K-System Metering

Dear Messers Henderson, Kuper, Westner, Damiano, Ryan etc.,

Please implement K-System metering in Sonar.

Thank you.

Q.

Me too... but it would be nice to have it neatly integrated -- despite however much the Sonar meters may lie. I'm just now coming to terms with exactly how powerful Digicheck is - some serious re-thinking ahead of me.

Ciao,

Q.

ORIGINAL: Qwerty69

Me too... but it would be nice to have it neatly integrated -- despite however much the Sonar meters may lie. I'm just now coming to terms with exactly how powerful Digicheck is - some serious re-thinking ahead of me.

Ciao,

Q.

the new multi-track recording version of digicheck is awesome - for straight live recording I can't think of a better program.

Kind regards

Dave Rich

ORIGINAL: Koed

Another Vote for the K-System.

I'm now relying on the metering in VST plugins (i.e. UAD precision limiter) that use the K-System.
Instead of using Sonar's own master meters.

Yes, I use the UAD-1 Precision Mastering Limiter's K-Metering, in SONAR, on the master bus, as well.

ORIGINAL: Qwerty69
Me too... but it would be nice to have it neatly integrated -- despite however much the Sonar meters may lie.

Are Sonar's meters not accurate?

I would really like K-Metering in Sonar, but at the very least they should conform to the AES spec for measuring digital audio equipment. Meaning that the RMS level of a full scale sine wave should read 0 dBFS RMS.

I guess I just don't get it.

Move zero on the scale makes for a better meter?

Even the picture in the link above still had all the meters going into the red?

isn't the k-system about synchronising the meters with what you're hearing, and requires syncronising one's monitoring setup with the meter display? i have inspector xl, which has 3 (i think) k- variations (20, 14 & 12, iirc) to be used in different circumstances

p
(just adding to the confusion, as per )

ORIGINAL: DonM

Here is Ron Kuper on the K-System and Sonar's Metering engineering:

Link Here

Note: the great input from Mr. Tarsier!
-D

And unfortunately, Ron never followed up on my last point. I'd like to know where it ended up... perhaps in the round file, as metering hasn't changed in Sonar 6.

ORIGINAL: xackley

I guess I just don't get it.

Move zero on the scale makes for a better meter?

Even the picture in the link above still had all the meters going into the red?

The K-System is not just a meter, it's a whole way of working with calibrated loudness. It is really an excellent way to mix, because it actually does help you focus more on the sound rather than where your meters are.

If you really want to understand it, there are two articles to read by the guy who came up with the system:

Level Practices (Part 1)
Level Practices (Part 2)

So as far as the being in the red, here's a section from Part 2:

Using the Meter's Red Zone. This 88-90 dB+ region is used in films for explosions and special effects. In music recording, naturally-recorded (uncompressed) large symphonic ensembles and big bands reach +3 to +4 dB on the average scale on the loudest (fortissimo) passages. Rock and electric pop music take advantage of this "loud zone", since climaxes, loud choruses and occasional peak moments sound incorrect if they only reach 0dB (forte) on any K-system meter. Composers have equated fortissimo to 88-90+ dB since the time of Beethoven. Use this range occasionally, otherwise it is musically incorrect (and ear-damaging). If engineers find themselves using the red zone all the time, then either the monitor gain is not properly calibrated, the music is extremely unusual (e.g. "heavy metal"), or the engineer needs more monitor gain to correlate with his or her personal sensitivities. Otherwise the recording will end up overcompressed, with squashed transients, and its loudness quotient out of line with K-System guidelines.

So on the K-Meter, 0 (the crossing point between green and yellow) is forte and then you push up into red for the fortissimo passages. It's not that Red should be avoided, it's that it is there as an indicator of where you should be putting the loudest parts of your mixes. You also worry less about digital overs, because with the K-20 meter, it essentially gives you a 20 dB space between your nominal (forte) RMS levels and your maximum peaks.

And I'll just emphasize again, the meter should be used in conjunction with your monitors calibrated to the specified loudness level. That is the key. In fact, if you calibrate the loudness of your monitors and you know where 0 dB K-System is on your volume control, you can pretty much turn off your meters and just record/mix with your ears.

the new multi-track recording version of digicheck is awesome - for straight live recording I can't think of a better program.

Dave--

Can you tell us more about this? I'm unable to find anything on it on RME's site.

Danke!

I guess I just don't get it.

I get it. But, like you, I don't see any real need to do this. If you have your system setup well what metering system you use should not make any difference as long as you know what you are doing and how to read them.
I am sure that in some of the recordings that are being done today they are using the K system. They are still too loud and overcompressed. (Just my opinion)

If you are after the most compressed and loudest sound that can be gotten by man then what meters you use will have no impact on that.
However, proper use of the metering that one has at hand and letting the sound "breath" will sound good no matter what.

Though, having another tool to help can't be a bad thing.

Thats my story and I am sticking to it!

maybe auto gain might.

It is funny how the sound level on new CDs are so much louder then they used to be. Maybe it is as you imply here that the K system is to blame.

Best
John

The K system is a system not just meters. TKS integrates a calibrated, repeatable reference monitor position with a metering system that represents the current landscape of old and new approaches to energy measurement. TKS considers what I call energy rather than spikes allowing for a single system to faithfully represent peak and average. It's a method of establishing terra firma at a stage in production where small changes mean big things.

-D

The K system is a system not just meters. TKS integrates a calibrated, repeatable reference monitor position with a metering system that represents the current landscape of old and new approaches to energy measurement. TKS considers what I call energy rather than spikes allowing for a single system to faithfully represent peak and average. It's a method of establishing terra firma at a stage in production where small changes mean big things.

I hear you and fully understand that. It is also true that one can already calibrate ones own system and have a highly accurate monitoring system without the K system employed at all.

Also, as I said , it can't hurt to have this as an option. I just think that we already have more tools at our disposal then we can use. I guess I am on the fence.

Best
John

I view the K-System akin to having speed limits on the highway, but adjusting those limits based upon what kind of car you drive or what kind of driver you are.

Sports car = 80 mph (loud mix, small dynamics)
Sedan = 70 mph (average mix, medium dynamics)
Minivan = 50 mph (low mix, high dynamics)

Some speeds are more appropriate depending on what kind of car you drive.

If you don't have accepted standard limits (metering standards), then everyone in a sports car drives as fast as they can leading a "race" mentality (loudness race) . Everyone faster than those before them. "I need a faster car 'cause that guy just passed me!"

But then again, driving as fast as you can on some roads (cd player) will ruin your car in a crash (clipping/distortion) because it just wasn't meant for people to be driving that fast.

Not a complete analogy, but I think it gives some understanding...

Original: John
It is also true that one can already calibrate ones own system and have a highly accurate monitoring system without the K system employed at all.

I believe this completely, but in this method your calibrated system is not the same as my calibrated system or anyone else's calibrated system unless it's by chance and that's where the problem lies.

ORIGINAL: Qwerty69

Dear Messers Henderson, Kuper, Westner, Damiano, Ryan etc.,

Please implement K-System metering in Sonar.

Thank you.

Q.

Hey Q,

Don't you have the UAD Precision Limiter?

You can disable the plug but still use it's "K" Metering.

That and the PEQ are my next purchase, after I get another card.

Scott