It's time for me to learn how to properly export good sounding mp3's w. Sonar. Advice?

tl;dr first and foremost before I prattle on like a bumbleclown.
 
Let's ignore the hubbub going on in that other thread (just bad timing that got zombied right as I decided to get boned up on all this). I want to be able to INTELLIGENTLY prepare my tunes for proper, high quality, best fidelity mp3 exports using Sonar and all its tools (and learn about useful 3rd party stuff that might help but would prefer to remain in Sonar) AND learn about the fundamentals of the actual mp3 export process.
 
Based on what I know so far this is two completely separate steps. 1) Getting the audio output ready for the mp3 format and 2) the actual conversion.
 
This is one of my "totally open" threads where I'm just looking for key topics to research, descriptions of how you guys do it, general info on WTF the conversion is doing to the audio and any other bloody thing that comes along (without getting into some huge debate about the format itself or whatever).
 
So far what I "know for sure" is I can integrate the LAME encoder into Sonar or buy their paid mp3 thingie or use a third party program.  I do "know" quite a bit more than that but it's all sketchy and as recently proven apparently a very contentious and subjective issue... which is likely why I'm still totally fuxxored on the subject (no one seems to agree on anything).
 
So all I need is to know what I gotta do in Sonar/to the wave so the conversion goes well (no clipping/distortion) and best practices/tools for doing the actual conversion. Yes this is likely more of a Techniques tab question but since I'm doing this from Sonar (at least the prep work) I'm posting it here.
 
Have at 'er or read on (blathering incoming, and no it has not starting yet if you can believe that... lulz)....
 
So here's the trip. mp3 is another one of those topics I just always figured would start making sense the more I studied. Most things do... but this hasn't. The more I read about it the more I get confused. I have a HUGE book I found AGES ago on the topic that looks like Tolstoy and Mitchum artificially inseminated a pulp mill. It's really old and honestly I think it's more about coding or something. Based on my frustrated scans of it it sure isn't helpful for just wanting to output good quality files.
 
What I have gleaned from my recent searches is that I need to reduce my Master level much more than I would for a wave export. The number that keeps coming up is -3db (I usually export my waves to -0.1db using a limiter). That number though apparently seems to be some kind of ultimate buffer/safeguard and not REALLY necessary in all cases. Like it's overkill just to make sure dumblef*cks like me don't distort their files.
 
I am also gleaning that the reason for this need for reduction in output volume is that the way mp3 reduces the file size is by removing "quieter" samples from the audio file... thus only leaving the peaks/louder samples of the file which raises the average volume of the entire file (or the RMS which is another subject that confuses the bloody heck out of me).
 
To add to that I also read that sometimes the peaks might increase as well due to two or more "louder" samples (like peaks) getting stacked or jammed too close together which "sums" them and creates a much louder "peak" than the original peaks which then can create momentary clipping/distortion. This concept seemed almost like speculation and depended on the converter/material AND that the distortion/clipping (since only occurring for a single sample or so) isn't really noticeable most times BUT maybe if consistent enough WILL be noticeable.
 
So that's a big point of confusion. How does one decipher how much to reduce to avoid that "summing/peak sample bunching"? Is -3db going to always do the trick and should just be done ALL the time or is it the type of thing that causes other stupidity so should be approached on a case by case basis (I'm assuming it should and the type of thing a mastering house takes into consideration).
 
Then there are different qualities. I'd like to understand a little better what the standards are. I will generally try to use the best quality conversion (which I'm assuming results in larger files due to less orignal data being yanked out). Like does more care need to be taken when prepping the files for mp3 for lower res files? Is there a fixed equation for drive space/per minute of audio like there is for wave files (I'm assuming no and that it is case by case depending on the audio)? What export qualities are standard for various purposes/common applications (for example I think sites like Soundcloud actually convert to mp3 so is there a "standard" to shoot for when uploading to places like that or does it vary)?
 
Then there are the "CODECS"? I think that's what they called the various programs/instructions that do the conversion/compression. I am getting the impression this is likely of HUGE importance so what's the deal with LAME? Is it able to do the best conversions? To specific programs do the job better? Does the Cakewalk encoder work better than LAME (or does it use LAME)? How about PYRO (which I own) or Audacity or Reaper, etc?
 
 
Well... you get the idea. It's just such a large subject for something I always thought was super simple.
 
All I want to do is export to mp3 in a way that will best represent the original files whether it's my own stuff or if I'm ripping my music collection or whatever. Apparently though to do this PROPERLY one needs to actually know a little bit more than how to set up the encoders and choose the mp3 export option.
 
As I said... just looking for facts and anecdotes so I can understand it all better and it could (hopefully) be a good thread to nail down some of this stuff for anyone else getting confused by all this like I am.
 
Cheers, thanks and I hope everyone is having an awesome day.
 
:-)

fif4lifefif
Welp I must admit I skimmed through your post a bit as I have a meeting to get to, but this is a post that I found helpful when looking to maximize the quality of my lossy format work. 

Nowadays, I've gotten great results by working with my mastering engineer to get a "Soundcloud Master," which has a very gentle lowpass rolloff (CRINGE, I know, but it works), and a peak of -1.0 dBFS. 

