Just an opinion or two..

brought about by reading about Fenders new "select" models.
 
I don't understand their pricing. At least not in the sense of not only what is offered
but in comparison to their other offerings of the same model.
 
For instance- the select Tele with carved Koa top - $2,499.00
                      the deluxe Tele-$1,750.00
?? What in the world makes up the $750.00 difference?
 
In my opinion at $2,499.00 one has reached an amount that enters the custom luthier range
IMO.
I would expect much more than an exotic top plate for that amount of money. Ok, it has a compound
radius fretboard too....?....well so does the deluxe. How about that? The 1750 for a deluxe compared to the standard-what justifies that diff...a compound fretboard?-Locking tuners?
 
Well if somebody can tell me something about the guitars that can explain the pricing I'd like to hear it.
 

I was going to get a custom shop Tele but after playing on a bunch I found one for half the price that has"that" sound. I already had a custom shop Strat

Bill, "select" isn't "custom shop". I think you missed my point but that's Ok.

I have a custom shop mary kaye closet classic 56 (?) strat reissue.  I have an american standard too.  The custom shop is way better.  

space_cowboy


I have a custom shop mary kaye closet classic 56 (?) strat reissue.  I have an american standard too.  The custom shop is way better.  

Do you have a "Select" model? If so I guess you felt that an additional $750.00 (over the deluxe) was worth it to have an exotic wood top plate.
 
 

acah cakraoawo rrhuahwhwohoworcwo craroc acah.

Wookiee


acah cakraoawo rrhuahwhwohoworcwo craroc acah.

I could not have said it better. :) I'm going back to my home planet now...bye.

Just like my post count, dollars matter not to space_cowboy when buying instruments.

You know Spacey, I've wondered about this myself. I recently bought the finest Les Paul I've ever played and it was half the price of the model that I thought I wanted. A $2,000 price difference. The more expensive model had upgrades that I was able to purchase and install myself for another $600.

Two guitars, one costs $3,995 the other $1,995 + $600. The only remaining difference is the expensive model has a 1 piece body, while the cheaper model has a 2 piece body. Is it worth $1,500 to upgrade to a one piece body? Not in this case. The fit, finish and tone of the cheaper model was superior.

I don't think this is a common occurance but it illustrates the point I'm trying to make. Cost is no guarantee of quality and the market is full of artificial price points based on subtle changes to a basic concept. IMO guitar companies create the higher price points for people that have the money to pay for a higher status instrument. If they didn't do that I don't see how they could continue to practically give them away at the bottom of the price scale.

It's probably due to the carved top. Maybe a thin veneer flat top costs much less?

I know for Warmoth bodies, the carved tops are a much bigger upcharge than just a figured (flat) top.

You're probably right.
They use CNC to keep building cost down. Extra 3 minutes of machine work...BAM 750 bones! Managers gotta love that.

You could probably also make (and sell) a few thin laminates out of a single thicker piece of premium wood you need for a carved top.

I'm loving my £50 chunk of solid timber.

I'd pay top bucks for something Spacey built because I can see the value of that individual kind of craftsmanship.

Anything in between strikes me as a complete mystery. 

Always has even when I was a dealer and I knew what I could sell at what people were likely to pay for it.

Mostly people will decide something plays and sounds better once they've seen a name.  Not all the time but mostly.

I think the 'select' range I wouldn't have had in stock, they'd have been 'special order'.

drewfx1


You could probably also make (and sell) a few thin laminates out of a single thicker piece of premium wood you need for a carved top.

??
I'm failing to see what I can do has to do with what Fender is doing. You lost me.
 

 IMO a person really wants that name and style badly and isn't very phased by the sticker price to buy that Koa guitar.

 Why would anyone buy this ???>>

http://www.musiciansfrien...-relic-electric-guitar

 To me this is on par with the *artists* who blow what looks like a psychedelic turd onto a canvas and call it art.

 

 

Jonbouy


I'm loving my £50 chunk of solid timber.

I'd pay top bucks for something Spacey built because I can see the value of that individual kind of craftsmanship.

Anything in between strikes me as a complete mystery. 

