Helpful ReplyJust play like a piano

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katinka
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2012/08/08 17:06:07 (permalink)

Just play like a piano

 I bought a Roland a-500s to play/practice piano while I am on the road (I travel lot!). I would call myself an intermediate piano player. I have a 'real' piano at home that I play regularly. I have never had a 'synthesizer' before and I overwhelmed (really really!) by all this new SONAR LE and A-500s options. I have Sonar LE installed on a Windows 7, 64-bit. I really don't care about all the other options/settings right now. Some day, maybe. I have to believe it is simple to setup to practice piano, but this seems impossible right now with my ignorance.  1. How can I set up both the a-500s and Sonar LE to specifically practice piano? And hear it as I play it? Do I even have to use the Sonar LE at all?   2. I once got sound to come out of the computer from the a-500s keyboard, but I figure out how I did that.   3. When I did hear 'music' I had to press the keys really hard to get the full tone instead of having a light touch.  4. The sound that came out was a very low volume, even tho I had my computer volume on max.  5. When I did press a key on the a-500s, the sound I heard from the computer lagged by a second (?), but at least noticeable which is not helpful for practicing.   I really appreciate anyone who can help me. I searched the forums and could not find any specific help to my problem. If there is such a discussion, I would like to know what the thread name is... THANK YOU!
post edited by katinka - 2012/08/08 17:12:15
#1
57Gregy
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Re:Just play like a piano 2012/08/08 18:01:09 (permalink)
Welcome to the forum.
Since you bought a MIDI controller instead of a MIDI keyboard, you'll have to depend on software synthesizers to hear what you play. And to get your delay (latency) down to a level you can stand, you'll need to invest in an audio interface designed for recording and processing audio faster than your stock computer sound card can. Not a Sound Blaster.
I don't know what soft synths came with your version of LE, but you may have to search around for some cheap or free soft synths that have nice piano sounds. Or the very expensive ones.

Greg 
I am selling my MIM Fender Stratocaster HSS, red and black. PM for more details.

Music Creator 2003, MC Pro 24, SONAR Home Studio 6 XL, SONAR  X3e, CbB, Focusrite Saffire, not enough space.
Everything is better with pie. 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=609446
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#2
katinka
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Re:Just play like a piano 2012/08/08 19:31:12 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
to admit, i have no clue what you are talking about!  CAn you give me a couple of specific make and model of both the audio interface and a soft synth that would work?  i dont want to spend alot of money..  my husband has an MT-32  (old)...  does this help?
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gcolbert
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Re:Just play like a piano 2012/08/08 21:06:01 (permalink)
DON'T PANIC
 
You thought you were getting a paring knife, but they delivered a new kitchen, including ranges and glassware.  There is a paring knife in there somewhere, but you are going to have to hunt through a couple of drawers.
 
Your a-500s does not have the capability of making any sound on its own. It isn't too different from your computer keyboard (except it knows how hard you type and can handle more than one key being pressed at a time).  So what happens when you hit the middle 'C' key is it sends something like the letters C4 and a number between 1 and 127 to the computer.  Concievably you could 'type' on your computer using your 'piano' keyboard.
 
When you run Sonar LE on your computer with the A-500s plugged into the computer, it can see what you are 'typing' on the 'piano' keyboard.'  It can 'record' what you are 'typing' or it can pass it along to another component that knows how to turn the letters C4 and the number into a sound (a synthesizer). 
 
He first thing that we have to do is introduce your keyboard to Sonar.  With Sonar running, go to the menu bar at the top and select EDIT->Preferences.  This will open a window with several options listed down the left hand side.  One of these is MIDI -> Devices.  Select MIDI Devices and look to see if your keyboard is shown in the 'inputs' box.  It might be called something like A-500S.  If it does not show up here something was missed in setting up your A-500s on the computer and you need to go over the user manual for the keyboard on how to install the drivers.
 
If it does show up there, go to the Sonar menu File -> New to create a new project.  There should be several choices for types of projects to create.  Give the project a simple name (katinka for example) and select the 'normal' template.  This should cause Sonar to open up in the 'Track View' mode and show a line for an audio track and a MIDI track.
 
