have to do that. remixing is nothing and takes only a few clicks. Because of this dramatic shift in process, less should need to be done in mastering. For example if you have some lumpy spots in the bass go back to the mix and find out what tracks are causing the problem and use the clip gain or a limiter to fix the track, processing the entire mix to do that is like punishing it for someone elses crime. Spending the time to get the mix right is time well spend. Processing the stereo wav till it gets all "bent" sounding is just wasting all the power we now have to remix.
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jsaras
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/07 19:39:39
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Although I do use Waves' LinEQ occasionally I don't like the user interface that much. It sounds great, but it's hard to carve the sound that I want to achieve with it. I would probably suggest getting another linear phase EQ such as Voxengo's Curve EQ.
The C1 is an often overlooked gem. If you don't need the gating or the sidechaining you could just as easily use the Sonitus comp IMO.
I very rarely use multiband compression. Fixing the problem(s) in the mix would be a far better idea. I've heard way too many "multi-bad" mixes come across my desk. Stick with a good single band compressor.
Voxengo's Elephant is as good if not better limiter than the L2. It even has an "EL-2" preset if that's the sound you're going after :)
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attalus
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/07 20:36:59
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I'm not aware of any "stanard" things that are done in mastering. Mastering is the art of knowing exactly what the song needs and doing no more then that. So the first step would be listen, not process. It may need nothing at all.
In the old days where mixes where done on a huge mixer with racks of outboard gear, there was no good way of remixing a song because all the gear had been messed with to do the next job and there was no way to get it back where it was. So mastering was often a job of polishing crap. Today we don't have to do that. remixing is nothing and takes only a few clicks. Because of this dramatic shift in process, less should need to be done in mastering. For example if you have some lumpy spots in the bass go back to the mix and find out what tracks are causing the problem and use the clip gain or a limiter to fix the track, processing the entire mix to do that is like punishing it for someone elses crime. Spending the time to get the mix right is time well spend. Processing the stereo wav till it gets all "bent" sounding is just wasting all the power we now have to remix. Well wrote ohhey! I totally agree aswell.It is better to deal with most problems by going to the individual track where it lies rather than putting a processing effect over the whole mix.A good mix leaves little to nothing to be done in mastering.Although it is still good to have the proper mastering tools, for some tracks need polishing from this stage. I agree with jmarkham about Izotope Ozone's harmonic exciter, I would never put over a whole mix, for one it's not transient discriminate so it tends to effect instruments within your mix that you don't want effected in a bad way, meaning if you use the bass end of it your going to have sounds in your mix that you don't want bassy, bassy, same goes for higher end. I use Aphex 204 for exciter needs (hardware) i also plan to buy spectralive because i like how it goes on audio.but you will get tired of listening to Ozones exciter.This is not saying that it is'nt dynamite on individual sounds at times!Ozone has it's flaws but still it is some of the best mixing/mastering software on the market!
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BlueSwan
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/08 11:48:53
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Thanks for all the responses guys. It's all being taken into consideration! 
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Gregmang
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/08 13:55:42
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My chain is Voxengo Soniformer>Voxengo GlissEQ>Vozengo Elephant.
All used sparingly. BTW - Soniformer has a great "width envelope".
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j boy
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/08 14:20:28
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ORIGINAL: ohhey
Frankly, I can't imagine a mix bad enought to need all that. Boy, I agree with that... I've learned (the hard way) that less is usually more when it comes to mixing and post-mix processing. I question the use of EQ as a general rule when applied across the entire mix, unless there's something specific to fix. Like Frank says, go back to the individual elements and make them sound right. EQ for the whole mix usually seems un-necessary as a general rule for me. That "sheen" stuff sounds too processed for my liking. My current formula, "subject to revision without notice" (LOL), consists of shooting for these peak levels in the mix: Drums sub-mix = -3 dB to -8 dB (depending on the song) Bass = -14 dB Vocals = -6 dB Main outs = -6 dB I then export the whole shebang to a stereo .wav file and re-import into a new instance of Sonar. I insert the Sonitus compressor, then the Voxengo Elephant, and lastly the Voxengo SPAN analyzer to help me dial things in. The single-band compressor I adjust generally for unity gain, with a ratio of about 1.3/1 and threshold at about -16 dB. The Elephant is set for +6.4 dB input gain and +0.5 dB output gain with EL-3 setting, and the speed varies between slow and medium depending on the song. I use SPAN to hit about -12 db RMS average for the song. Depending on whether the song is hotter or softer, I can vary the gain ratio at the Sonitus compressor by +/- 0.01 or 0.02 dB increments from unity gain to ensure that the songs all flow together properly in the collection. This formula is working out well for me... best results I've achieved so far.
