Helpful ReplyIs using an arp "cheating"

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Rus W
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 16:10:55 (permalink)
Danny Danzi


AT


Of course it is.  If you can't play it live ...  Recording is cheating.  Using a mic is cheating, as well as an electric amp.

a real musician will bang two stones together to make their music.

;-)

Even better, one time I didn't have any controller hooked up to play drums....I so hate programming. So I grabbed a mic, and started mouthing drum parts. Had kick, snare, hats, toms, ride and crashes. Recorded them all one track at a time....and ran Drumagog on each track....instant drum kit! Hahaha! :)
 
-Danny

Ditto! But you guys do have skills though! And as you probably know that their are programs out there that turn beatboxing into sequenced patterns. But one video on YT I saw was absolutely ridiculous - I'll post it when I find it. And @AT: That was all there was back in the cave people days - so, this section we call percussion is very VERY ancient!

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#31
droddey
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 18:06:26 (permalink)
I thought he meant an actual ARP as well.

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#32
batsbrew
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 18:28:11 (permalink)
arp:






arp:








arp:


\




to play any of these, is to not cheat.






i saw roger fisher of heart, trigger an Arp synth with his guitar when they did the 'dog and butterfly' tour.




good ARP

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#33
The Band19
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 20:28:36 (permalink)
To me, ARP is Address Resolution Protocol. 

Sittin downtown in a railway station one toke over the line.
#34
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/15 04:17:05 (permalink)
To me it will always mean Air Raid Precautions

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#35
tbosco
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/15 08:18:57 (permalink)
If the goal is MUSIC, then to me anything goes (if it's musical of course.)
If the goal is musicianSHIP, it might be cheating.

I have starting using arps and/or loops quite a bit in my dance-oriented music.  The arps/loops are just ingredients used in my musical soup, just like cooking.... if I use a Pet Ritz frozen pie crust for my pumpkin pie (which is SPECTACULAR, BTW), do you say I'm not a cook since I don't make my own crust?

I think if you can use an arp or loop in a creative, musical, artistic way, which results in a song that people want to hear, you have succeeded.  Some people can't do that.  Some can.

Listen to the very opening synth lick of this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJA6CXQI71U

I could never play that.  So did I cheat?  But does it sound OK?

Peace, out.  :-)

Cheers!

Tony

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#36
spacey
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/15 08:26:28 (permalink)
Along time ago I saw a Blue Man Group.
"cheating" didn't cross my mind...not sure if they used an arp though.
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batsbrew
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/15 10:21:45 (permalink)
i think that was a Harp.

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#38
Danny Danzi
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/15 13:27:16 (permalink)
tbosco


If the goal is MUSIC, then to me anything goes (if it's musical of course.)
If the goal is musicianSHIP, it might be cheating.

I have starting using arps and/or loops quite a bit in my dance-oriented music.  The arps/loops are just ingredients used in my musical soup, just like cooking.... if I use a Pet Ritz frozen pie crust for my pumpkin pie (which is SPECTACULAR, BTW), do you say I'm not a cook since I don't make my own crust?

I think if you can use an arp or loop in a creative, musical, artistic way, which results in a song that people want to hear, you have succeeded.  Some people can't do that.  Some can.

Listen to the very opening synth lick of this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJA6CXQI71U

I could never play that.  So did I cheat?  But does it sound OK?

Peace, out.  :-)

Pff...screw that intro lick....that tune was awesome sounding from start to finish. LOL! Great production brother. What piano was that? Sounded like the East West stuff. Ok, the intro lick was good...lol...and no, you didn't cheat...but I was blown away by what came after. Hahahaha...that was great Tony...way to go. Set us up for a little synth lick and then the monster tune comes. LOL! :)
 
-Danny 

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#39
tbosco
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/15 14:38:11 (permalink)
Wow, thanks Danny!  If I remember correctly, every single sound in that tune came from my Yamaha Motif XF7, and the Piano voice is called Glascow, which I tweaked a hair to add a bit of treble and took out a little reverb.

My friend Dawn played the piano part, and I added all the orchestral sounds, percussion, and THE ARP afterwards.

Cheers!

Tony

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#40
bitflipper
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/15 18:27:45 (permalink)
I enjoyed your Bridge of Sighs mashup, Tony. Clever.

I still employ my old Yamaha MO8 (same soundset as your Motif) on a regular basis, despite having a terabyte of sample libraries on call. I'm amazed at how much quality they squeezed into 175MB of ROM. I've got tambourine samples that are bigger than that.



All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#41
tbosco
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/16 10:35:07 (permalink)
bitflipper-  I find the Yamaha sounds to be the most natural and useful of my entire arsenal.  Their synth-y stuff isn't the greatest, but for stock, natural sounds, Yamaha has the lock on 'em in my opinion.