Always has even when I was a dealer and I knew what I could sell at what people were likely to pay for it.

Mostly people will decide something plays and sounds better once they've seen a name.  Not all the time but mostly.

I think the 'select' range I wouldn't have had in stock, they'd have been 'special order'.

Thank you Jon.
 
I think most evaluate what they are getting. The real problem that I'm mentioning is
that Fender has decided to price a very nice guitar at an unreasonable price.
 
One simply cannot justify $750.00 for an exotic wood top plate ONLY. If they can it sure
must be something I'm missing.
 
"Carved" doesn't mean squat in a factory made guitar. It's just minutes to the machine.
The price of exotic wood is a factor but much less of one to a large business such as Fender.
 
There are NO additional features to consider when comparing the "Select" to the "Deluxe" other
than the top plate of wood.
There isn't $750.00 worth of wood in the whole guitar!
 
I've been here a long time and many of you know that I've never raised a stink about what
manufacturers charge for their guitars. Our talk bad about cheaper guitars. I feel this is very different and very wrong so I thought I'd raise a flag for any that may be considering the "Select" model. Watch out. Unless I may find reasoning that I'm unaware of (if there is) it is a rip-off.
 

I think most evaluate what they are getting.
The real problem that I'm mentioning is that Fender has decided to price a very nice guitar at an unreasonable price.

One simply cannot justify $750.00 for an exotic wood top plate ONLY.
If they can it sure must be something I'm missing.

I get that part that's why my buyers instinct would prevent me from holding stock.

One mans Koa top is another mans garish nightmare and for the extra bucks involved I wouldn't have gone near them as a dealer.

But there's always somebody prepared to throw good money away thinking it equates to better value, or something extra above a bit of laminate.  And I'd cater to him with a 'special order'.

That is just my experience and I never put anybody off that was keen to widen my mark-up.

Diseconomy of scale?

mike_mccue


Diseconomy of scale?

You think?

I personally think its just the standard cash in on the "Kewl, me too and pimp me up" principal.

Or the greater fool theory?

It could be both, easily. It's something other that the product.

I'm wishing I'd said nothing. I have/had no intention of bad-mouthing Fender nor
a "Select" owner.

Please note the price I quoted wasn't only for the Koa top model.
Also a special note; Empress wood is used for some of the bodies. I saw one with
Empress, Flame Maple neck and Flame top plate. Most excellent and beautiful.

Empress is wonderful wood. I wish I could get it. I don't need any Phoenixs landing
but still....so if some spring...who am I to say if it's a rip? Just wish they didn't cost
so much because I wouldn't mind owning one or two. :)

Starise


 IMO a person really wants that name and style badly and isn't very phased by the sticker price to buy that Koa guitar.

Why would anyone buy this ???>>

http://www.musiciansfrien...-relic-electric-guitar

To me this is on par with the *artists* who blow what looks like a psychedelic turd onto a canvas and call it art.

Did you read the article? They claim that "Custom Strats" are "Ferrari's" LOLOLOLOLOLOL...


Noooo.... Custom Strats are like Custom Chevy's: way too much for too little... People will indeed pay large sums of money for products that do not actually have the value. And, I am sorry, but what kind of loser buys a new guitar that has no pedigree but looks like it does? Does he/she then tell the world that some bullsheet story of  how "I set it on fire during a concert at the MGM grand in Vegas"? I mean, WTF.... its like a fat man in a track suit holding a doughnut and diet coke... not fooling anyone.

Jonbouy

That is just my experience and I never put anybody off that was keen to widen my mark-up. 

Your early keeness shows through even today

I hesitate to enter the discussion, but yes, I do think that when a company enjoys an economy of scale by purchasing boatloads of pre-graded lumber it precludes the opposite practices. e.g. Sending an employee out to the storage area to hand inspect and "select" a board, no matter how un-special it really is, becomes an activity that occurs at a wholly different scale of economy.

The same goes for the CNC machining. The companies may invest heavily in CNC machines to achieve consistent results, but this precludes custom shaping because setting up the work holding clamps/jigs on the machine table and writing the custom G-code for the new shape takes a lot longer than simply carving a one off example with powered hand tools.