That is very insightful and covers some of the key stuff I asked about regarding online streaming.
 
I would have marked your post "Helpful" but someone else already beat me to it! lol
 
Thanks, man.
 
Edit: In fact after reading a little more that page really noses it's way into a ton of the stuff that's been messing me up about all this. It doesn't go into massive detail but is giving me a lot of "gateway" terms and concepts. Gonna have to surf around that site some more. Nicely done. Cheers!

fif4lifefif
haha, well thanks for your consideration anyhow! Cheers! 

I oranged ya up on this one to make up for it.
 
;-)

joden
tbh Beep...MP3 was only created because of 1. modem baud rates and 2. storage capability
 
These days with super high speed internet and ridiculously cheap storage, and the fact of being able to have huge amounts of storage on small devices, well, imo  MP3 (and others) are fast becoming obsolete in favour of lossless formats. Being lossless means there is no compromising on your original work. jmo

I totally hear ya, man and I would much prefer a world where 24/48 wave files reigned supreme in the consumer market (that's right... screw 16/44.1) but I gotta make sure I can provide quality files in these "lossy" formats.
 
A lot of my natural audience are/will be "lo-tech" using second hand/low capacity devices and I'll be using streaming services to promote the stuff so gotta make sure it all sounds good there too.
 
Then of course there is my curious nature. I don't mind not knowing EVERYTHING but knowing NOTHING drives me apeballs.
 
lol

As much as I appreciate and respect everyone's opinion on mp3/lossy stuff as a release format I would really like this thread to be about the best ways to prepare and convert audio to mp3.
 
I guess pretend as if all other file formats no longer existed and we can only export to mp3 so we want to examine the best ways to do so.
 
I may be pushing water uphill here and the worms are already out of the can but I am honestly just looking for knowledge/advice/experiences with mp3 stuff.
 
In a perfect world I could just export to wave and that would be that... (or in a perfect Metalocalypse world sound printed to water... lulz). It ain't though so we gotta do what we can to make things sound good.
 
Seriously I think I'm pissing some of my friends off by sending them massive wave files. lulz...
 
Peace.

I know this will sound like poor or casual advice, but there is actually not much behind creating an MP3 file from your project (in Sonar or any other DAW). If you have a good mix/master, your MP3 will be fine. If not, it will sound like crap - because it's coming from a crappy source.

So, I guess the real question behind all your questions is how to create a good mix - and that's a topic well beyond the scope or intention of this thread, so, I'll just leave at that. Good luck!

NeoSoul
My personal question is what is the rationale behind exporting to MP3 within Sonar directly vs taking the exported WAV and then rendering that to MP3 with 3rd party software?  
 
The other question being, are you actually mastering your track in Sonar, if not, exporting seems like a bad idea.

I have many reasons as to why I want to learn these concepts but I don't want those reasons clouding the actual discussion.
 
I am totally fine with using third party software for the final conversion but cannot afford to drop a lot of coin just for mp3 exports. Sonar comes into the equation because that is where I mix and "master" (mastering usually occurs in a new project... not the mix project) and by "mastering" I mean "small m" mastering because I am not a mastering engineer.
 
The preparation for export WILL occur in Sonar (for now). The conversion to mp3 can happen in another program. I currently have Pyro, Audacity, Reaper and if I add the LAME or Cake encoders to Sonar then Sonar for the mp3 conversion.
 
My (or anyones) reasons for exporting to mp3 do not matter. I just want to know the best way to do it with the tools I have access to.
 
Personal preference does not come into the equation at all.
 
See what I mean? I know waves are superior. I know how to prepare and export to wave. I just need to be able to export to mp3 intelligently as well.
 
Kind of like back when I used to do construction. I preferred using screws. Screws are better for almost everything. Still needed to know how use nails though even though they sucked and were a massive PITA.

I mean WHY are you wanting to encode within Sonar vs encoding the export? That is the question.
 
Is there quantifiable evidence that suggests this would produce a better sounding MP3?  
 
Encoding outside of Sonar can be done easily for free.  
 
What you posted suggests you would be encoding the Mix down in a WAV then importing into another Sonar instance for the Mastering, at which time you want to encode to MP3.  Why in the world would you pay for an encoder within Sonar for what is already a Stereo track?  Do you now understand the question?  

NeoSoul
I mean WHY are you wanting to encode within Sonar vs encoding the export? That is the question.
 
Is there quantifiable evidence that suggests this would produce a better sounding MP3?  
 
Encoding outside of Sonar can be done easily for free.  
 
What you posted suggests you would be encoding the Mix down in a WAV then importing into another Sonar instance for the Mastering, at which time you want to encode to MP3.  Why in the world would you pay for an encoder within Sonar for what is already a Stereo track?  Do you now understand the question?  

That is not what I said, nor am asking at all. I understand your question(s). It is not what I am asking for.
 
I'm sorry but you are not understand my question(s) or the purpose of the thread.
 
