Just out of curiousity...

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AxlBrutality
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2011/05/21 23:46:57 (permalink)

Just out of curiousity...

I just bought a new laptop and have MC5 (download) installed on it.  Just so you guys know my specs:

Computer: Acer Aspire 5253 Laptop
OS: Windows 7 64-Bit (Home Premium)
Processor: AMD C-50 (1 GHz)
RAM: 2 GB
HD: 217 GB
Soundcard: Conexant (stock)

I have a couple of questions. Right now I am running in MME (32-bit) driver mode.  Is there a different driver mode you would suggest (the other modes I have obviously being ASIO, WASAPI, and WDM/KS), why, and what's the difference?  I would like to note that I have been having a few audio dropout/skipping issues, even after adjusting the latency and buffering.  Nothing overbearing, but surely annoying from time to time.

Also, I noticed that the MC5  download came with a TON fewer audio plugins than MC4.  Would I be able to copy those plugins from the plugin folder of MC4, 32 Bit on my other computer and have them work in MC5 on a 64 bit system?  I've noticed some plugins transfer and cooperate easily but others won't work and/or cause MC5 to freeze if they aren't specifically 64-bit (for example, KarmaFX free plugin pack).

Also, has anyone figured a workaround for enabling the Stereo Mix/What You Hear recording option in Windows 7 for Conexant soundcards, since Conexant (and from what I hear, a lot of other cards) don't support that feature? (And apparently Conexant specifically refuses to provide driver support/development for other manufacturers/customers. Lame).  The only workaround I can figure out is to run from the headphone/line out straight into the line in, but then you don't have monitoring ability unless you have a splitter jack to plug headphones/speakers into simultaneously.  Kind of a pain. Lol.

So yea, any input, suggestions, observations welcome :)  Thanks guys.



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    Beagle
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    Re:Just out of curiousity... 2011/05/22 02:22:07 (permalink)
    Processor AMD C-50 = 1GHz?  you sure about that?  we haven't been at that low of a speed in quite a while.

    If WASAPI is available for your onboard soundcard then I'd try that it might help reduce your stuttering and dropout.  also increase your latency using the latency slider, move it to the SAFE side will also reduce stuttering and dropout.

    you can install both MC4 & MC5 on the machine and you can use either one of them with full benefit of using all plugins and softsynths from either one. but I don't know anything about KarmaFX.  MC4 & MC5 both should run in 32bit mode on the 64 bit machine, tho as well as all the plugins that came with each.

    there should be a what you hear option in the windows sound mixer, but if not, there's nothing you can do except what you're doing.

    I'd suggest you get a USB soundcard and that will solve a lot of the problems you're having with latency (stuttering and dropout) as well as give you the ability to do what you hear.  not all soundcards have this feature - I've yet to find one on my $550 soundcard software, but a lot of them do.  check my website for some USB soundcard recommendations.

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    AxlBrutality
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    Re:Just out of curiousity... 2011/05/22 03:22:00 (permalink)
    "Processor AMD C-50 = 1GHz?  you sure about that?  we haven't been at that low of a speed in quite a while."

    Lol yup.  One of its less than endearing qualities.  I bought the laptop out of convenience and necessity, but wasn't exactly thrilled about the processing speed, and was slightly confused as to why a brand new computer would have such a weak processor. I'm about to see if it's integrated or not, because if it isn't, I will definitely be upgrading the processor.

    "there should be a what you hear option in the windows sound mixer, but if not, there's nothing you can do except what you're doing."

    Nope. Conexant pretty much fails at that game.  I will eventually be upgrading my soundcard, and hopefully I can find one that resolves that issue amongst others.  Otherwise, I'm stuck using an 1/8" Y splitter and running from my line out to both speakers/headphones and also back into my line in.  I was just curious if anybody had found a driver or workaround for it.

