Helpful ReplyIs using an arp "cheating"

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EQ
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2013/02/13 14:47:31 (permalink)

Is using an arp "cheating"

 With the amount of peoeple on here who play most of the elements that go into their msuic. How do you guys feel about using and arp, is it less authentic then playing it yourself.
ps: give me one of your arp "tricks" you use....
#1
jamesyoyo
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/13 15:05:21 (permalink)
Of course not. Is using a sim amp cheating? Any vocal processing?
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/13 15:44:27 (permalink)
Depends who you ask. 

A bluegrass musician?  Heck yeah it's cheating.

Most other folk...... nahhhhh ...let it roll.... it's all good. 

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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/13 17:04:59 (permalink)
No, of course it isn't

And even if it was, who gives a .......?

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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/13 17:06:26 (permalink)
It's only cheating if you are pretending to be manually playing every single note. Otherwise, it is just another tool in your arsenal. it certainly will not create talent where it does not exist.
#5
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/13 19:39:46 (permalink)
The first person I ever heard use an arp (well, an analog step sequencer) was Keith Emerson. I've always felt that if it was acceptable to him, then it's acceptable to me, too.

I have in fact used arps myself from time to time. Just for those little splashes of color you sprinkle in as occasional ear candy.

What I really despise, though, are songs built entirely from loops and arps. Nothing wrong with it objectively. Whatever turns yer crank. Just don't call yourself a musician. It's an insult to everybody who's put in the countless hours necessary to become proficient on a musical instrument.


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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/13 19:59:09 (permalink)
Not no, but heck no!  Why on earth would it be cheating.  It's just another tool in our musical toolbox.

Cheers!

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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/13 19:59:25 (permalink)
I always argue for more actual musicianship, though something like an ARP is so much more 'organic' than most of what goes on today that it's almost a different world. I would say that you are probably over-estimating how much of what you hear around is all that actually organic. These days people don't seem to be able to resist using all of the very powerful tools available to make themselves sound far better than they actually are, and the vast over-use of those tools has created a situation in which people feel that they will be seen as amateurish if they don't use them.

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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/13 20:03:18 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Voda La Void 2018/03/02 14:52:30
I guess it depends. Like Bit said, it's one thing to use them to ****e things up, but, if arps and loops become the centerpiece of your music, then, yes I'd consider it cheating.

I remember a few years ago demonstrating just that to a friend of mine who was into industrial/ebm music. I loaded an instance of Z3T4 and used the initial arp patch -  the whole chord progression was in there - all I had to do was to push one key w/ one finger. I then quickly added a kick pattern. "That's how you write one of those songs".

Even funnier is the fact that a few months later, one of his favorite bands came out w/ a album and released that same thing as a song - just not in the same key. 

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#9
SongCraft
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/13 20:31:18 (permalink)
To answer the OP, NO. 

Arpeggiate 'manually' are chords where notes are not played at the same time but rather spread out in sequence usually in a rythmic pattern either to create a percussion sequence or melodically. So in that sense arpeggios performance - playing technique has been around for a very, very long time. 

Whereas Arpeggiators have been around since the 1960's. 

1970's Jean Michael Jarre 'Oxygene' is a perfect example: a more extensive used of Arpeggiators. 

1980's Vangelis Chariots of Fire. 

Nowdays it seems Arpeggiators are still being used and I guess will most likley continue that trend into the next century. 

In the 1980's I had synths that included an Arpeggiator but seriously, I absolutely hate these auto freaks of techno babble because I much prefer to input the notes 'manually' myself precisely how I wanted each note to be played rather than have some auto-sequence of notes dish out something of it own accord. 

post edited by SongCraft - 2013/02/13 20:32:24

 
 
#10
chuckebaby
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/13 20:33:07 (permalink)
it absolutely is,dont fool yourself....what is an ARP anyway?
 
