pianodano
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It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
Man this happens once in a while. Tracks fail to respond to widget changes. Todays scenario: Drummer was adding some crash fills. Recorded the 2 crashes using the stereo overheads. Drummer comes into control room and sits down to listen. Asked to have crash hits panned about 40% left and 40% right. So - we have 3 hits in 4 different locations in the song. 1st hit is the 21". 2nd hit is the 17" 3rd hit is the 21". So I insert a pan envelope on the track. Add nodes at proper locations for each hit. Drag envelope up and down to required percentages. So far so good. Hit PLAYBACK. Console pan widget clearly follows pan envelope but the audio doesn't seem to want to oblige. 1st hit sounds pretty close to 30% left. 2nd hit sounds pretty close to 30 LEFT too. Hmmm. 3rd hit is darned close to 30% left. Drummer says, hey - the pan thingy's moving - what kinda crap you using here ? Me all red faced . . . . murmur "well I've seen tracks fail to respond before". Nobody knows why they go dead like this. So I drag the envelope to 100% left on hit 1, 100 right on hit 2 and back to 100% left on hit 3. Hit playback. No love. Pan widget does as expected. Audio stays in left channel. Lord why am I still around. 
post edited by pianodano - 2013/07/18 02:25:10
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bitflipper
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/18 10:11:35
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When using a pan control on a stereo track, how much movement you hear in the phantom image depends on how well-separated the instruments are in the track: the better-separated, the less movement there'll be. The amount of perceived shift can range anywhere from full to weak to imperceptible.
Because of this inherent unpredictability, I think of the pan slider and pan automation as mono-only effects and almost never apply them to stereo tracks.
If you want to pan a stereo track use the Channel Tools plugin instead. Better still, split that stereo track into two mono tracks and pan away.
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pianodano
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/18 10:39:42
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Dave, if I really assume Sonar works as just you have described, can you please explain how that could possibly be acceptable? On a analog console, (at least every last one I have ever used since 1980) if you pan a track hard right, you will hear silence if the left. Conversely in the opposite condition. On that same desk, If I have a stereo bed on say channels 1 and 2 with 1 hard left and 2 hard right and change channel 1 to hard right, the left channel will be silent even though I am feeding a stereo bed (excepting adjacent channel crosstalk). IOW, actual panning should follow relative pan position (sound stage) position, not room mic setup conditions, mostly. Otherwise, what good would they (pan pots) be for any simulated stereo purpose except hard left and hard right on a stereo pair (assuming that's what you had, I suppose) which should then ONLY give the maximum separation that was achieved with the room mic setup when the recording took place? Hope that makes sense. Or am I all wet ?
post edited by pianodano - 2013/07/18 10:57:29
Best, Danny Core I7, win XP pro, 3 gig ram, 3 drives- Lynx Aurora firewire- Roll around 27 inch monitor, 42 inch console monitor- Motif xs controller - Networked P4's and FX Teleport for samples- Muse Receptor VIA Uniwire for samples and plugs- UAD QUAD Neve - UAD 1- Sonar X1 but favor 8.5 GUI - Toft ATB 32 - Vintage hardware - Tascam MS-16 synched via Timeline Microlynx -Toft ATB32 console
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/18 16:22:19
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On a analog console, (at least every last one I have ever used since 1980) if you pan a track hard right, you will hear silence if the left. Conversely in the opposite condition. Yes - because it's a mono track, not stereo, and Sonar behaves exactly as it should with mono tracks and stereo tracks On that same desk, If I have a stereo bed on say channels 1 and 2 with 1 hard left and 2 hard right and change channel 1 to hard right, the left channel will be silent even though I am feeding a stereo bed (excepting adjacent channel crosstalk) Yes - because you're still dealing with 2 mono tracks, even though your source material is "stereo", it's still hitting your desk as 2 different signals and you will quite rightly fade from full on to full off as you sweep from one extreme to the other. Try it on a hardware stereo input - you'll hear what you're hearing in Sonar - the pan control when dealing with stereo tracks isn't really pan at all, it's a BALANCE control. Like Dave says, trying this will cause very unpredictable results, and it'll be the same in any DAW - it's not a Sonar problem.