Fender may sell a bunch... or this "select" category may fall flat on it's face. At least the Fender guys will know they didn't dip in to their existing economy of scale savings to explore the chance. It seems like they simply tack on all the extra costs, and then quadruple that to get to retail pricing and put the stuff out there for the market to consider.



I like to buy used guitars made out of good pieces of wood. It suits my economy of scale... :-) I let the other guy take the big depreciation hit and then I consider if the used price is something I find reasonable.



Anyways,


best regards,
mike



edit spelling

Starise

Why would anyone buy this ???>> 

http://www.musiciansfrien...-relic-electric-guitar

You just spoiled my wedding gift to the Conquistador.


Now, where do I get those Mary Poppins eyes?

foxwolfen


I mean, WTF.... its like a fat man in a track suit holding a doughnut and diet coke... not fooling anyone.

I wonder how many members are now ticked off at you for that comment...  LOL!

I almost choked on my doughnut and now I have a annoying diet coke stain on my Adidas.

mike_mccue

I like to by used guitars made out of good pieces of wood. It suits my economy of scale... :-) I let the other guy take the big depreciation hit and then I consider if the used price is something I find reasonable. 

Not a bad philosophy. I know a guy who does that with cars. Has not owned a new car in over 30 years. Always has a 3-5 year old car in top shape. Buys it for a song. Drives it, with proper maintenance, until it dies. Does it all over again. He prefers BMWs and Merecedes (he's in sales).

mike_mccue


I almost choked on my doughnut and now I have a annoying diet coke stain on my Adidas.

+1.978965764753474

To me this is on par with the *artists* who blow what looks like a psychedelic turd onto a canvas and call it art.

Hmmm, I suddenly feel inspired to do something creative this weekend.

bapu

Jonbouy

That is just my experience and I never put anybody off that was keen to widen my mark-up. 

Your early keeness shows through even today

Exactly, drummers are particularly good at getting the best margins out of guitar players.

It's what they do best.

craigb

foxwolfen


I mean, WTF.... its like a fat man in a track suit holding a doughnut and diet coke... not fooling anyone.

I wonder how many members are now ticked off at you for that comment...  LOL!

My horoscope warned me to "not be over the top" today... so what do I do?


Over the top! Jeeze. *rolls eyes at self*

There's a guitar shop owner not far from where I live who's handled all the top line guitars for over 35 years.  He quit carrying Gibsons after ol Henry took em over and created the "way overblown" pricing structure that...natch...seems to be working like a charm.  On a recent visit he told us he has dropped Fender as well and "would never sell another Fender guitar as long as he lives" due to their constanly degrading quality and inconsistency and totally un-understandable or defensable pricing policies.  "They are all a bunch of crap no matter where they come from now", he said, "I won't have em".  YMMV.

Does that mean no Guilds, Gretsches, Charvels, Jacksons, Ovations, Takamines, Hamers, Tacoma, Orpheums, Olympia, or Squiers too?

Those are all "Fender" brands now a days.

spacey

drewfx1


You could probably also make (and sell) a few thin laminates out of a single thicker piece of premium wood you need for a carved top.

??
I'm failing to see what I can do has to do with what Fender is doing. You lost me.
 

A carved top requires a much thicker piece of wood than a thin laminate. You can see on the natural masked quilt maple top on my strat here:



It's only maybe 1/8" - 3/16" thick or something like that.

A carved top requires maybe 3/4" or something so you can carve away and still leave 1/8" at the lowest point.

Starise


 IMO a person really wants that name and style badly and isn't very phased by the sticker price to buy that Koa guitar.

Why would anyone buy this ???>>

http://www.musiciansfrien...-relic-electric-guitar

No way. lol

I love strats, but to me the point is to find "yours" among them all, the one that's unique - even if there's millions of them. Stevie Ray Vaughan had his strat, Gilmour has his, Malmsteen has is, Blackmore, Hendrix a few of them. That's the cool thing - to take something that generic and to make it unique and yours. 

If it happens to be an older one so be it, if it's brand new all the better. A worn out strat looks amazing, but w/o the story, that look is worth nothing.