    "If WASAPI is available for your onboard soundcard then I'd try that it might help reduce your stuttering and dropout. "


    It is, but it lacks the full range of frequencies that MME supports with my soundcard. Same with WDM.  Also, upon further review, my soundcard doesn't support ASIO drivers.  Lol.

    "also increase your latency using the latency slider, move it to the SAFE side will also reduce stuttering and dropout."

    Yea, I had already gone in and adjusted my latency, and it helped somewhat. Also cleared my picture cache and a bunch of other little tweaks I've learned work with MC, dating back to MC 2003. (Not my first rodeo here, lol.) I'll have to see if it continues to be a persistent problem. If it does, I strongly suspect my lack of processing power as a main culprit.  If so, I won't be able to do anything about it really until I upgrade my processor.










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    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:Just out of curiousity... 2011/05/22 07:07:26 (permalink)
    What do you mean by "WASAPI lacks the full range of frequencies that MME supports"?
    Surely you can't mean actual audio frequencies???

    MME is anyways the weakest driver there is. Using that many get dropouts and crackling even with powerfull PCs. If you mean WASAPI/WDM have less sample rate/ bit depth options, then don't care. 44,1 kHz/16 bits is all you can expect to use fluently with your rig, and it's also sufficient qualitywise. The underpowered CPU and soundcard will give you headaches, no doubt, but you'll be able to create workarounds that makes multitrack recording possible.

    No integrated soundcards support ASIO, AFAIK, but some work nicely with ASIO4ALL (free download).

    I doubt if upgrading the processor of a laptop is that easy...?

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    Beagle
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    Re:Just out of curiousity... 2011/05/22 08:04:41 (permalink)
    well, I searched it for you and I think you're incorrect.  the Acer Aspire 5253 has a 2.1GHz AMD E-350, not a C-50.  The C-50 is a netbook processor.

    http://www.amazon.com/Acer-AS5253-BZ684-15-6-Inch-Laptop-Black/dp/tech-data/B004ETLO6W/ref=de_a_smtd

    and I agree with Kalle - what do you mean by WASAPI lacking full range of frequencies?  that's a pretty strange statement.  where did you get this information?

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Just out of curiousity... 2011/05/22 14:08:23 (permalink)
    The FX and VST's from MC4 should be available in MC5.....and vice versa..... simply run the plug in manager and add the folders in MC4 to it's scan list, then run the scan. I have both MC4&5 and the stuff in each is available in both. I run MC5 stuff in MC4 all the time.

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    AxlBrutality
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    Re:Just out of curiousity... 2011/05/22 20:24:37 (permalink)
    "well, I searched it for you and I think you're incorrect.  the Acer Aspire 5253 has a 2.1GHz AMD E-350, not a C-50.  The C-50 is a netbook processor."

    BZ481 Submodel; and it does indeed have the C-50 processor.  It was originally intended for their netbooks, but apparently they put it in a few of their more inexpensive notebooks as well:



    "I doubt if upgrading the processor of a laptop is that easy...?"

    Depends on the laptop and what kind of motherboard it has...as well as how much work you're willing to put into it and whether or not you know what you're doing. But yea, most laptops, if you want to do any processor/motherboard modification, it takes a lot of tearing things apart.  We just got done doing it to another laptop of ours.  Lol.  After some research today, however, unfortunately my processor is nearly impossible to upgrade.  I'm probably just going to trade it in for one with a better processor.

    Also, it looks good on paper, and others have suggested it, but now I'm starting to wonder....wouldn't running out of my line out and back into my line in create a feedback loop?  I haven't tried it yet, so I don't know, but yea.

    "MME is anyways the weakest driver there is. Using that many get dropouts and crackling even with powerfull PCs. If you mean WASAPI/WDM have less sample rate/ bit depth options, then don't care. 44,1 kHz/16 bits is all you can expect to use fluently with your rig, and it's also sufficient qualitywise."

    Yea, that's what I meant. And yea, that makes sense.  Sorry, I'm sick as hell and doing my best to think/communicate clearly.  Lol.