We will tell Sonar to send the keyboard typing to the MIDI track and have the MIDI track pass along the information to a synthesizer.  Add a synthesizer to the project by selecting 'insert->Soft Synth' on the menu bar then selecting 'Cakewalk Sound Center.'  Check 'First Synth Audio Output' and 'Synth Property Page', then click OK.  This should result in the Sound Center being shown on the screen.  Drill down to a piano (or a kazoo, or strings, or whatever you want the keyboard to sound like)  You can use your mouse to test the sounds by clicking on the keyboard displayed in the sound center.
 
Go back to the MIDI track that was created for the project.  Select your keyboard as the input and the Cakewalk Sound Center as the output.
 
This might be a good time to save your project so you don't have to do this every time.
 
If the gods are happy with you, you should be able to play music on your keyboard using the A-500s keyboard.
 
Dealing with the delay might have to be handled in another message.  You don't necesissarily need to get an external sound card.  Lets get this much working and then see what we can do performance-wise with what you have already got.
 
Glen
 
 
 
 
#4
katinka
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Re:Just play like a piano 2012/08/09 18:26:51 (permalink)
Wow... what a wonderful response! I will have to give this a try, and I will get back to you on my success! (optimistically) Another alternative... should I return the A-500s and get a 'midi keyboard'? When I type in 'midi keyboard', all I get is midi controllers... is there a different term for 'midi keyboard'? I really only want 49 keys... I see there is a term 'digital piano', but they are only in full size keyboards, and I am not sure this is the solution... Thanks
post edited by katinka - 2012/08/09 18:29:16
#5
katinka
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Re:Just play like a piano 2012/08/09 19:19:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
yeah!!  i hear music again!!!

but the latency is terrible!   definitely need to solve this..

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gcolbert
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Re:Just play like a piano 2012/08/09 19:24:21 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Can you give us a little information on your computer?  Laptop/desktop, operating system, CPUs and speed, amount of memory, computer make and model?

Can you download and run the DPC Latency Checker program available at http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml  THis should tell if your hardware is up to the task.
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gcolbert
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Re:Just play like a piano 2012/08/09 19:30:45 (permalink)
For now, you should also download and install ASIO4ALL version 2.10  This should help a lot with using your built-in sound card.  Once it is loaded you will need to make some changes to your Edit-> Preferences-> Audio-> Plaback and Recording to set the 'Driver Mode' to ASIO'

Glen
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katinka
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Re:Just play like a piano 2012/08/09 22:56:27 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
I downloaded the latency checker. It ran, and said 'this machine should be able to handle real-time streaming of audio and/or video data with no drop-outs". This is a relative new laptop, Sony Vaio model PCG 71912L, windows 7 computer, 64 bit purchased 4 months ago. 500gb hard drive. Intel Pentium, cpu b940, 2.0ghz, ram 4gb I installed the ASIO4ALL 2.10. Then I tried to edit my audio pref playback/recording driver mode to asio. I saw the asio as a choice, and when I chose it I get an error: The following audio output devices used by this project are not available. Reassign missing audio output devices: Missing Devices are the Speaker/HP (conexant SamrtAudio HD) and the Available devices is the ASIO4ALL. So I choose ASIO, and apply. When I get back to the audio playback/recording settings, the driver mode says ASIO. Maybe OK? But there is no sound coming out of the keyboard/cakewalk anymore...
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57Gregy
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Re:Just play like a piano 2012/08/09 23:47:32 (permalink)
You might need to go back and change the outputs of your soft synth tracks to ASIO4All.

Greg 
I am selling my MIM Fender Stratocaster HSS, red and black. PM for more details.

Music Creator 2003, MC Pro 24, SONAR Home Studio 6 XL, SONAR  X3e, CbB, Focusrite Saffire, not enough space.
Everything is better with pie. 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=609446
http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/gregfields 
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gcolbert
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Re:Just play like a piano 2012/08/10 07:41:10 (permalink)
Try going to your Edit-> Preferences-> Audio-> Playback and Recording and select the option 'Share drivers with other programs.'  You may also have to change your windows Control Panel-> Sound-> Playback-> Properties -> advanced 'Allow programs to take exclusive control of this device' setting.