It's like hiring catalog models to sit in for you and your lady on your wedding pictures because they know how to pose for photographers.

Looking at the Fender Select prices, MF charges an extra $350 for a carved maple top vs. flat maple top tele.

Which is probably ~$200 more than Warmoth would charge you for the same difference.

Warmoth standard Alder Tele with laminate top = $250

Warmoth carved top Alder Tele with laminate top = $390



$140 extra to carve the laminate top.


If you don't want a laminate top the carve top up charge is much lower.
$175 or $240 for solid alder. The carved top is a $65 up charge.

best,
mike

Drew....I know the difference. I'm surprised you'd think I didn't.
So I can assume that you believe the cost difference of a Deluxe and
a Select is worth $750.00.... the top plate requires (and I'll use
my measurements) a 5/8" thick laminate.
Realize that I've compared the price of a deluxe with NO laminated top plate.
( which is usally 1/4").

So real simple....a deluxe for $1,750.00 or a select with a carved top for an
additional $750.00.

Not sure where you're coming from or going Drew but the prices and the products
are what they are.

And as I stated earlier- if you believe that the top plate is worth $750.00...that's good
enough. I'm just pointing out that is what one will pay Fender to get it.

spacey


Drew....I know the difference. I'm surprised you'd think I didn't.
So I can assume that you believe the cost difference of a Deluxe and
a Select is worth $750.00.... the top plate requires (and I'll use
my measurements) a 5/8" thick laminate.
Realize that I've compared the price of a deluxe with NO laminated top plate.
( which is usally 1/4").

So real simple....a deluxe for $1,750.00 or a select with a carved top for an
additional $750.00.

Not sure where you're coming from or going Drew but the prices and the products
are what they are.

And as I stated earlier- if you believe that the top plate is worth $750.00...that's good
enough. I'm just pointing out that is what one will pay Fender to get it and only that-between a Deluxe and a Select...UNLESS somebody can point out something else the
Select has to offer over the Deluxe.

I wonder how much more they'd charge to scratch up the paint a bit?

mike_mccue


I wonder how much more they'd charge to scratch up the paint a bit?

Mike this is the guitar I mentioned with the Empress body wood, Flame Maple neck and Flame Maple
carve top.
 

spacey


Drew....I know the difference. I'm surprised you'd think I didn't.

I wasn't sure what you were asking me earlier so I answered. 

Not sure where you're coming from or going Drew but the prices and the products 
are what they are.

And as I stated earlier- if you believe that the top plate is worth $750.00...that's good
enough. I'm just pointing out that is what one will pay Fender to get it.

Not worth $750 more, but maybe half that (depending on the top), which is sort of where I was going.


But it's Fender, and once you get to the point where people are willing to pay $1500+ for a guitar and then more on top of that for mostly cosmetics, they can overcharge.

And I don't think the inlays on a Martin D-45 are worth thousands of dollars more than a similarly constructed HD-28 either.

It seems that if people are willing to pay more for mostly cosmetic stuff, some people will pay a lot more  for something they find even prettier.

spacey

mike_mccue


I wonder how much more they'd charge to scratch up the paint a bit?

Mike this is the guitar I mentioned with the Empress body wood, Flame Maple neck and Flame Maple
carve top.
 

I thought so.

I can't believe they have the balls to charge that much and then make you go buy your own pick guard.

I like the 3 layer tortoise shell plastic.


:-)



best,
mike

Drew I agree that some people will sure pay extra for mods but
doesn't this seem like an extreme example?

Naturally I think it is extreme but I question if it is...that's why I posted.
I imagined others would give feedback about their thoughts.

Something I sure want to know. When I carve out one it would be nice to
know I can add $750.00 to it and feel it's normal. :)

I like the 3 layer tortoise shell plastic.

American tortoise shell plastic or Taiwanese?

It matters.

Taiwanese works better with a 'British' sounding Eq.

Mike I don't know if you noticed and I'm not sure when they started but they
did get their act together on the bridge/pickup plate.

Notice the "fences" around it are gone- they were cheap stamped and in the way
for finger-pickers and the really great thing- the two extra mounting screws (neck side)
Major plus with that too.