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pianodano
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/18 17:11:30
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Thanks Jonesey. I believe you and Dave. . . . But . . . I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this concept or perhaps I should say DAW phenomenon . I am also trying to picture the sort of "stereo" hardware input you are referring to that might have a pan control. As far as unpredictability, how is that possible ? Varying signal strength to a output is varying signal strength to a output from what I remember. And how could you guys have possibly discovered your concepts using analog consoles ? So basically, you are both saying that a pan knob is not really a pan (panorama) control. Here's a idea. If it is designed to work as you say it is (in a DAW) how about if the bloody slider was just greyed out in a true stereo track so that any other nitwit like myself could recognize that it is useless in that instance. 
post edited by pianodano - 2013/07/18 17:55:29
Best, Danny Core I7, win XP pro, 3 gig ram, 3 drives- Lynx Aurora firewire- Roll around 27 inch monitor, 42 inch console monitor- Motif xs controller - Networked P4's and FX Teleport for samples- Muse Receptor VIA Uniwire for samples and plugs- UAD QUAD Neve - UAD 1- Sonar X1 but favor 8.5 GUI - Toft ATB 32 - Vintage hardware - Tascam MS-16 synched via Timeline Microlynx -Toft ATB32 console
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pianodano
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/18 17:32:51
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Just to make sure that my last few brain cells didn't die off in the hot sun the other day, I looked your hypothesis up on Wiki. Here
post edited by pianodano - 2013/07/18 17:49:20
Best, Danny Core I7, win XP pro, 3 gig ram, 3 drives- Lynx Aurora firewire- Roll around 27 inch monitor, 42 inch console monitor- Motif xs controller - Networked P4's and FX Teleport for samples- Muse Receptor VIA Uniwire for samples and plugs- UAD QUAD Neve - UAD 1- Sonar X1 but favor 8.5 GUI - Toft ATB 32 - Vintage hardware - Tascam MS-16 synched via Timeline Microlynx -Toft ATB32 console
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bitflipper
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/18 19:47:21
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On all those classic consoles you've been using for the past 30 years, I'll wager that few of them even had stereo channels, or had only a few. This proliferation of stereo-everything is a fairly new phenomenon. (And it's killing the width of mixes, but that's another rant.)
Picture the worst-case scenario: a stereo track where an instrument is only in the left channel. When you pan the track toward the right, the volume of the instrument decreases until it's completely silent. But it never "moved" in the panorama. And you'd be wondering why it wasn't panning.
Now imagine a best-case scenario: a stereo track in which the instrument is equally represented in both channels. Now, when you move the pan knob the instrument's perceived location does indeed change.
Bottom line: the more mono-ish the stereo track is, the better it pans. The more separated the instruments, the less perceived panoramic movement you get.
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pianodano
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/18 21:32:19
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bitflipper
On all those classic consoles you've been using for the past 30 years, I'll wager that few of them even had stereo channels, or had only a few. This proliferation of stereo-everything is a fairly new phenomenon. (And it's killing the width of mixes, but that's another rant.)
Picture the worst-case scenario: a stereo track where an instrument is only in the left channel. When you pan the track toward the right, the volume of the instrument decreases until it's completely silent. But it never "moved" in the panorama. And you'd be wondering why it wasn't panning.
Now imagine a best-case scenario: a stereo track in which the instrument is equally represented in both channels. Now, when you move the pan knob the instrument's perceived location does indeed change.
Bottom line: the more mono-ish the stereo track is, the better it pans. The more separated the instruments, the less perceived panoramic movement you get.
Ok Dave, I'll accept your explanation as to what they have engineered for a DAW. I ain't no physicist. But if I am correctly understanding these explanations , how has the specific "panoramic" location of a instrument on a soundstage become synonymous with stereo imaging which in my mind, has always been more a function of aural perception based on the combined effects of instrument position, room reverberation, echos and the listener's spatial position? I have always understood these to be two fundamentally different concepts though intertwined. Tomorrow I intend to spend a good bit of time with EWQLSO which we all know was recorded in true stereo with multiple mics in front, center and rear. I intend with test number 1 to output the signal (Lynx direct) into the analog console with a pair of channels panned 8&4 o'clock which will give me the widest stereo separation possible. I believe that as I use the Kompakt or EW Play player widget to pan say a trumpet from it's normally staged position to left (audience perception), it will pan and volume will remain somewhat consistent. Maybe 3-4 dB louder at it's recorded position in the hall but not horribly perceptible changes in volume. Test 2 will be done with the EW output printed in Sonar with a pair of convertor channels patched directly into the monitors. I will use the Sonar track pan slider. Perhaps I will measure the dB output levels at engineer's position for comparison.