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Tonmann
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/08 14:39:52
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ORIGINAL: j boy
My current formula, "subject to revision without notice" (LOL), consists of shooting for these peak levels in the mix:
Drums sub-mix = -3 dB to -8 dB (depending on the song)
Bass = -14 dB
Vocals = -6 dB
Main outs = -6 dB
(...) I use SPAN to hit about -12 db RMS average for the song. (...)
That's interesting. Even though I use a different setup for mastering purposes (see above), I experienced quite the same values here. For my ears, a mix with abt. -12dB RMS sounds best most of the time, too. cheers, Chris
...maybe I never realized the joy till the joy was gone...
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Sticky Shed
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/08 15:08:20
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Frankly, I can't imagine a mix bad enought to need all that.
Hell, I can :-) I re-mix a lot of old, archived material for comps. In the past I've lent heavily on the Waves suite (along with Sound forge Noise Reduction), but of late my first tool has tended to be Har-bal. Once the time has been taken to learn and master this thing, you can develop a fairly arrogant self-confidence about how your mixes will translate. Once I've Har-bal-ed, I will use either or both of the C4 and L2 to provide the MSG and brick-walling. Sometimes I will include the Ozone Stereo widener in the chain if needed. I've come to depend on Har-bal. It's cheap and incredibly powerful. Don't ignore it! http://www.har-bal.com/
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thorne
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/08 15:44:59
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Adding my vote which bolsters what others have already said... If I've done my track recording correctly (clean, hot levels) and applied corrective/additive (as desired) effects to each track, the only master bus effects I add SOMETIMES are mulitband compression to make certain frequency ranges a bit punchier and EQ to brighten the overall mix or add some bass punch. If I find myself adding much more than that, I know I've done a poor job on the tracks and usually will go back and revisit each track. Thorne
post edited by thorne - 2005/08/08 15:50:33
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ohhey
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/08 15:49:35
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ORIGINAL: Sticky Shed
Frankly, I can't imagine a mix bad enought to need all that.
Hell, I can :-)
I re-mix a lot of old, archived material for comps. In the past I've lent heavily on the Waves suite (along with Sound forge Noise Reduction), but of late my first tool has tended to be Har-bal. Once the time has been taken to learn and master this thing, you can develop a fairly arrogant self-confidence about how your mixes will translate.
Once I've Har-bal-ed, I will use either or both of the C4 and L2 to provide the MSG and brick-walling. Sometimes I will include the Ozone Stereo widener in the chain if needed. I've come to depend on Har-bal. It's cheap and incredibly powerful. Don't ignore it!
http://www.har-bal.com/
LOL ! Yeah.. the old two track stuff you can't remix is "fun" to work on. It is amazing what you can do with stuff now. I've even done some old cassette tapes and made them sound a lot better. However, wow and flutter never goes away. I wish AutoTune could fix that.
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daverich
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/08 16:04:21
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Just mastered my new album and I only use a pultec EQ for a tad of sheen and elephant.
Kind regards
dave Rich.
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UnderTow
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/08 16:19:25
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ORIGINAL: j boy
The Elephant is set for +6.4 dB input gain and +0.5 dB output gain with EL-3 setting, and the speed varies between slow and medium depending on the song.
The output level is the maximum level that the signal can reach. You should never have the Elephant output set above 0 dB or it can cause clipping. If you want more gain, increase the input level. Personaly I set the output at -0.4 dB to avoid inter sample peak clipping: if two samples have a value of 0 dB, there can still be a peak between these samples that goes above 0db FS. UnderTow
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diamondjim
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/08 16:21:28
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I use Ozone sparingly, mostly just some overall EQ adjustment if the mix sounds muddy, and the limiter to bring the volume up to about -15 db RMS avergage, with peaks seldom over -6 db. I master in Wavelab 5, and use its metering and analysis tools to make sure the RMS is where I want it. Then I render the wav file to a mastered version, which ends up going into the stereo montage file for final cd production.
But I really like the way Spectralive adds a dash of spice. I also did not care much for the harmonic exciter in Ozone. But with Spectralive too much is like too much salt in the soup. So I usually pick a preset that sounds good, and then drop down the Mix and/or Vitality controls to around 50% or less, depending on the sound. Spectralive used sparingly can add a subtle bit of presence that sounds great in my mostly acoustic mixes.
-+ http://www.barnjazz.com +- pcAudioLabs Core2 Duo E6600 2.6GHz, 4 Gig Ram, Plextor DVD/CD writers, RME FF800, Tascam FW-1884, Frontier Tranzport, JBL LSR4328P monitors, UAD-1, Sonar 6 PE, Wavelab 6, Harbal, Ozone3, BFD, Rapture, Project5, DimP
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diamondjim
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/08 16:30:53
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Oh and one more important use of EQ is to roll off the low end around 50hz and below, to get rid of subsonic low frequencies that can make it more difficult to raise the overall level. You do this by applying a high pass filter on the low end with a gradual rolloff from around 40-50 hz dropping down about --30 db or so. If needed I might apply a slight mid-range dip, or possibly some slight high end "air" boost above 5K, but rarely more than that. Otherwise go back and fix it in the mix is the best approach.