    Also, I do have a bit of a problem that I was wondering if any of you had a solution.  I'm having issues getting MC5 to recognise VST effects.  I got it to recognise my w1 limiter and EQ31, but I have a variety of other effects that it simply won't recognise.  I've made sure that Cakewalk is pointing to the correct plugin folders, and they are indeed VST effects that are (supposedly) Win 7, 64 Bit compatible.  I've already done a clean uninstall/reinstall of MC5, and I've tried putting them in both the regular program files and also in the x86 program files, to no avail.  So, uh, yea.  Help. Lol.


    Also, after switching to WASAPI, MC quit playing back MIDI sounds.  I switched back to MME, and I got MIDI sound back.  So, um, yea?  Not sure what's going on there....do the WASAPI drivers not support MIDI or what?

    And on one final note, how do i get the meters in Mc5 to show exactly where the signal is peaking at (numerically and in real time)?  I thought it did it by default in MC4 (console view), but I'm not seeing it in MC5 and I'm not seeing any options other than expanding/shrinking the overall range of the meter.

    I know, I'm just full of stupid questions. :(



    post edited by AxlBrutality - 2011/05/22 22:02:44

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    57Gregy
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    Re:Just out of curiousity... 2011/05/23 00:25:06 (permalink)
    I'm having issues getting MC5 to recognise VST effects. I got it to recognise my w1 limiter and EQ31, but I have a variety of other effects that it simply won't recognise. I've made sure that Cakewalk is pointing to the correct plugin folders, and they are indeed VST effects that are (supposedly) Win 7, 64 Bit compatible. I've already done a clean uninstall/reinstall of MC5, and I've tried putting them in both the regular program files and also in the x86 program files, to no avail. So, uh, yea. Help. Lol.

     
    But MC (all versions) is not 64-bit compatible. Try running MC in 32-bit compatibility mode. That might help.
     
    Also, after switching to WASAPI, MC quit playing back MIDI sounds.  I switched back to MME, and I got MIDI sound back.  So, um, yea?  Not sure what's going on there....do the WASAPI drivers not support MIDI or what?

    I assume then that you are using the Microsoft GS Wavetable Synthesizer to hear MIDI. On most systems, it will only work in MME driver mode. But I think the software synthesizers included with MC sound better then the Wavetable synth.
     
    And on one final note, how do i get the meters in Mc5 to show exactly where the signal is peaking at (numerically and in real time)?  I thought it did it by default in MC4 (console view), but I'm not seeing it in MC5 and I'm not seeing any options other than expanding/shrinking the overall range of the meter.

    In my programs, there is a peak meter that sort of hangs there until a new peak is reached and a numerical value for that peak. Are you not seeing that?
    From SONAR Home Studio 6:
    Peak Hold
      Decay Rate (msec/dB)--When Hold Peaks is enabled (see Changing the Meters' Display), this setting describes how fast the peaks fall after the established Hold Time. Hold Time (msecec)--When Hold Peaks is enabled (see Changing the Meters' Display), this setting describes for how long peaks will sit still before dropping
    Sorry I don't have any MCs to paste from on this computer, but it should be similar.

    Greg 
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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Just out of curiousity... 2011/05/23 08:22:22 (permalink)
    Be sure you are running MC5 in 32 bit mode as Greg mentioned. It will not run like it's supposed to in 64bit.

    Then be sure you have added all the VST's and FX to the plug in manager's scan list and run the scanner.

    MC5 should run every plug and synth you throw at it. I have not installed one single plug or Synth yet that has not run correctly in both my MC4 and MC5.

    The folder you point the scanner to should...MUST, contain the DLL file for the plug or the synth. I've had a few that created more than one folder and until I realized that little tidbit of info, I had a few problems getting them to run. Once I moved the DLL or re-directed the scanner to the correct folder, all was good.