And thanks for the compliment!

Cheers!

Tony

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#42
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/16 11:27:16 (permalink)
Yamaha have always come up with some great sounds for their synths.

I quite often fire up my old AN1X and get some great sounds out ofi t.

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#43
spacealf
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/16 14:24:46 (permalink)
Yep, that's the sounds of today's music. Well some of it. Whatever is different, not just arps.
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sharke
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/17 17:04:00 (permalink)
In my experience, people who complain that using arps is "cheating," would quite happy record a 2-bar bass line and loop it in their DAW. Sure you played those two bars, but what is stopping you from just recording the whole part live through the entire song? Is it that you don't feel you could sustain the timing and technique through the whole tune? Surely a "real" musician would have no trouble laying the whole part down. But no, they limit themselves to playing 2 bars correctly, and when they finally get a good take down, they loop it as needed. 

I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but it's unfair to accuse the arp player of not being a real musician. Sometimes the style of a song needs mathematically perfect arps played at a speed which otherwise good musicians couldn't possibly manage. What about someone who can play beautiful pieces at a slow tempo, but their fingers are just not physically up to the task of playing fast arpeggios across three octaves? Sure you could enter the notes manually if they're an irregular pattern, but if they fit a common arp pattern then what exactly is "less musical" about automating the task as opposed to clicking individual notes in a PRV? 

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#45
b rock
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/18 16:31:37 (permalink)
ps: give me one of your arp "tricks" you use....

 
Friends don't let friends latch an arpeggiator.  Plus, there's this:
 
Alesion ARP Presets
In Sonar X2 Producer, extract them to hard drive letter:\Cakewalk Content\SONAR X2 Producer\Arpeggiator Patterns.
 
All arpeggiators are not created equal.  If you want to sound like everyone else, pick one of algorithms that've been around since (before) Duran Duran went to Rio.  Up, Down (Forward, Reverse), one of the inclusive / exclusive circle variations.  Even Random can stay boring with just the right static input.  Then latch it, and play block chords.
 
For you non-conformists, selecting an *As Played - Trigger - Order* variation gives you control over patterns with live input (or drawn-in notes, for that matter).   Velocity values that are *recorded* can help out a great deal.  While a Lexicon MPX-1 has an arpeggiator weaker than an SCI Six-Trak, it does have one redeeming quality.  A Mod Wheel at rest (0 value) uses the velocities as they were played in.  CC1 values of 1-127 correspond to velocity value output in the arpeggiator pattern.  Fade-ins, fade-outs, control over the exact note velocities. (Nearly the same thing can be done in Sonar's arp.)
 
The Alesis Ion / Micron had a fairly unique set of arpeggiator features; control over rhythmic patterns, pattern length, octave jumps, etc.  Unconstrained by 16th note regularity and 4-on-the-floor lockstep; unless you deliberately set it up that way.  Those parameters are mirrored in the Alesion ARP Presets download.  The Project5*-to-Sonar arpeggiator has a lot of the same qualities, but you have to dig a little to bring them out.  Those 'One Note Wonder" shipping presets don't help.  A pattern made up of scale-locked sequences has a very narrow window of application.
 
True arpeggiators process incoming notes, then apply algorithms to those notes as they change.  Taking a creative approach has been mentioned above here.  By playing in & around the arpeggiator patterns, and varying the amount of notes that it's currently monitoring, you can vary the shape of the pattern output.  What you don't play is as important as what you do.  Automation of the constituent arpeggiator components does much the same.  Better still: direct MIDI Remote control over the number of octaves, algorithm, or tempo division adds a hands-on approach to a slightly-overused tool.
 
Or, just hit the Latch button.  It sounds awesome with supersaws & Hoovers under hard-Autotuned vocals.
 
*Note: As far as I know, having Project5 installed is the only way to create your own .arp presets for Sonar.
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#46
Dave Modisette
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/18 19:09:20 (permalink)
Danny Danzi


I say everything is a "go" if you need it. These tools were made for people to use and if it gets your idea out of your head to where you like what you've done, you made the right choice.

Now, me as a guitar player....I literally play arpeggios in my lead passages. If I were not able to play one up to speed and decided to play the passage extra slow and then have the computer speed it up so it sounds right, I'm cheating and it's unacceptable to ME. If someone that doesn't play guitar like that decides to cheat and do it, by all means it's acceptable...as long as they fess up and say "hey, I wish I could play like that but I can't....so here's what it would sound like if I could!" :)

-Danny

Have you ever alternate tuned a guitar for a particular chord arpeggio, punched it in where need and sat back and wondered if anyone would ever try to play it with standard tuning and find it was impossible?  Haha.

