KEYBOARD Magazine - Latest issue Sept 2011 - Sonar X1 reviewed: NOTATION PLEASE!!!

I join you on this issue. I even stated I would be willing to pay for a separate notation program that would intergrate into Sonar if they would develop it. I know there are other programs out there that are superior but how convenient would it be to stay in the same program without working in one program and then having to migrate and do more editing in another. Full score print outs with expression and pedal markings, all from Sonar! Well, one can dream! LOL

I gave my 15 year old daughter (who is very creative and plays several instruments) Sibelius and a mini-keyboard for her laptop.  She loves it.

She asked what it would take to write complex arrangements and play them back on high quality instrument sounds.  I told her she needed a DAW for that but that it would not be as good for notation.

She said, "Why doesn't somebody make a program that does both?  It shouldn't be that hard since they already have both things."

I cannot improve on her comment.  If you've read my posts in the past, you will know that I do 90% of my work in staff view.  How else would a writer/arranger work?

After so many ignored 'feature requests' it is possible the developers were never given the 'user/system requirements' detailing advanced NOTATION features because a powerful stakeholder thinks most Sonar users know/care very little about it. You can see this as the aim is to get the so called 'radio ready' recordings as expected from the music industry. Someone thinks they know what the music industry wants, not a few musicians pretending to be graduates from a world class music conservatoire.

garrigus


In terms of composing with notation, I like what NOTION Music has done with their NOTION3 software.

Scott

If Cakewalk would only allow MIDI data to be exported as xml then it wouldn't take much to integrate SONAR with any notation program; and yes NOTION 3 springs to mind; that's the program I use both as NOTION 3 and NOTION SLE Miroslav Philharmonic.
 
When Cakewalk did the Elite bundle with NOTION I really thought it was an indication that they'd done a deal to work on some form of structured collaboration and integration between the 2 programs. Marketing smoke and not programing reality unfortunately.

People who think Sonar should be a full-fledged notation program like Sibelius are not getting the point of the notation editor.  It was never designed to be a publish-quality notation tool, that is a completely separate process from recording and music.  What the notation editor's function is as a MIDI INPUT TOOL.   It allows musicians who read and write music and who think in both sound and symbol to input MIDI data effectively.  And it does this well.   My problem with Cakewalk notation is the unwillingness (over many years) of Cakewalk to fix the display of tied and dotted triplets and the new issue in X1 where the instrument pane does not reflect or change the active track.  It's aggravating to see a company so unresponsive to such an important musical tool. 

Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
www.jerrygerber.com/fivepiecesforvi1.htm

And it is for this very reason - that notation hasn't had anything done to it for several releases - that I abandoned ship at release 8 and am now using another product that has no notation support at all, but at least has a rock-solid audio engine. I would have put up with Sonar's quirks if some effort had been made to upgrade its score editing functionality. I don't want to wrangle with Sibelius or Notion or any external tool any more than Reason users really want to grapple with ReWire unless they have to - and I'm sure there are lots of other folk who want an all-in-one solution. Since Cakewalk have effectively told us to get lost, that's exactly what we're doing. I understand why we're not getting any new functionality in this area. The people who wrote it left the company and no-one now knows how to augment the code to add new functionality. It's a shame but then if Cake have decided that its target audience are those who use loops and for whom a crochet is some kind of knitting needle, well, so be it.

jsg


People who think Sonar should be a full-fledged notation program like Sibelius are not getting the point of the notation editor.  It was never designed to be a publish-quality notation tool, that is a completely separate process from recording and music.  What the notation editor's function is as a MIDI INPUT TOOL.   It allows musicians who read and write music and who think in both sound and symbol to input MIDI data effectively.  And it does this well.   My problem with Cakewalk notation is the unwillingness (over many years) of Cakewalk to fix the display of tied and dotted triplets and the new issue in X1 where the instrument pane does not reflect or change the active track.  It's aggravating to see a company so unresponsive to such an important musical tool. 

Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
www.jerrygerber.com/fivepiecesforvi1.htm

+1


fix the display of tied and dotted triplets and the handling of embedded rests


if I want to print, I'll export to a notation program 

I would also definitely love to see the basic aspects taken care of. But I think most of us really want, need, deserve, more than that. It is really about time.

