bapu

Jonbouy

That is just my experience and I never put anybody off that was keen to widen my mark-up. 

Your early keeness shows through even today

Exactly, drummers are particularly good at getting the best margins out of guitar players.

It's what they do best.

There's a guitar shop owner not far from where I live who's handled all the top line guitars for over 35 years.  He quit carrying Gibsons after ol Henry took em over and created the "way overblown" pricing structure that...natch...seems to be working like a charm.  On a recent visit he told us he has dropped Fender as well and "would never sell another Fender guitar as long as he lives" due to their constanly degrading quality and inconsistency and totally un-understandable or defensable pricing policies.  "They are all a bunch of crap no matter where they come from now", he said, "I won't have em".  YMMV.

spacey

drewfx1


You could probably also make (and sell) a few thin laminates out of a single thicker piece of premium wood you need for a carved top.

??
I'm failing to see what I can do has to do with what Fender is doing. You lost me.
 

A carved top requires a much thicker piece of wood than a thin laminate. You can see on the natural masked quilt maple top on my strat here:



It's only maybe 1/8" - 3/16" thick or something like that.

A carved top requires maybe 3/4" or something so you can carve away and still leave 1/8" at the lowest point.

Looking at the Fender Select prices, MF charges an extra $350 for a carved maple top vs. flat maple top tele.

Which is probably ~$200 more than Warmoth would charge you for the same difference.

Drew....I know the difference. I'm surprised you'd think I didn't.
So I can assume that you believe the cost difference of a Deluxe and
a Select is worth $750.00.... the top plate requires (and I'll use
my measurements) a 5/8" thick laminate.
Realize that I've compared the price of a deluxe with NO laminated top plate.
( which is usally 1/4").

So real simple....a deluxe for $1,750.00 or a select with a carved top for an
additional $750.00.

Not sure where you're coming from or going Drew but the prices and the products
are what they are.

And as I stated earlier- if you believe that the top plate is worth $750.00...that's good
enough. I'm just pointing out that is what one will pay Fender to get it.

I wonder how much more they'd charge to scratch up the paint a bit?

spacey


Drew....I know the difference. I'm surprised you'd think I didn't.

I wasn't sure what you were asking me earlier so I answered. 

Not sure where you're coming from or going Drew but the prices and the products 
are what they are.

And as I stated earlier- if you believe that the top plate is worth $750.00...that's good
enough. I'm just pointing out that is what one will pay Fender to get it.

Not worth $750 more, but maybe half that (depending on the top), which is sort of where I was going.


But it's Fender, and once you get to the point where people are willing to pay $1500+ for a guitar and then more on top of that for mostly cosmetics, they can overcharge.

And I don't think the inlays on a Martin D-45 are worth thousands of dollars more than a similarly constructed HD-28 either.

It seems that if people are willing to pay more for mostly cosmetic stuff, some people will pay a lot more  for something they find even prettier.

Drew I agree that some people will sure pay extra for mods but
doesn't this seem like an extreme example?

Naturally I think it is extreme but I question if it is...that's why I posted.
I imagined others would give feedback about their thoughts.

Something I sure want to know. When I carve out one it would be nice to
know I can add $750.00 to it and feel it's normal. :)

Mike I don't know if you noticed and I'm not sure when they started but they
did get their act together on the bridge/pickup plate.

Notice the "fences" around it are gone- they were cheap stamped and in the way
for finger-pickers and the really great thing- the two extra mounting screws (neck side)
Major plus with that too.

Michael really your thoughts are exactly the same as mine as outlined in my first post here, albeit perhaps from a differnt point of view.

The difference between the cheapest clunker end and a top end hand crafted instrument is a still a complete mystery.

Exactly the reasons you've stated because it is a 'Fender' and therefore they can get away with a $750 charge solely for that extra layer is what I was originally talking about that fuels the mystery involved.

When somebody used to bring a guitar in for trade and asked me "What is this worth?" my reply would always be straight and the same one. "Whatever I can get for it less my cut".

I'd then ask "What does it play like?" and for some reason they'd largely tell me exactly what was wrong with it.

Lastly I would enquire how much they wanted for it with a figure in mind of how much I'd be prepared to give.  If it was above that figure I'd politely decline and inform them they would be better off selling somewhere else.

Buying new from trade is (was) pretty much exactly that same process.

spacey


Drew I agree that some people will sure pay extra for mods but
doesn't this seem like an extreme example?

Naturally I think it is extreme but I question if it is...that's why I posted.
I imagined others would give feedback about their thoughts.

I don't know. I think $1750 for an ash tele with no figured top or anything else that's particularly special or "deluxe" is already extreme. So I guess that's why it doesn't surprise me as much.