Glen
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katinka
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Re:Just play like a piano 2012/08/10 16:43:00 (permalink)
Thank you! It was the "share" option that made it work! Now the latency is more in the acceptable range. I will have to work with it to see how it goes. The next thing I need is that I have to press the keys really hard to hear them play... Is their some setting to alter the "touch" needed? I have looked thru the keyboard manual, and tried the settings for touch (key velocity) and velocity curve. As long as I play on the bottom edge (nearest to my body) of each key, I get the response I need. BUT BUT. If I press the key at the top of the key (furthest from my body), then the keyboard/sonar insists on a 'hard' press. This is required for sharps/flats (the black keys) when they are struck by the middle three fingers... I Have searched the keyboard manual and cannot find something that talks about this... By the way, I am thrilled at your help!!! Very professional and knowledgeable! I can't thank you enough!
post edited by katinka - 2012/08/10 18:51:50
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gcolbert
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Re:Just play like a piano 2012/08/10 19:18:30 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
You may want to play with the buffer settings in ASIO4ALL (Edit-> Properties-> Audio-> Driver Settings-> 'ASIO Panel' button.  Try different settings to trade off latency vs. sound dependability.

I'm a poor guitar player, and even worse with a keyboard.  I think that you might want to open another post asking about how to get the key velocity set using the A-500s and Sonar.  I'm sure that there is someone else out there who can talk you through getting these set to work how you need them to and specifically with your equipment.  You should probably start that thread in the X1 section of the forum.  Lots more users show up there.

This could be velocity settings on the keyboard, within Sonar, or even possibly that the synthesizer you are using may not have enough samples in it to give you the keyboard sensitivity that you need.

Glen
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57Gregy
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Re:Just play like a piano 2012/08/11 00:32:15 (permalink)
There is probably a way to turn off the velocity. Look in your manual.
On my keyboard there's a button to press that turns it off, giving all the notes played a velocity of 80 regardless of how hard I press the keys.

Greg 
I am selling my MIM Fender Stratocaster HSS, red and black. PM for more details.

Music Creator 2003, MC Pro 24, SONAR Home Studio 6 XL, SONAR  X3e, CbB, Focusrite Saffire, not enough space.
Everything is better with pie. 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=609446
http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/gregfields 
#14
katinka
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Re:Just play like a piano 2012/08/11 13:22:23 (permalink)
is there anything else i need to do, or consider doing, with sonar le or any other associated software?  again, thanks for all your advice...  you have been MOST helpful!

Attempting to use midi keyboard controller to play piano after years of acoustic piano playing.
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gcolbert
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Re:Just play like a piano 2012/08/11 18:22:07 (permalink)
I think you should consider taking the time to learn to record your playing and saving the performances.  Then when you decide that you want to play with the knobs you can play them back while you learn to tweak things.  I think you will also get a kick out of accompanying yourself and adding additional sounds and instruments. 

Your laptop does not have very good performance specifications for sound.  When the latency starts to really bother you you will probably want to invest in a good external USB 'soundcard.'  Look for posts from Beagle and follow the links in his signature for recommendations. 

The default Sound Center pianos are pretty entry level.  There are a lot of other, better, options, some not too expensive, that can be added in (either to Sound Center or as seperate Synths).  A real good piano might take more computer than you have so don't get carried away until you have a bit more experience.

Glen
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57Gregy
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Re:Just play like a piano 2012/08/12 00:42:55 (permalink)
There are ways to adjust the velocity, post-recording.
You can right-click any note while in Staff view or Piano Roll view (PRV) and change the velocity note by note.
Or open the Event List view. There you can see all the note's properties on one page and adjust any that are wildly different.
Or you can open the velocity controller pane while in the PRV and change the velocities there.

Greg 
I am selling my MIM Fender Stratocaster HSS, red and black. PM for more details.

Music Creator 2003, MC Pro 24, SONAR Home Studio 6 XL, SONAR  X3e, CbB, Focusrite Saffire, not enough space.
Everything is better with pie. 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=609446
http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/gregfields 
#17
katinka
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Re:Just play like a piano 2012/08/23 14:13:53 (permalink)
A new/related problem??? I purchased an M-Audio sustain/hold foot pedal. Without pressing the pedal, it works as expected. But when I do press the foot pedal, all the sound disappears (I hear nothing coming out of my computer/SONAR LE. Is there some switch/option that needs to be set in the Sonar to respond to a foot pedal? The Roland user manual implies that it is just suppose to work with no other settings...

Attempting to use midi keyboard controller to play piano after years of acoustic piano playing.
#18
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