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#47
Rus W
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/18 19:52:28 (permalink)
Mod Bod


Danny Danzi


I say everything is a "go" if you need it. These tools were made for people to use and if it gets your idea out of your head to where you like what you've done, you made the right choice.

Now, me as a guitar player....I literally play arpeggios in my lead passages. If I were not able to play one up to speed and decided to play the passage extra slow and then have the computer speed it up so it sounds right, I'm cheating and it's unacceptable to ME. If someone that doesn't play guitar like that decides to cheat and do it, by all means it's acceptable...as long as they fess up and say "hey, I wish I could play like that but I can't....so here's what it would sound like if I could!" :)

-Danny

Have you ever alternate tuned a guitar for a particular chord arpeggio, punched it in where need and sat back and wondered if anyone would ever try to play it with standard tuning and find it was impossible?  Haha.

Doesn't have to be an arp. It's hard to tell if the transpose button (on a keyboard) or capo (on a guitar) was used unless of course, you are told this; however, especially with basses, when clear when de-tuning has occurred (unless one is playing a five or six strings - cause many think four string - This is what has occurred when bands bring multiple guitars with them on stage. They've been de-tuned way before hand, so it's just "pick up and play" (my sister has several guitars herself and probably has done this as well)


Even I've written compositions where I think an instrument can't do something, but turns out it can! (No note lower than A55 - the most left note on a standard piano. Often times, I have wonder given the way I write if my parts can be done (and they're quite colorful to say the least). Yet, I rather not think this because the hampers the writing. IOW, I don't cross that bridge until I get there.

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#48
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/19 04:59:59 (permalink)
Mod Bod


Danny Danzi


I say everything is a "go" if you need it. These tools were made for people to use and if it gets your idea out of your head to where you like what you've done, you made the right choice.

Now, me as a guitar player....I literally play arpeggios in my lead passages. If I were not able to play one up to speed and decided to play the passage extra slow and then have the computer speed it up so it sounds right, I'm cheating and it's unacceptable to ME. If someone that doesn't play guitar like that decides to cheat and do it, by all means it's acceptable...as long as they fess up and say "hey, I wish I could play like that but I can't....so here's what it would sound like if I could!" :)

-Danny

Have you ever alternate tuned a guitar for a particular chord arpeggio, punched it in where need and sat back and wondered if anyone would ever try to play it with standard tuning and find it was impossible?  Haha.


Stop giving my secrets away

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#49
Danny Danzi
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/07/15 16:19:06 (permalink)
Mod Bod
Danny Danzi


I say everything is a "go" if you need it. These tools were made for people to use and if it gets your idea out of your head to where you like what you've done, you made the right choice.

Now, me as a guitar player....I literally play arpeggios in my lead passages. If I were not able to play one up to speed and decided to play the passage extra slow and then have the computer speed it up so it sounds right, I'm cheating and it's unacceptable to ME. If someone that doesn't play guitar like that decides to cheat and do it, by all means it's acceptable...as long as they fess up and say "hey, I wish I could play like that but I can't....so here's what it would sound like if I could!" :)

-Danny

Have you ever alternate tuned a guitar for a particular chord arpeggio, punched it in where need and sat back and wondered if anyone would ever try to play it with standard tuning and find it was impossible?  Haha.


Dave I know this is an old post, but I meant to reply to it before and answer you. I don't ever alternate tune because I'm forever alternate tuned by....umm...accident and have been tuning this way since I was about 4. LOL! I use a form of an open C tuning always. It's the only way I know how to play. I mean I CAN play in standard tuning if I need to, but it's foreign to me. The low C tuning allows for Eb, D, C# and C UNDER your standard, open E 6th string. So I've never had to retune.
 
The funny thing about my stuff is, those who have tried to learn it say "this is impossible in standard tuning!" which in some cases, it is. What's even funnier, when they see me play things in person, they scratch their heads because most times, they don't know I'm tuned like a goof-ball. It's super funny when I play in my VH cover band. Guys come up to me and say "c'mon, fess up...are you faking playing that stuff? I know these songs and when I play them, they do NOT look like that!" :)
 
In answer to your question though, I HAVE had to punch in parts that could be played by one guitar. There are certain limitations within my tuning that make some things pretty impossible for me to play. So when those situations arise, I play one part of it and then punch in the other part on another track....blend the two and it sounds like one guitar. This seems to only happen to me when I have to play on other peoples material though to which they would play/tune in standard tuning. Anything I write, I always can play in one pass without punching in two parts.
 
-Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2013/07/15 16:20:46

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#50
sharke
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/07/17 01:33:02 (permalink)
When playing fingerstyle I very often tune my guitar differently "on spec" in order to facilitate some kind of harmony or phrasing or other. Sometimes these random tunings stay with me, for instance one of my guitars is nearly always tuned EADGAE because when I pick with the banjo "boom-chucka" style the high A and E strings make a nice drone. I think Stanley Jordan always has his high strings as C and F because it evens out the intervals between strings and coming from the piano it helped him at lot. I also play a lot of old lute music on my nylon string with the G tuned down to F#. It's funny really, we have so much potential for variation by tuning our instruments in different ways, but 99% of players stick with the old EADGBE...

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#51
spacey
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/07/17 09:48:23 (permalink)

Is using an arp "cheating"

 
I thought; is that a silly question or what?.
Faster than the speed of light "YES" went off and without a question mark too. ;)
#52
The Band19
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/07/18 01:13:56 (permalink)
To me an ARP is Address Resolution Protocol... And you can't make things work on a network without it?

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#53
IK Obi
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/07/20 16:52:18 (permalink)
The only thing that ever matters is the final song that people hear.

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trimph1
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/07/25 18:28:57 (permalink)
arp arp arp.....
 
I'm only one person in my 'group...of course I use an Arp!! Plus the other one....

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Jay Tee 4303
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Re: Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/07/27 14:43:08 (permalink)
EQ
 With the amount of peoeple on here who play most of the elements that go into their msuic. How do you guys feel about using and arp, is it less authentic then playing it yourself.
ps: give me one of your arp "tricks" you use....



 
If you do it, you are clearly cutting corners in a very unfair way, yes...you are cheating.
 
If, on the other hand, I do it, I am using the subtle advantages of technology to break new ground in the never ending quest for musical expression, and will get an A++ in all the history books for innovation and just plain kewlness.
 
Get ur groove on. Get lost in it. Whatever it takes. Watch whoever is listening. Are they GETTING IT? Can you FEEL it while making THEM FEEL IT, at THE SAME TIME? Are they driving home with the radio off, but still hearing your message, lost in the new and better world YOU turned them on to?
 
If someone who understands tech asks how you did it, do you tell them, or tell them it's classified information....OR...
 
Do you make up some BS to look kewler than you really are?
 
Is George Washington a hero of humanity's endless desire to elevate the importance of the individual, or an opportunistic rebel, in it for power and personal gain?
post edited by Jay Tee 4303 - 2013/07/27 14:47:30

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#56
AIElectro
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Re: Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/08/16 16:00:33 (permalink)
Is using music theory cheating? Go ahead and use whatever form of expression pleases you and who cares what anyone thinks.
#57
lawp
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Re: Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/08/16 17:38:35 (permalink)
Arps ftw
#58
mmorgan
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Re: Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/08/17 09:44:29 (permalink)
In the 70s I used an ARP Odyssey, loved it. Now-a-days I use software based synthesizers/samples and love 'em. I feel no particular compunction to not use appreciators, and will, if the need arises, plug one in. My only concern is how that fits in with the overall song.
 
Likewise, I use synthesizers/samples to plug in, say, some orchestral strings. I can't afford the real thing and again my only concern is how that would fit in with the song.
 
Oddly about the only thing I wouldn't plug in is guitar patches, there I remain steadfastly loyal to the concept that if I can't play it then it won't get played. This may contribute to a lack of technical brilliance on my guitar parts. However I've been known to fudge some playing through the use of open tuning, slowing the tempo down so I can actually play the part, multiple tracks for dicey chord changes, comping, etc. and so on. All of which I consider cheating but TFB.
 
Regards,
 
 


Mike

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#59
nd88
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2018/03/02 01:32:10 (permalink)
Totally understand where you are coming from on the EBM part.  I am very much into alternative electronic/ebm/synthpop and in recent months have been trying to learn at creating pieces myself starting from scratch with no musical knowledge.
 
At first I struggled to understand how a lot of ebm music was produced until I discovered arps and sequencers.  Once I did it all made sense, I stuck a few (ok, a lot!) arps into parts of my recordings and they instantly transformed into something much more familiar..
 
I don't feel it devalues any of the bands I listen to, besides there is certainly a lot more that goes into that genre however I appreciate it can play a huge part in creating that sort of sound.
 

I remember a few years ago demonstrating just that to a friend of mine who was into industrial/ebm music. I loaded an instance of Z3T4 and used the initial arp patch -  the whole chord progression was in there - all I had to do was to push one key w/ one finger. I then quickly added a kick pattern. "That's how you write one of those songs".

Even funnier is the fact that a few months later, one of his favorite bands came out w/ a album and released that same thing as a song - just not in the same key. 



#60
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