(i was trying my best to make a funny sorry)
i totaly agree with bitflips,if its sprinkled in the sause its great(it can also lead to creative ideas)
but if it is your sause,you become less a musicain and more of a producer in my opinion.
 
i had this thread a while back and i got a lot of negetive feedback from it
it was based around the millenium samplers(loop musicains)i may have hurt some feelings in doing so.
i think its because i have trouble comunicating words to grammer.
what only a few know is i had a major neck surgery and find it difficult to lower my head to see the keys on my computer keyboard.
 
but back to what i was saying,there are a generation of musicains out there that all they do is looping music and find it difficult playing instruments but they have ideas,there is nothing wrong with this,but they're more producers then musicians.
 
post edited by chuckebaby - 2013/02/13 20:45:24

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#11
Rus W
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/13 22:21:03 (permalink)
It's has its place - especially when it's repeated constantly - essentially, a loop, but I think it's unfair in a way to say it's cheating because I don't think anybody expects 16 bars of two chords running arps. When performing, that I'm sure would get tiiring, but the arrangement of said composition comes into play, too.

On the other hand - along with the loop, if you are in the composition phase and get stuck or have an idea for an arp, but unsure how to execute it, use an arp patch/synth. You can then go off that idea tweaking it, but actually taking the time to write it out even if you keep some of the same patterns from the arp patch.

As others have said, the problem lies in using tools as crutches (ie: AT); however, it's more so about not finding different ways to use the tools given? It's not what, it's how! This is true with musicians/performers as everyone may use the same instrument, but every pair of hands that touch it, use it differently! Again, focus on HOW - not what!

This goes for any and everything regarding creativity - whether it's music, movies, tv, books, art! It's ALL art!

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#12
dubdisciple
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/13 23:10:17 (permalink)
I don't think I have ever come across a loop based artist that has made the declaration "I am a musician" anyway, so it's somewhat of a strawman argument. Also the two are not mutually exclusive. There are plenty of trained musicians who use looped based production where it is appropriate. I highly doubt the OP's question( and I could be wrong) was an attempt to justify holding a finger down on an arp preset and calling it a song, yet these threads tend to degenerate into old guys taking pot shots at music they don't like. I'm no spring chicken myself, but it seems kind of silly.
#13
Jeff Evans
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 00:12:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby abacab 2018/03/03 04:13:13
It comes down to the music itself. If you hold down a three note chord and expect the arpeggiator to keep us entertained for ever then it may not and the use of it in this situation could be described as boring at least.

But play the arpeggiator in the most beautiful, creative, interesting and musical way then you have something completely different. Come up with an interesting chord progression with a great melody and use the arpeggiator to enhance the experience then yes you have a totally legitimate use for it and it could be said it is being used in the best way possible. 

Listen to Jarre Oxygen as mentioned already on this thread and you will see it satisfies the second scenario pretty well wouldn't you think. A lot of great electronic music a la Jarre. Klaus Schulze, and Tangerine Dream etc make extensive use of arpeggiators but the music is also great and that is what is really important here. So in the hands of greatness it sounds great. To disqualify it as a tool is simply ridiculous to say the least. 

It is one of things where you have nowhere to hide if your ideas are boring then the arp will sound that way too. You can play an arp like an instrument, it just depends on how you are playing through what chords, timing etc  and what notes you are deciding to arpeggiate over etc..



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Glyn Barnes
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 05:59:30 (permalink)
Just listen to The Who's use of sequenced / arpeggiated synths contrasted against the raw rock energy of the band.

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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 07:29:20 (permalink)
I see zero difference between using an ARP - for whatever purpose - and sequencing drums.

Everything we create is an illusion - it's very rare for a recorded song to consist of a bunch of guys all playing at the same time and with zero processing/overdubs after the fact.

Once you touch that edit button, it's a lie.

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Danny Danzi
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 08:42:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby aglewis723 2013/07/15 15:50:36
I say everything is a "go" if you need it. These tools were made for people to use and if it gets your idea out of your head to where you like what you've done, you made the right choice.