Best, Danny Core I7, win XP pro, 3 gig ram, 3 drives- Lynx Aurora firewire- Roll around 27 inch monitor, 42 inch console monitor- Motif xs controller - Networked P4's and FX Teleport for samples- Muse Receptor VIA Uniwire for samples and plugs- UAD QUAD Neve - UAD 1- Sonar X1 but favor 8.5 GUI - Toft ATB 32 - Vintage hardware - Tascam MS-16 synched via Timeline Microlynx -Toft ATB32 console
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bitflipper
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/19 09:55:59
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Those EWQL samples were probably recorded via microphone positions much further away from the source than your drum overheads were. Consequently, they're going to be more blurred left-to-right, and probably take panning better. Try your experiments with a violin section, assuming it's conventionally positioned to the left in the panorama. Compare the difference between using the pan knob versus Channel Tools. Depending on the sample, the difference can be dramatic.
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EtherealEntity
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/19 11:45:24
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I've always thought of it this way:
The pan knob on a stereo channel decides a balance of what's going into the channel strip. Turning it to the left doesn't bring what's on the right to the left, it instead seems to go back to the input stage, increase the volume of the left signal and decrease the volume of the right signal.
For actual panning of each side on a stereo channel ,you want to insert plugin Cakewlak Channel Tools, which has a pan fader for each side. Like ProTools, if you've ever used that. It definitely makes much more sense to have TWO pan controls for a stereo channel, like you would on a desk.
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pianodano
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/19 16:57:26
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Well I can give you guys the long version or the short version. Long version will take a while to type all the data so here is the short. Panning works exactly as I anticipated it should in EWQLSO going direct to convertor (LESS Sonar) and into Desk. Can put strings, horns, you name it anywhere using the EW PLAY pan widget. From no signal in left channel to no signal in right. Then I set up a new project and named it panning test. Panning works exactly as I expected it should when EW is inserted in Sonar (Stereo track). Then I set up a automated pan. Pan response functions as it should from hard left (no signal at all in right channel) to hard right (no signal in left channel). Tried close mic positions and hall. Then I inserted a new Stereo enabled track in Sonar. Recorded the same cymbal crashes the drummer played the other day. Nothing changed as far a mic setup. The mics always stay on the drums in the booth. Same overheads. Set up a automated pan envelope. Exactly the same response as with EWQLSO above. Hit the same cymbals. Panning works exactly as is should. Guys I really meant it when I said in the op that I have seen pan positioning fail to respond to the slider and envelopes before. Don't know what gets corrupted but something does. This is about the 3rd time in my Sonar career I have seen this event happen. Buggy.
post edited by pianodano - 2013/07/19 22:16:55
Best, Danny Core I7, win XP pro, 3 gig ram, 3 drives- Lynx Aurora firewire- Roll around 27 inch monitor, 42 inch console monitor- Motif xs controller - Networked P4's and FX Teleport for samples- Muse Receptor VIA Uniwire for samples and plugs- UAD QUAD Neve - UAD 1- Sonar X1 but favor 8.5 GUI - Toft ATB 32 - Vintage hardware - Tascam MS-16 synched via Timeline Microlynx -Toft ATB32 console
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bitflipper
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/20 00:40:57
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That's because the EW pan control is a dual-mono pan like the one in Kontakt, not a balance control like what's in SONAR. It's the functional equivalent of using the Channel Tools plugin, albeit more convenient.
No, it's not a bug in SONAR, just missing functionality. What SONAR needs is a pan mode that internally splits the stereo track into two mono channels and then pans each of them with one slider. Fortunately, the Channel Tools plugin does provide that functionality.
Don't sweat the theory, just leave the pan slider in the center and use Channel Tools to position your stereo tracks. Better still, avoid stereo tracks to begin with (yeh, I know that's not always convenient with sample libraries, but for drum overheads two mono tracks is do-able and a better option).