Jonbouy


Michael really your thoughts are exactly the same as mine as outlined in my first post here, albeit perhaps from a differnt point of view.

The difference between the cheapest clunker end and a hand crafted instrument is a complete mystery.

Exactly the reasons you've stated because it is a 'Fender' and therefore they can get away with a $750 charge solely for that extra layer is what I was originally talking about that fuels the mystery involved.

When somebody used to bring a guitar in for trade and asked me "What is this worth?" my reply would always be straight and the same one. "Whatever I can get for it less my cut".

I'd then ask "What does it play like?" and for some reason they'd largely tell me exactly what was wrong with it.

Lastly I would enquire how much they wanted for it with a figure in mind of how much I'd be prepared to give.  If it was above that figure I'd politely decline and inform them they would be better off selling somewhere else.

Buying new from trade is exactly that same process.

 
I can sure understand your view.
There are "things" that make nicer guitars nicer to the player. I believe that many player will agree
that some things are desired for the guitar to function correctly for them and the extra price is justified.
A very good example is Johns' post mentioning switching out some hardware upgrades. A very smart way to
improve ones guitar at a savings.
 
Naturally I can appreciate the finer woods and the extra effort to prep rather than than just painting but I think
I've presented an example of it being abused. I'm really surprised too. I've been very glad that Fender didn't
start going nuts with their prices back when Gibson did. They probably could have but didn't.
I hope they correct this as I truely feel it's a bad mistake and at the least a bad way to treat their customers.
 
I'd really like it if somebody from Fender would explain the reasons for the pricing of this particular model guitar.
Maybe they could provide information that would make it understandable as I feel now that it's not just me realizing
that it's not right.

I did make a guess earlier....it very well may be that the Empress wood and the additional cost of a carved top is
why. I know it's some most excellent wood and I can't get it- yet.

There are "things" that make nicer guitars nicer to the player. I believe that many player will agree that some things are desired for the guitar to function correctly for them and the extra price is justified. A very good example is Johns' post mentioning switching out some hardware upgrades. A very smart way to improve ones guitar at a savings.

Of course I understand this aspect, although you can be forgiven for persisting in thinking I don't...

I didn't make a business out of selling guitars without listening to what the players were saying, and noticing which guitars would regularly end up on the floor stands after constantly being taken down from the wall hangers and then working out why.  I also made sure I the best people around to do the required work.

As a luthier and player rightly your focus is on the product, as a salesman mine would be largely on the buyer AND the seller.

None of us can have a good understanding of the process of arriving at a right price without taking into account the important aspects of both things.

$750 for the extra cosmetics is only too much if they ain't shifting, if they are then Fender have no need to justify it to anyone. Like I've already said it's worth is "Whatever I can get for it" no more, no less.

The key to good business is to keep everyone happy, like I also said earlier if somebody offered me a guitar for more than I was prepared to pay I'd not argue with him I'd simply decline and let him find somebody that was prepared to pay that price.  Very often he would come back and we could talk sensibly if he didn't then good luck to him.

An interesting thread on a very complicated subject. I maintain that the big companies are selling their high end stuff to support their bread and butter at the bottom of the price line. I've seen it with private builders so I'm sure that big companies are doing it.

A rapidly increasing cost of living has got to be a factor. When you ship globally, fuel costs are a big factor as are labour costs. It seems like the guitar builders continue to jump from location to location in search of the cheapest workers possible. This puts variation into the quality and increases costs for warranty and replacement. The same could be said for materials and it all has to be financed in some way.

Relics as a concept, was the invention of rich people. Making something new, look old, is expensive if you do it right. If you don't do it right anyone that knows their gear will spot it a mile away.

For us to expand our thoughts about the value of guitars, their parts, whether or not
they are CNC or custom built can make something simple, complicated.

I've made it a point to be very specific about the construction and pricing of two
specific guitars made by the same company.
These two guitars have one distinct difference other than the price. They are both
Telecaster models.

My original reason to post was to get opinions about the pricing of the "Select"
model when one compares it to the "Deluxe" model -to state my opinion based on
what I know and ask if I've overlooked any known differences.
Nothing more, nothing less.

Other than the carved flame maple top on the "Select" I've learned that it also has
a body made from Empress wood. It's the first I've known about Fender using it.

That made the differences of the two models to be the carved top and the body wood
as the only known reasons for a price increase of $750.00. (unless somebody can
state other pertinent differences of the two)

I feel that it's one of the craziest things Fender has done in the last 30+ years that
I've been playing them.

Oh...it comes with a badge on the back of headstock. A difference but hardly worth the
mention really.