I'm a musician. A creative mind - a composer. I want to spend most of my time creating, COMPOSING, listening, developing the music. I need to be able to write dinamics that are properly translated into velocities, volume curves, the right sample selection. I don't want to continue wasting time drawing CC curves, entering notes on a piano roll as a (better) alternative to jumping from one staff to the other on and on and on, or dealing with endless lists of control and patch changes. And in the end, redoing a good chunk of work sitting in front of FINALE in order to have a decent piece of readable/printable music. I think many people say NOTION has put some effort into a similar approach, I'm myself not certain as I've never used it, as have read of many other people say the notation capabilities are not quite yet there and development seems to have stalled. Maybe Cakewalk/Roland should consider investing in them and finally professionally address something that an "IMPORTANT minority" (is this fair to say?) needs.
 
By the way, I personally don't want Sonar Staff functionality to be a publishing tool. I need it to make sense in the context of making this the best DAW package in the market. That is, as a music composition tool.

garrigus

mudgel

If Cakewalk would only allow MIDI data to be exported as xml then it wouldn't take much to integrate SONAR with any notation program; and yes NOTION 3 springs to mind; that's the program I use both as NOTION 3 and NOTION SLE Miroslav Philharmonic. 

Hey Mike,


What about importing MIDI files into NOTION? What kind of results are you getting with that?


Scott

Nightmare with Notion or Sibelius.

backwoods


"Since Cakewalk have effectively told us to get lost, that's exactly what we're doing. I understand why we're not getting any new functionality in this area. The people who wrote it left the company and no-one now knows how to augment the code to add new functionality. It's a shame but then if Cake have decided that its target audience are those who use loops and for whom a crochet is some kind of knitting needle, well, so be it."


Whatever bro!!!! Shows what you know. Fork out for a dedicated notation program (no DAW has adequate notation) and quit complaining. 

Of the big 5 (Logic, Cubase, Protools, Perfromer and Sonar) Sonar is the only one that doesn't have adequite notation.  Dedicated notation programs do not solve the problem of composing inside a DAW.  Apparelty it is you who is ignorant of the situation.

backwoods


Adequate for you maybe. 

Completely adequate for composing inside a DAW.  When I need a notation app I have Sibelius and Notion.

Some things about Sonar 8.x has not been implemented in X-series yet.

Is notation in X1 at S8 level, or did they leave things out there too?

Otherwise I'm completely with the people wanting notation developed further. It's the right place to have it.

I would like to save templates of certain tracks that follow a project, one for vocalist, one for chorus people, one for brass section etc etc to quickly get a print for different purposes.

If good enough to make make prints to register songs with publishing companies it would be swell.

5 years ago I was in contact with Finale people to get in contact with Cakewalk to integrate into Sonar. It's such a waste that notation software now overlap so many things already in recording software. I was really hoping they would be at a dead end there, but it seems they still sell as separate programs.

Since there are Midi Fx plugins one would think notation software could work very well as such. Put one on each midi track that is to have notation and just about done.

Are there any notation software going down that path as Midi Fx?

It would be the perfect application as I see it. These plugins then can communicate with something built into Sonar for global handling or external apps.

garrigus

vintagevibe

What about importing MIDI files into NOTION? What kind of results are you getting with that?

Scott

Nightmare with Notion or Sibelius.

How about using Notion via ReWire? Have you had any luck with that? Just curious...



Scott

--
Scott R. Garrigus - http://garrigus.com/
* Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series: http://garrigus.com/?PowerBooks
* Author of the Cakewalk Sonar ProAudioTutor video tutorial series: http://garrigus.com/?ProAudioTutor
* Publisher of the DigiFreq free music technology newsletter: http://digifreq.com/?DigiFreq
* Publisher of the NewTechReview free consumer technology newsletter: http://newtechreview.com/?NewTechReview
 

It works pretty well but is fiddely.  It's an inspiration killer for me.    If I'm working on a pop tune that needs voice leading in a keyboard or string part it adds a whole new layer of complexity if I can't just do it inside my Sonar project.  If I'm working on an orchestral score I would start the project in Sibelius or Nottion because it would be mostly a notation project.  I could then Rewire or export MIDI to Sonar for mixing.  That's not a show stopper lilke the Sonar project that needs voice leading.  If I'm in a creative zone in Sonar I need to be able to just write without stopping to set up Rewire etc...  I personally don't even care about Sonar printing but it needs to be usable as a writing tool. 

  I also have wondered about rewire with Notion and Sonar. After they did that package deal awhile back I thought there would be tons of feedback on how that went but find surprisingly little.

Jon Bryson


  I also have wondered about rewire with Notion and Sonar. After they did that package deal awhile back I thought there would be tons of feedback on how that went but find surprisingly little.

But does rewire exist in x64 yet?

I read somthing at KVR that Propellerheads might have something coming though.

But now is now - and no rewire apps can be made , or?