Jonbouy

I like the 3 layer tortoise shell plastic.

American tortoise shell plastic or Taiwanese?

It matters.

Taiwanese works better with a 'British' sounding Eq.

I hadn't considered the eq. but it didn't matter because it would be used on a carved top
because now the torch marks to heat and fit is just a cool thing. No worries.

Michael really your thoughts are exactly the same as mine as outlined in my first post here, albeit perhaps from a differnt point of view.

The difference between the cheapest clunker end and a top end hand crafted instrument is a still a complete mystery.

Exactly the reasons you've stated because it is a 'Fender' and therefore they can get away with a $750 charge solely for that extra layer is what I was originally talking about that fuels the mystery involved.

When somebody used to bring a guitar in for trade and asked me "What is this worth?" my reply would always be straight and the same one. "Whatever I can get for it less my cut".

I'd then ask "What does it play like?" and for some reason they'd largely tell me exactly what was wrong with it.

Lastly I would enquire how much they wanted for it with a figure in mind of how much I'd be prepared to give.  If it was above that figure I'd politely decline and inform them they would be better off selling somewhere else.

Buying new from trade is (was) pretty much exactly that same process.

I had not noticed the improvement you speak of but I can appreciate it greatly because last week I was playing my late model Tele finger style and thinking "why is this thing digging into my palm and irritating me".

True Story.


best regards,
mike

spacey


Drew I agree that some people will sure pay extra for mods but
doesn't this seem like an extreme example?

Naturally I think it is extreme but I question if it is...that's why I posted.
I imagined others would give feedback about their thoughts.

I don't know. I think $1750 for an ash tele with no figured top or anything else that's particularly special or "deluxe" is already extreme. So I guess that's why it doesn't surprise me as much.

Spacey, I think what you are observing is that any thing made with a technology that no longer has any technological shortcuts that can be hidden from the consumer while the companies cut costs seems to be rising in price faster than I ever seen it happen.

I am having some house wiring done and I was shocked at how much the bid was... my contractor understood my reaction and took the time to show me how his supply costs for wire and basic stuff has jumped up remarkably in the past year.

It's coming, and it's gonna be ugly because we have all spent the past 15 years finding cheaper bargains at the big boxes.

I'm afraid it's all over.

The guys at Best Buy tried to sell me a generic Dynex house brand 1/8" to 1/8" cable for $14.99 last week. I was shocked and then disgusted to think that this is how they plan to pay the bills for the air conditioning.

I'm seeing it all over the place.


best regards,
mike

Jonbouy


Michael really your thoughts are exactly the same as mine as outlined in my first post here, albeit perhaps from a differnt point of view.

The difference between the cheapest clunker end and a hand crafted instrument is a complete mystery.

Exactly the reasons you've stated because it is a 'Fender' and therefore they can get away with a $750 charge solely for that extra layer is what I was originally talking about that fuels the mystery involved.

When somebody used to bring a guitar in for trade and asked me "What is this worth?" my reply would always be straight and the same one. "Whatever I can get for it less my cut".

I'd then ask "What does it play like?" and for some reason they'd largely tell me exactly what was wrong with it.

Lastly I would enquire how much they wanted for it with a figure in mind of how much I'd be prepared to give.  If it was above that figure I'd politely decline and inform them they would be better off selling somewhere else.

Buying new from trade is exactly that same process.

 
I can sure understand your view.
There are "things" that make nicer guitars nicer to the player. I believe that many player will agree
that some things are desired for the guitar to function correctly for them and the extra price is justified.
A very good example is Johns' post mentioning switching out some hardware upgrades. A very smart way to
improve ones guitar at a savings.
 
Naturally I can appreciate the finer woods and the extra effort to prep rather than than just painting but I think
I've presented an example of it being abused. I'm really surprised too. I've been very glad that Fender didn't
start going nuts with their prices back when Gibson did. They probably could have but didn't.
I hope they correct this as I truely feel it's a bad mistake and at the least a bad way to treat their customers.
 
I'd really like it if somebody from Fender would explain the reasons for the pricing of this particular model guitar.
Maybe they could provide information that would make it understandable as I feel now that it's not just me realizing
that it's not right.