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    AxlBrutality
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    Re:Just out of curiousity... 2011/05/24 02:06:17 (permalink)
    1a) How do you run MC5 in 32 bit mode?  I see options to run in in compatibility mode for previous versions of Windows (Vista SP2, XP SP3, etc. etc.) but not an option to run it in 32 bit mode.  Also, will it run in 32 bit mode okay on a 64 bit machine??

    1b) Just for giggles, I ran MC5 in compatibility mode for a couple of different versions of Windows and tried to rescan, but they either a) still won't show up, or b) show up, but in the DirectX Media Objects folder...and they still don't show up so I can access them via right clicking in the effects bin on the track.  Do I need to go back and download the 32 Bit versions of the effects? (Because remember, I downloaded the 64 bit versions of the VSTs, because I was running in 64 bit, which is what my OS is).

    Just to clarify, yes, they are VST effects, yes, I have MC pointing to the correct folder, and yes, they are the .dll files.

    "I assume then that you are using the Microsoft GS Wavetable Synthesizer to hear MIDI. On most systems, it will only work in MME driver mode. But I think the software synthesizers included with MC sound better then the Wavetable synth. "

    Yea, I am.  I do my drum mapping manually, note for note, in the piano roll view, and don't know how to do that with any other synth.  The reason I do that is because I largely play technical death metal, and therefore HATE using loops because I build rather complex drumlines with tons of transitions and random parts...and usually using loops from other programs is a pain in the ass....and that's if I can even find loops that I can use/want to use. So I would rather take the time to build my own songs hit for hit. It's actually easier for me.  So if I can still map drums out using the PRV but with other synth sounds in cakewalk (and thus have better sounds and have it work in other driver modes), and you can tell me how to do it, you would be my HERO for life.

    Also, about the metering thing, what I was saying is that in the console view, MC would actually show, numerically, where the highest peak so far has been ( -1.3, - .03, 1.0, etc.) on the meter, in addition to the meter itself.  That way you didn't have to guess by visual judgement where the meter itself was at in relation to the scale on it.  It would actually say "-.3" on it, until you cleared the peak or the peak changed.  In MC5, at least by default, I don't have that....I just have the meter itself.  Sorry I don't have MC4 installed anymore on my other comp or I would post screenshots of what I'm talking about, lol.


    I'm sorry I'm such a pain guys...I know I ask a lot of dumb questions, but it seems that I have the most constant, stupid problems lol.  The dumb thing is, I'm ProTools and Logic certified, I went to school for this ****, but Cakewalk products give me the smallest, stupidest problems and make me feel like an idiot. Lol.  And I know half of you guys are laughing at me :P

    Thanks so much for your help guys.





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    #10
    57Gregy
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    Re:Just out of curiousity... 2011/05/24 10:31:53 (permalink)
    No, we're not laughing. Some problems folks have are specific to particular machines and we have to suggest different things that we think might help.
    I don't have MC 5 so I can't look to see if I have similar behavior with the meters; maybe Beagle or Guitarhacker can check that, or anyone else who has MC 5.
    To run it in 32-bit emulation mode, you right-click the MC icon and either set it to run in compatibility mode for a specific OS or let in 'Troubleshoot Compatibility' and let the computer set it up. As far a using 64-bit VSTs, maybe downloading the 32-bit versions will help them run in MC 5.
    I run the 32-bit version of SONAR Home Studio 6 on a 64-bit computer without problems.
    You can still use MME when writing drum tracks, or use a software synthesizer in WDM/WASAPI/ASIO.

    Greg 
    I am selling my MIM Fender Stratocaster HSS, red and black. PM for more details.

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    AxlBrutality
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    Re:Just out of curiousity... 2011/05/24 23:51:37 (permalink)
    Yea, apparently MC5 only recognises 32 bit VSTs, even on a 64 bit system....because that worked for me. Problem solved.

    Also, that's what I was thinking, just using MME mode for building my drum tracks and switching to Wasapi/WDM/Whatever for everything else.

    And yea, MC seems to be running fine and is fairly stable on my 64 bit system....was just having issues with the compatibility of the VSTs apparently.