Now, me as a guitar player....I literally play arpeggios in my lead passages. If I were not able to play one up to speed and decided to play the passage extra slow and then have the computer speed it up so it sounds right, I'm cheating and it's unacceptable to ME. If someone that doesn't play guitar like that decides to cheat and do it, by all means it's acceptable...as long as they fess up and say "hey, I wish I could play like that but I can't....so here's what it would sound like if I could!" :)

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#17
EQ
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 09:27:26 (permalink)
First off ( I COULDNT HAVEASKED FOR A BEETER GROUP TO RESPOND :) ).....I love this board. This was jsut a question that popped up while i was reading up on arps.

Second: sorry for seemeing like I left the post (dont have net at the house yet). Well respose, just have to finish read them (and after I knock out this report..lol...work in the way again..LOL)
#18
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 09:28:02 (permalink)
I agree with you on the guitar side of things Danny.

If I can't play a piece that I've written in my head, then I'll simplify it to the point where I CAN play it, it rather than fake it, but as far as synth/keyboard stuff goes, well it's all fair game.

Hell, I can't even drum! But that doesn't stop me from writing complex poly rhythms which my tame drummer (BFD) can play correctly every time

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#19
EQ
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 09:49:48 (permalink)
Whew. awesome feedback. I agree with all of you (all explain the elephant from diff angles too... ;) ).

This was just a something that popped up, and i got to talkign about it with my buddy and before you know it we,re debating musicianship. Playing vs samples. Loops. The whole ball of wax in term of this new age of "cybrog" type production (lol).

#20
AT
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 10:41:17 (permalink)
Of course it is.  If you can't play it live ...  Recording is cheating.  Using a mic is cheating, as well as an electric amp.

a real musician will bang two stones together to make their music.

;-)

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#21
EQ
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 11:07:04 (permalink)
CTFU(LOL) @AT.

Thats right on some caveman boogie ;)
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Beepster
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 11:20:50 (permalink)
I kind of think they're neat but I'm finding a lot of the Arps in Sonar and it's synths take it too far. I'll get a nice little arp effect going after I press a key but I want it to repeat. Instead it goes off and tries to play an entire freaking song. What the heck? lol

Makes them kind of useless to me.
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 11:21:57 (permalink)
AT


Of course it is.  If you can't play it live ...  Recording is cheating.  Using a mic is cheating, as well as an electric amp.

a real musician will bang two stones together to make their music.

;-)

Even better, one time I didn't have any controller hooked up to play drums....I so hate programming. So I grabbed a mic, and started mouthing drum parts. Had kick, snare, hats, toms, ride and crashes. Recorded them all one track at a time....and ran Drumagog on each track....instant drum kit! Hahaha! :)
 
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#24
Beepster
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 11:24:21 (permalink)
lulz... Beatbox Danzi.

;-)
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 11:30:54 (permalink)
Some truth to that actually Beeps...my black friends all say "Dayum Danny, you know you gotta black Grandma somewhere in yo family tree!" Hahaha!

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#26
EQ
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 11:41:38 (permalink)
LOL@ danny...lol Were prob kin then..LOL

But timberland would do that and just layer a kit over top and mix the two. (easier when your dealing with hip hop music which is known for heavy drum parts....but seeing done in person and it come out nice...Still tickles me and is clever as hell...)
#27
amiller
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 11:41:49 (permalink)
Too funny...'shows how old I am
 
I thought you were talking abou this:
 
ARP Instruments, Inc. was an American manufacturer of electronic musical instruments, founded by Alan Robert Pearlman in 1969. Best known for its line of synthesizers that emerged in the early 1970s, ARP closed its doors in 1981 due to financial difficulties. The company earned a reputation for producing excellent sounding, innovative instruments and was granted several patents for the technology it developed.
 

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#28
dubdisciple
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 13:58:59 (permalink)
I guess the proper answer to this is "it's only cheating if your wife is not cool with it". My gf has a don't ask don't tell policy when it comes to arps.
#29
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Re:Is using an arp "cheating" 2013/02/14 14:22:14 (permalink)
HAAHHA @dub

+1
#30
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