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/20 02:37:30
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If you are stuck with stereo samples, convert them to audio & bounce down to split mono
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pianodano
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/20 07:36:16
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Dave, Jonesey, It seems like (based on your replies) that what I wrote must not have been understandable (if that's a word). So to reiterate, after all the tests using samples were completed (which does work perfectly using stereo samples Jonesey) . . . I rerecorded the same stereo overheads cymbals in a new project in a stereo track and they pan as they should. Or at least as I expect they should. Can anyone point me to a specific thread or data where Cakewalk discusses that they have improperly functioning pans on stereo tracks ? I hope to learn more about what is wrong.
post edited by pianodano - 2013/07/20 07:55:12
Best, Danny Core I7, win XP pro, 3 gig ram, 3 drives- Lynx Aurora firewire- Roll around 27 inch monitor, 42 inch console monitor- Motif xs controller - Networked P4's and FX Teleport for samples- Muse Receptor VIA Uniwire for samples and plugs- UAD QUAD Neve - UAD 1- Sonar X1 but favor 8.5 GUI - Toft ATB 32 - Vintage hardware - Tascam MS-16 synched via Timeline Microlynx -Toft ATB32 console
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bitflipper
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/20 12:07:26
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I've never seen any mention by CW of "improperly functioning pans on stereo tracks". Just reiterations of the fact that the pan slider functions as a balance control on stereo tracks. Some might consider that improper.
You got me stumped as to why the re-recorded overheads pan differently. Assuming the same mic positions at the same distance and identical processing on the track, the new track should behave identically to the old one. Try loading both tracks side-by-side into a test project and see if they behave differently from one another. If they do, use a correlation meter to compare their stereo-ness.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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robert_e_bone
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/21 19:11:22
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☄ Helpfulby pwalpwal 2015/02/15 07:50:02
Is there any chance there is a different panning algorithm specified between the different projects? I found the following content from WAY BACK in Sonar 6, but I think the same data holds true today: The Pan Laws affect audio in Sonar 6 in the following manner.
*** "w/o track automation" exports, the "Raw Tracks - No Automation/FX" preset was used
so panning does not affect export levels.
*** "with track automation" exports, the "Raw Tracks - No Automation/FX" preset was chosen first
followed by selecting "track automation" in the mix enable list. Panning will affect export levels.
Discussion and Testing Procedure are described at the end of the document.
Last Updated: 02/25/2007
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
0 dB Center, sin/cos taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Mono L 100% +3 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB +3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono Center +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +6 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +6 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
-3 dB Center, sin/cos taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -6 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Stereo Mono Center 0 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
0 dB Center, square-root taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Mono L 100% +3 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB +3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono Center +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +6 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +6 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
-3 dB Center, square-root taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -6 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Stereo Mono Center 0 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
-6 dB Center, linear taper
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center -6 dB -6 dB -6 dB -6 dB -12 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB -6 dB -6 dB -6 dB - 6 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB -3 dB -6 dB -3 dB - 6 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB -3 dB -6 dB -3 dB - 6 dB
Stereo Mono Center -3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB - 3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB + 3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
0 dB Center, Balance Control
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono Center +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Discussion and Testing Method Description
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This chart describes Sonar meter values relative to the peak values of the clips in the tracks and not Sonar meters
compared to exported file levels, although this can be deduced from the data by comparing Playback values to Export
values. In almost all cases the playback (ie Sonar's meter) levels are exactly the same as exported file levels or
are +/- 3 dB different as a result of any stereo->mono conversion and/or pan law.
If you rely solely on Sonar's meters to determine levels and understand stereo->mono conversion then, in general,
you don't have to worry or think about levels. The issues develop when you really want to maintain the original
clip levels such as when exporting raw (and possibly edited) tracks for use in other software. However, since Sonar
is a mixer it will still send the clips through multiple types of processing even when you disable all the options
on the export dialog. The chart describes how clips are affected when exporting them through this minimal and
"unbypassable" set of processing.
There are some cases where center-panned tracks have different levels depending on whether track automation is
selected or not. They are not panned so track automation should theoretically not affect them. These only seem to
occur in the -3 and -6 center pan laws though.
Here is the testing method used to create the tables above:
1. Create 2 short (~30 second) audio files that are (severely) hard limited to have a near-constant peak of -8 dBFS
(for simplicity and easy reproducibility). For the stereo file, both channels should peak at -8 dBFS. These clips
are best created in a separate audio editor. Under theoretical conditions both files should show a peak value of
-8 dBFS.