    And, something that just made my day entirely better, my loving fiance bought me a new laptop today, with a much better processor....new specs in signature :) Still completely stock, but a lot better than what I had, haha.

    Related question: Anybody have any objection to Lexicon USB interfaces?  The Omega, Lambda, etc?

    By the way, thanks so much for the help and input guys.



    post edited by AxlBrutality - 2011/05/24 23:52:40

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    57Gregy
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    Re:Just out of curiousity... 2011/05/25 00:12:43 (permalink)
    Related question: Anybody have any objection to Lexicon USB interfaces? The Omega, Lambda, etc?

     
    No objections but some folks who have posted here with Lexicon devices seem to have some trouble getting them set up and/or running reliably (see the recent thread by Sirena Delmar). Research, research, research.
    Focusrite works fine for me (and others) and M-Audio devices seem to work well, too.
    Whatever you decide, make sure it isn't "plug and play", has ASIO drivers and is compatible with your OS. Oh, and has enough of the inputs you need, like mic, line, direct-in for guitars, MIDI if you have a keyboard and phantom power for when you get that nifty new condenser mic.
    Regardless, MC will only record 2 tracks simultaneously even if the interface is capable of outputting 40 tracks.

    Greg 
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    #13
    AxlBrutality
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    Re:Just out of curiousity... 2011/05/25 22:18:31 (permalink)
    Yea, I've been eyeballing some of M-Audios stuff...the relationship between Digidesign and M-Audio has always spoken for itself in my eyes, especially with the professional versions of ProTools...I just wasn't sure how well they worked with Cakewalk software.

    And yea, I'm well aware of the disasters of most "plug and play" so-called recording interfaces.  Lol.  However, I'm not exactly knowledgeable as to the differences between different drivers, including ASIO.  I now know that MME is cheaper and slightly more instable, and that you guys tend to prefer WDM/KS, WASAPI, and ASIO, but I'm not really privy to the differences between the latter three....maybe you could elabourate?

    I'll keep that in mind as far as Lexicon goes; it just seemed the Omega specifically was exactly what I am looking for at this point in time.  I'll have to research M-Audio's interfaces and see if they have something similar.

    "Regardless, MC will only record 2 tracks simultaneously even if the interface is capable of outputting 40 tracks."

    This I did not know; thanks.  It's not of huge consequence to me right now, as I'm only recording my own stuff and I usually only record a single track at a time (if I need to, I simply duplicate the track and use different effects and such for a fuller effect, or to emulate different mic placements and such).  But in the future, I will definitely need that for recording other people's stuff as I have in the past...which, I'm assuming, X1 has more of a multitrack capacity (something like 64 tracks?)  I haven't looked into it too much yet, though I do see myself upgrading here in a month or two after we move into our new house (priorities, you know. Lol).





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    #14
    57Gregy
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    Re:Just out of curiousity... 2011/05/25 22:33:12 (permalink)
    And I have to edit myself a little after reading my words from you.
    MC is only capable of recording 2 inputs at a time, either 2 mono tracks or 1 stereo track.
     
    The techicalities of each of the driver modes is beyond my pay grade, but ASIO is an audio driver developed by Steinberg for high-quality audio recording and reproduction, and it works well for me.
    WDM is a Windows audio driver, newer and better that MME, another Windows audio driver, and can be used effectively for many folks with fast processors and some tweaking.
    MME is the oldest, slowest, least efficient audio driver, okay for streaming mp3s from the internet or audio from YouTube or playing CDs on the computer.
    WASAPI is the newest Windows driver. Supposedly better than WDM, but I've yet to encounter it. Another member here tried it out and said it worked well for his trial.

    Greg 
    I am selling my MIM Fender Stratocaster HSS, red and black. PM for more details.

    Music Creator 2003, MC Pro 24, SONAR Home Studio 6 XL, SONAR  X3e, CbB, Focusrite Saffire, not enough space.
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    #15
    AxlBrutality
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    Re:Just out of curiousity... 2011/05/25 22:49:33 (permalink)
    Ah, gotcha.  Either way, the immediate consequence to me is the same, haha.