I am looking for info on best practices to acheive a goal. I don't give a flying fart HOW it happens as long as it provides a good result hopefully using the tools I have available to me.
 

dcumpian
 
This really isn't completely true. Lame is updated fairly regularly and there are a lot of switches that affect the final conversion. However, you really want a good front-end for those switches to make it easier to see what you are doing and experiment with the different settings. Just Google "Lame front end" or use a client like Fre:ac and you'll be able to find the settings you need for various outputs.
 
Regards,
Dan

Now this is helpful. I don't fully understand it but I can look into it. Thanks, Dan.

Beepster......................my (or anyones) reasons for exporting to mp3 do not matter. I just want to know the best way to do it with the tools I have access to.
 
Personal preference does not come into the equation at all.
 
 

 
oky doky gotch Beep  Right well I do use MP3's in my live gigs as backing tracks...so my method is to use the Sonar for anything with fixed rate (128,256,320) and I use Audacity (free)  if I want to create VBR as the Sonartool for some reason gets hung up on those!
 
I create the project, mix it, and then master as well as I can, ensuring I get most of the level meters for all songs at approx the same level, as in my experience, the MP3 conversion can sometimes create louder songs than the one previous even if all things are (relatively) equal.
 
I convert at 320kbps (used to do 256, but one CAN tell the difference in this rate with some songs) and in blind tests with muso m8's and others, I have only ever had one person pick the difference - and even then I reckon they were guessing!
 
So if you get your tune mastered pretty well in wav format, then using a higher rate MP3 should result in a pretty reasonable result. Especially as the end user is listening on less than stellar gear!
 
Dunno if that helps???

joden
 
oky doky gotch Beep  Right well I do use MP3's in my live gigs as backing tracks...so my method is to use the Sonar for anything with fixed rate (128,256,320) and I use Audacity (free)  if I want to create VBR as the Sonartool for some reason gets hung up on those!
 
I create the project, mix it, and then master as well as I can, ensuring I get most of the level meters for all songs at approx the same level, as in my experience, the MP3 conversion can sometimes create louder songs than the one previous even if all things are (relatively) equal.
 
I convert at 320kbps (used to do 256, but one CAN tell the difference in this rate with some songs) and in blind tests with muso m8's and others, I have only ever had one person pick the difference - and even then I reckon they were guessing!
 
So if you get your tune mastered pretty well in wav format, then using a higher rate MP3 should result in a pretty reasonable result. Especially as the end user is listening on less than stellar gear!
 
Dunno if that helps???

Definitely does. Just hearing what others do and gathering up terms and concepts to research further is totally what I'm after.
 
I always poke around the intertoobeys for info on stuff like this but really all my buds here seem to have a way of making things easier to digest (compared to other forums, dry tech manuals or oversimplified bloggy type crud).
 
You tossed some stuff on the pile I would not have been able to look up before without prior knowledge.
 
Thanks.

I always thought this was a good way to go if I ever got really serious about mp3s:
 
http://www.sonnoxplugins.com/pub/plugins/products/pro-codec.htm 
 
Shucks, tho, ILok 2 required :(

With the current trend of actually selling MP3 files. I guess it's good to understand as much of this as possible.

Sadly, I have not gone into it that deeply though I've been getting very good results within the medium's limitations...

I export my mixes as 24/48 and open them into a new Sonar project setup for mastering..

When I'm happy with my mastering I export as 16/44.1 wav as well as (using Sonar's MP3 dialog) a 320 stereo, high quality MP3....

I don't expect them to sound the same, but as long as it seems to resemble the mastered wav file effectively, I'm satisfied. It seems to me that the majority of MP3 files sound less quality due to heavier (lower) bit rates...

I would rather people buy the wav files. I played with modified mixes specifically for MP3 conversion and could force more elegant files, but then they stick out awkwardly in most MP3 collections. So I stopped.

Dropping the gain does give a touch more clarity, but again the offset here of volume wars makes it a moot point knowing that especially with MP3 collections, the listener is not putting on your album and setting playback. The listener is setting playback and hearing playlists.... All need to conform somewhat.

So I've been making my mp3's at -0.3 and continually get praise for my MP3 files sounding good...

If the MP3 sounded as good, they'd gave less reason to buy the album for higher quality, eh? ;-)

They're a hardly medium for passing around work versions of songs and the likes, but though I alliw sale of them I would much prefer to have listeners buying higher quality...

sven450
Again not to minimize the need/desire for quality, but don't overthink this.  Spend time on mixing and mastering and any decent (256 or 320) mp3 will sound fine to everyone.
 
Going down the rabbit hole of different encoders, conversion algorithms and all the blahdeblah is just taking time from where change and quality actual matter:  the song, the mix and the master.
 

That was my point, exactly. Well said.

fif4lifefif
Welp I must admit I skimmed through your post a bit as I have a meeting to get to, but this is a post that I found helpful when looking to maximize the quality of my lossy format work. 

Nowadays, I've gotten great results by working with my mastering engineer to get a "Soundcloud Master," which has a very gentle lowpass rolloff (CRINGE, I know, but it works), and a peak of -1.0 dBFS. 

 
Are you rolling off the lows or Highs?  As I understand a lowpass will roll off the highs. I'm only checking in to make sure I understand what you are doing.