2. Create project with 8 tracks. Put the mono clips on the 1st four tracks and the stereo clips on the other 4
tracks. Adjust the interleave and panning on the 8 tracks to correspond to the 8 scenarios.
3. Set the pan law.
4. Play back the project, look at Sonar's meter on each track, and compare them relative to the -8 dBFS theoretical
value.
To test the export values:
5. Click Edit->Select->None
6. Open Export dialog, create file name, uncheck all "mix enable" options except fast bounce, choose source as
"Tracks". Do not alter sample rate from the original sample rate of the clips.
7. Choose file type and check automation as appropriate
8. Export the files
9. Open the 8 individual files in an audio editor and read/record the peak value in the file relative to the
theoretical -8 dBFS value.
Repeat starting from step 3 for testing the other pan laws.
Again, the chart values are relative so for example, +3 dB = -5 dBFS and -3 dB = -11 dBFS, etc. With good naming of
tracks and export files along with competency with an external audio editor the process can be simplified and
streamlined. In fact, every value in the chart could probably be verified in under 60 minutes once the project and
clips are setup.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a thought - I also did a quick read to begin with (sorry about that)
Bob Bone
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pianodano
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/21 19:30:40
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I will be back in the studio in the morning and will take up Dave's suggestion. I have no idea why anything in the 2 overhead recordings would have changed from one project to the next. Mics always stay in the same channels in the board, same locations in the booth. The Channels are sent to the board busses (groups) so that output level may have changed but I do not see how that could affect the stereo field.
Thanks Robert for the lookup and post. I vaguely remember panning discussions re several versions over the years. I seem to remember Greg Henderschott had something to say about it. I need to study your post but I am somewhat confused because it seems to relate to exporting audio. But that's just fist glance.
Best, Danny Core I7, win XP pro, 3 gig ram, 3 drives- Lynx Aurora firewire- Roll around 27 inch monitor, 42 inch console monitor- Motif xs controller - Networked P4's and FX Teleport for samples- Muse Receptor VIA Uniwire for samples and plugs- UAD QUAD Neve - UAD 1- Sonar X1 but favor 8.5 GUI - Toft ATB 32 - Vintage hardware - Tascam MS-16 synched via Timeline Microlynx -Toft ATB32 console
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/23 10:10:19
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I don't think the various panning law options have changed for many years in Sonar.
Does your board have a polarity/phase inverse switch? Check that both tracks are set the same way.
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
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bitflipper
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/23 10:45:49
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Pan laws only affect loudness compensation (left and right) as the track is panned, not the ratio of left to right, which is what determines the track's virtual location in the panorama.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Cactus Music
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/23 10:53:57
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Overall I just wonder why you would use a stereo track at all. As Dave said way back, use 2 mono tracks.
The only thing I ever use a stereo track for is when importing a clip or a whole song.
I could also see if I recorded the output of a hardware synth or guitar processor I might use stereo. But I would most likely use 2 mono tracks there as well.
Think about the old tape based machines. 4, 8, 16 or 24 mono tracks. All returning to a desk with all mono channels.
Best if each mike has it's own mono track.
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pianodano
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/23 13:25:29
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Cactus Music
Overall I just wonder why you would use a stereo track at all. As Dave said way back, use 2 mono tracks.
The only thing I ever use a stereo track for is when importing a clip or a whole song.
I could also see if I recorded the output of a hardware synth or guitar processor I might use stereo. But I would most likely use 2 mono tracks there as well.
Think about the old tape based machines. 4, 8, 16 or 24 mono tracks. All returning to a desk with all mono channels.
Best if each mike has it's own mono track.
Based on what I am seeing I agree. When I set up the Overheads, it was just a natural thing to capture the stereo room sound also since it is a nice sounding room. But I am thinking from here on out, all mono. I still have no explanation for why the recording/clip will pan in one project but not the other. Inquiring minds want to know.
post edited by pianodano - 2013/07/23 16:14:42
Best, Danny Core I7, win XP pro, 3 gig ram, 3 drives- Lynx Aurora firewire- Roll around 27 inch monitor, 42 inch console monitor- Motif xs controller - Networked P4's and FX Teleport for samples- Muse Receptor VIA Uniwire for samples and plugs- UAD QUAD Neve - UAD 1- Sonar X1 but favor 8.5 GUI - Toft ATB 32 - Vintage hardware - Tascam MS-16 synched via Timeline Microlynx -Toft ATB32 console
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pianodano
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/23 13:28:17
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bitflipper
Pan laws only affect loudness compensation (left and right) as the track is panned, not the ratio of left to right, which is what determines the track's virtual location in the panorama.