    I'm assuming ASIO4ALL will work with my soundcard (stock Realtek HDD card, supports WDM, which I noticed is a requirement to run ASIO4All)...and I'm assuming ASIO4ALL is similar enough to actual dedicated ASIO drivers to be worth trying?



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    #16
    57Gregy
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    Re:Just out of curiousity... 2011/05/25 23:02:11 (permalink)
    ASIO4All has helped many people overcome crippling latency. It's a 'wrapper' for the WDM driver that makes it work like a true ASIO driver. In Theory.
    If you decide to try it out (go ahead, it won't hurt) remember to uninstall it before installing true ASIO drivers if/when you do get an audio interface.
    Which brings me back to the Omega.
    Looks like a pretty good device. Others here use them, but this from their FAQ section would be a deal-breaker for me:
     

    Omega :

    Question:

    I do not have an eLicenser number in my Syncrosoft License Control Center.

    Answer:

    Please contact Lexicon support at (801) 568-7567 between the hours of 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM (M-Th) and 8:00 AM to 3:00 PM (F) mountain time.

    You may also send us an email using the online support request form here: http://www.lexiconpro.com/support_assistant.php

     
    I don't know what the elicenser is for, the device or the software that comes with it, and there's no other mention of it in the literature that I could find.

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    #17
    AxlBrutality
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    Re:Just out of curiousity... 2011/05/25 23:11:03 (permalink)
    I'll give ASIO4All a whirl and see how it does.

    As far as the eLicenser issue goes, from what I can tell, it's mainly a problem with Cubase software that comes with Lexicon products, or Cubase software that people use with Lexicon.  Not really seeing that it's an issue with the hardware itself.  I'll look into it more before I buy though.  Definitely thanks for the heads up :)

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    #18
    RobertB
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    Re:Just out of curiousity... 2011/05/25 23:13:31 (permalink)
    ASIO4All is definitely worth trying, if your onboard card supports WDM.
    I was thrilled with what it did for my old Soundblaster Live.
    If you do get a sound card/interface with its own ASIO drivers, be sure to delete ASIO4All, as it can interfere severely with the native drivers.
    On the Lexicon units, the only one I have dealt with directly was the Lambda.
    It was a competent unit, but to me, its major drawback was the absolute minimum latency of 20ms(using its native ASIO drivers).
    That's right at the threshold of perception for most humans.
    I can't hear 16ms, 19 maybe, but I can definitely hear 20, and it is somewhat distracting.
    I routinely record tracks using VST effects and soft synths in real time, and staying under that threshold is vitally important.
    I don't demand 2ms ( may be more important for vocalists), but for instruments, if I can stay in the 14-18ms round trip range, I'm good.
    The Lexicon units are all USB1, and that may be the bottleneck.
    If I were looking at a USB device, I would lean toward M-Audio, or possibly the Cakewalk/Roland UA25.
    post edited by RobertB - 2011/05/25 23:20:45

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    #19
    AxlBrutality
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    Re:Just out of curiousity... 2011/05/25 23:46:20 (permalink)
    Yea, I noticed Cakewalk had an interface that I glanced over; I may take another look at that.

    I did not know that the Lexicon units are USB 1 though; that in and of itself may actually deter me from using them....plus, like you, I don't necessarily need 2ms latency, but at least sub-20 would be necessary for me (in part because I'm a picky vocalist/lead guitarist when it comes to recording).

    Well, I've been messing around with ASIO4All for about ten minutes, and so far the only objection I have with it is that I couldn't hear any sound originally, and after some research I found someone that had a similar issue using it with Reason...he solved it (and so did I) by actually disabling the speakers in playback devices.  The drawback is that I have to do that every time I use MC, and then I have to re-enable it every time I exit so that everything else using sound on my computer works properly.  Lol.



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    #20
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