I did make a guess earlier....it very well may be that the Empress wood and the additional cost of a carved top is
why. I know it's some most excellent wood and I can't get it- yet.

:-)

I just went and read some forestry web sites about the Empress tree.

Some folks say it's a invasive weed tree, and it seems as if there is a surplus of standing timber because many people planted it thinking there was a bigger market then there seems to be.

I'll bet Fender got a smoking hot deal on a train load of it for next to nothing.

:-)

There are "things" that make nicer guitars nicer to the player. I believe that many player will agree that some things are desired for the guitar to function correctly for them and the extra price is justified. A very good example is Johns' post mentioning switching out some hardware upgrades. A very smart way to improve ones guitar at a savings.

Of course I understand this aspect, although you can be forgiven for persisting in thinking I don't...

I didn't make a business out of selling guitars without listening to what the players were saying, and noticing which guitars would regularly end up on the floor stands after constantly being taken down from the wall hangers and then working out why.  I also made sure I the best people around to do the required work.

As a luthier and player rightly your focus is on the product, as a salesman mine would be largely on the buyer AND the seller.

None of us can have a good understanding of the process of arriving at a right price without taking into account the important aspects of both things.

$750 for the extra cosmetics is only too much if they ain't shifting, if they are then Fender have no need to justify it to anyone. Like I've already said it's worth is "Whatever I can get for it" no more, no less.

The key to good business is to keep everyone happy, like I also said earlier if somebody offered me a guitar for more than I was prepared to pay I'd not argue with him I'd simply decline and let him find somebody that was prepared to pay that price.  Very often he would come back and we could talk sensibly if he didn't then good luck to him.

I played a $599 North American made Martin guitar today with High Pressure Laminate back and sides, solid wood top, built in tuner and Fishman pre-amp, hardshell case ... lifetime Guarantee.  Best sounding Martin I ever heard and the neck felt fantastic.


I've played quite a few superb sounding guitars lately under $800.

I see no reason to buy a guitar anymore that costs over a grand. We can talk about wood, craftsmanship, yadda yadda, all day long, but reality is, the player is going to have more of an effect on the sound of the guitar than the guy who made it ...

An interesting thread on a very complicated subject. I maintain that the big companies are selling their high end stuff to support their bread and butter at the bottom of the price line. I've seen it with private builders so I'm sure that big companies are doing it.

A rapidly increasing cost of living has got to be a factor. When you ship globally, fuel costs are a big factor as are labour costs. It seems like the guitar builders continue to jump from location to location in search of the cheapest workers possible. This puts variation into the quality and increases costs for warranty and replacement. The same could be said for materials and it all has to be financed in some way.

Relics as a concept, was the invention of rich people. Making something new, look old, is expensive if you do it right. If you don't do it right anyone that knows their gear will spot it a mile away.

Making something new, look old, is expensive if you do it right.

I can set fire to anyones guitar if they want, I use real flames and I only charge £3000 for this service.  This is the real deal, no faux burn marks here that's why I can't do it cheap.  It is great value though.

I can't say fairer than that.

For us to expand our thoughts about the value of guitars, their parts, whether or not
they are CNC or custom built can make something simple, complicated.

I've made it a point to be very specific about the construction and pricing of two
specific guitars made by the same company.
These two guitars have one distinct difference other than the price. They are both
Telecaster models.

My original reason to post was to get opinions about the pricing of the "Select"
model when one compares it to the "Deluxe" model -to state my opinion based on
what I know and ask if I've overlooked any known differences.
Nothing more, nothing less.

Other than the carved flame maple top on the "Select" I've learned that it also has
a body made from Empress wood. It's the first I've known about Fender using it.

That made the differences of the two models to be the carved top and the body wood
as the only known reasons for a price increase of $750.00. (unless somebody can
state other pertinent differences of the two)

I feel that it's one of the craziest things Fender has done in the last 30+ years that
I've been playing them.

Oh...it comes with a badge on the back of headstock. A difference but hardly worth the
mention really.

spacey


These two guitars have one distinct difference other than the price. They are both
Telecaster models. 

Careful!  Statements like that one can get you elected!