I understand pan rules/laws are focused on the amount (in dB's) gain/loss as a signal is panned from center. Like the 3dB rule (I think that is the Sonar default. No?) I believe SSL uses 4.5dB because they are normally installed in nearly perfect rooms. Choosing the rule to use is also directly related to the control room acoustics. Is that not correct?
post edited by pianodano - 2013/07/23 14:33:41
Best, Danny Core I7, win XP pro, 3 gig ram, 3 drives- Lynx Aurora firewire- Roll around 27 inch monitor, 42 inch console monitor- Motif xs controller - Networked P4's and FX Teleport for samples- Muse Receptor VIA Uniwire for samples and plugs- UAD QUAD Neve - UAD 1- Sonar X1 but favor 8.5 GUI - Toft ATB 32 - Vintage hardware - Tascam MS-16 synched via Timeline Microlynx -Toft ATB32 console
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pianodano
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/23 13:36:10
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Bristol_Jonesey
I don't think the various panning law options have changed for many years in Sonar.
Does your board have a polarity/phase inverse switch? Check that both tracks are set the same way.
Yes I have a phase switch on each channel. Mics are in phase. Fwiw, So it is clear to all, I am using on the drums the following mics: SM57 on snare. AKG D112 on kick - inside. Front head is off and kick is wrapped in a moving blanket. the 3 Sennheiser 421's on toms. Pair of Shure SM81's on overheads at about 7'6"" high and approximately 4' apart. (awesome mics for the money, btw) I do not mic the hats with their own mic. Overheads and snare mics pickup plenty of hi-hat. Pres used are the board's channel pre amps. The board is a Toft ATB 32. Here's a pic.: Toft ATB 32
post edited by pianodano - 2013/07/23 14:56:19
Best, Danny Core I7, win XP pro, 3 gig ram, 3 drives- Lynx Aurora firewire- Roll around 27 inch monitor, 42 inch console monitor- Motif xs controller - Networked P4's and FX Teleport for samples- Muse Receptor VIA Uniwire for samples and plugs- UAD QUAD Neve - UAD 1- Sonar X1 but favor 8.5 GUI - Toft ATB 32 - Vintage hardware - Tascam MS-16 synched via Timeline Microlynx -Toft ATB32 console
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bitflipper
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2013/07/23 18:08:07
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☄ Helpfulby meh 2013/07/27 09:34:19
The question Cactus posed was: why ever use a stereo track? I can think of only two reasons: either you're dealing with a prerecorded stereo sample, or you want to be sure to maintain the precise relationship between the two microphones as recorded, throughout the process.
As for why SSL chose the -4.5db center, I'm guessing it's just a compromise between the two most-common pan laws, -3db and -6db. On hardware consoles, the pan law is usually fixed, determined by resistors soldered in place. One group of people prefers -3db center, another group likes -6db, so the manufacturer says here ya go: -4.5db. That'd be my guess, anyway.
IMO the "correct" pan law is either -3db center, or no correction at all. The former emulates how sound really moves through real space, the latter accepts that it's not a real space at all and therefore real-world rules need not be applied.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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ericphilo
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2015/02/15 10:43:54
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Channel tools cured it! Thanks all.
Eric X3 Studio Windows 8.1 64 bit HPE HP 180t Intel Core i7 920@2.67 Ghz 12Gb RAM GeForce GTX 260 Yamaha Motif XF8 M-Audio Fast Track Pro
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ericphilo
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Re: It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan
2015/02/15 10:48:48
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whoops spoke to soon. The guitar track that was correctly recorded in stereo is now choosing to manifest on the left channel. So of course I injected Channel Tools into the problem, which didn't help.
By the way, X3 crashes regularly upon transport start.
Eric X3 Studio Windows 8.1 64 bit HPE HP 180t Intel Core i7 920@2.67 Ghz 12Gb RAM GeForce GTX 260 Yamaha Motif XF8 M-Audio Fast Track Pro
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