-+ http://www.barnjazz.com +- pcAudioLabs Core2 Duo E6600 2.6GHz, 4 Gig Ram, Plextor DVD/CD writers, RME FF800, Tascam FW-1884, Frontier Tranzport, JBL LSR4328P monitors, UAD-1, Sonar 6 PE, Wavelab 6, Harbal, Ozone3, BFD, Rapture, Project5, DimP
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j boy
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/08 16:32:35
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ORIGINAL: UnderTow
ORIGINAL: j boy
The Elephant is set for +6.4 dB input gain and +0.5 dB output gain with EL-3 setting, and the speed varies between slow and medium depending on the song.
The output level is the maximum level that the signal can reach. You should never have the Elephant output set above 0 dB or it can cause clipping. If you want more gain, increase the input level.
Personaly I set the output at -0.4 dB to avoid inter sample peak clipping: if two samples have a value of 0 dB, there can still be a peak between these samples that goes above 0db FS.
UnderTow
Alexey at Voxengo says that the output gain isn't a ceiling-type control, more just another gain stage after the limiter. AFAIK there's still quite a bit of headroom between 0.0 dB on the Elephant and 0 full scale, which would be the maximum digital signal strength. In any event, I always check my finished file in Wavelab and have never exceeded 0.0 dB no matter what - so the Elephant (in EL-3 mode anyway) is a true brickwall. As far as clipping, yes, the Elephant indicates clips but truthfully there are no artifacts that I can detect, so I go on the premise that if it sounds good...it is.
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UnderTow
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/09 18:37:13
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ORIGINAL: j boy
ORIGINAL: UnderTow
The output level is the maximum level that the signal can reach. You should never have the Elephant output set above 0 dB or it can cause clipping. If you want more gain, increase the input level.
Personaly I set the output at -0.4 dB to avoid inter sample peak clipping: if two samples have a value of 0 dB, there can still be a peak between these samples that goes above 0db FS.
UnderTow
Alexey at Voxengo says that the output gain isn't a ceiling-type control, more just another gain stage after the limiter.
Sure but if you have that above 0 dB, you can still cause clipping in the DA's (see below).
AFAIK there's still quite a bit of headroom between 0.0 dB on the Elephant and 0 full scale, which would be the maximum digital signal strength.
I think there is headroom because it works with floating point maths. When you go to fixed point 24/16 bit for CD, you loose that extra headroom.
In any event, I always check my finished file in Wavelab and have never exceeded 0.0 dB no matter what - so the Elephant (in EL-3 mode anyway) is a true brickwall. As far as clipping, yes, the Elephant indicates clips but truthfully there are no artifacts that I can detect, so I go on the premise that if it sounds good...it is.
AFAIK you can't see inter sample peaks that go above 0 dB FS in Wavelab as the sample values are not above 0 dB FS. The waveform between these samples _can_ go above 0 dB FS. The problem occurs when the digital audio is played back by cheap converters (those in some consumer CD players for instance) that have no or not enough headroom in the D/A converters themselves. You would have to measure this in the analogue domain. You might never have problems with the converters in your own system but that doesn't mean that the signal coming from the final CD will never clip on another (cheaper) system. Admitedly this is nit picking ... but it is so easy to just set the output of the limiter a little bit lower. :) And back to my original point, if you have enough headroom to set the output at +0.5 dB, you can just as well set the input 0.5 dB louder instead. :) UnderTow
post edited by UnderTow - 2005/08/09 18:42:24
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pharohoknaughty
Max Output Level: -66 dBFS
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/09 19:09:11
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be sure to check out the mastering manual from Izotope. It is very informative and to the point.
Ozone is good for mastering, especially if you want a relativey simple one stop solution.
Those Waves products are great, but have a long learning curve. Download the maunuals and study them before you buy.
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Bransonkeys
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RE: Is this a good mastering solution?
2005/08/09 23:57:12
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I use the LinMultiband (which is comp and EQ) lightly if I've mixed the song and then the L2 set on cd master setting which puts the output at -0.2(then adjust the threshold). I like to do this in sound forge after I've mixed down. So I can hit statistics and get the RMS. After I get the first reading I do the math to figure how much to go up or down on the threshold to put it where I want (usually between -14 and -12 depending on the style. I do try to keep one RMS for each album though. Happy Mastering that's my two cents. 
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