K-System Metering

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Qwerty69
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2006/12/01 02:34:53 (permalink)

K-System Metering

Dear Messers Henderson, Kuper, Westner, Damiano, Ryan etc.,

Please implement K-System metering in Sonar.

Thank you.

Q.
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    daverich
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 05:47:49 (permalink)
    2nd it - not that I need it as I use RME digicheck.

    Kind regards

    Dave Rich

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    #2
    Qwerty69
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 06:32:40 (permalink)
    Me too... but it would be nice to have it neatly integrated -- despite however much the Sonar meters may lie. I'm just now coming to terms with exactly how powerful Digicheck is - some serious re-thinking ahead of me.

    Ciao,

    Q.
    #3
    Koed
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 06:46:17 (permalink)
    Another Vote for the K-System.

    I'm now relying on the metering in VST plugins (i.e. UAD precision limiter) that use the K-System.
    Instead of using Sonar's own master meters.
    #4
    daverich
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 06:51:44 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Qwerty69

    Me too... but it would be nice to have it neatly integrated -- despite however much the Sonar meters may lie. I'm just now coming to terms with exactly how powerful Digicheck is - some serious re-thinking ahead of me.

    Ciao,

    Q.



    the new multi-track recording version of digicheck is awesome - for straight live recording I can't think of a better program.

    Kind regards

    Dave Rich

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    #5
    Muziekschuur at home
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 06:59:37 (permalink)
    http://www.pas-products.com/

    This metering system is another posibility and inexpensive.


    Muziekschuur

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    Billy Buck
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 09:10:59 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Koed

    Another Vote for the K-System.

    I'm now relying on the metering in VST plugins (i.e. UAD precision limiter) that use the K-System.
    Instead of using Sonar's own master meters.



    Yes, I use the UAD-1 Precision Mastering Limiter's K-Metering, in SONAR, on the master bus, as well.

    post edited by Billy Buck - 2006/12/01 09:29:26

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    DonM
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 09:31:15 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Qwerty69

    Dear Messers Henderson, Kuper, Westner, Damiano, Ryan etc.,

    Please implement K-System metering in Sonar.

    Thank you.

    Q.

    Q:
    Ron Kuper left CW in August - I'd consider Noel one of the folks that you'd want to ping on this as well.

    BTW - someone correct me if I'm wrong here... but Voxengo Span (free) has K as one of it's options - at least a start if you really want to meter in that context. It would be a nice add, but since I don't master in Sonar not a loss to me.

    -D
    post edited by DonM - 2006/12/01 09:51:08

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    #8
    tarsier
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 09:32:18 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Qwerty69
    Me too... but it would be nice to have it neatly integrated -- despite however much the Sonar meters may lie.

    Are Sonar's meters not accurate?

    I would really like K-Metering in Sonar, but at the very least they should conform to the AES spec for measuring digital audio equipment. Meaning that the RMS level of a full scale sine wave should read 0 dBFS RMS.
    #9
    DonM
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 09:38:09 (permalink)
    Here is Ron Kuper on the K-System and Sonar's Metering engineering:

    Link Here

    Note: the great input from Mr. Tarsier!
    -D
    post edited by DonM - 2006/12/01 09:56:43

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    xackley
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 10:12:36 (permalink)
    I guess I just don't get it.

    Move zero on the scale makes for a better meter?

    Even the picture in the link above still had all the meters going into the red?

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    javahut
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 10:56:21 (permalink)
    Yep, I don't get it either. I think K System is really only necessary of you're trying to interface with other hardware that has their 0db levels at something other than 0db. If you're totally ITB with most of your processes, it's not necessary... and IMHO confuses things unecessarily.
    #12
    pwal
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 11:02:26 (permalink)
    isn't the k-system about synchronising the meters with what you're hearing, and requires syncronising one's monitoring setup with the meter display? i have inspector xl, which has 3 (i think) k- variations (20, 14 & 12, iirc) to be used in different circumstances

    p
    (just adding to the confusion, as per )

    list of stuff
    #13
    mwd
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 11:27:51 (permalink)
    Whoooooaaaa..... not so fast.

    You've got a gazillion dollars invested in your setup and may be stopping 100 bucks short of metering bliss. I've been using K-System with Cake for over a year.

    Do yourself a favor and check out Elemental Audio Inspector XL. I can't say what the price is now since Rogerizer Nicholizer bought them out... BUT.

    Not only K-System metering but 3 frequency analyzers, clip detector, hidden clip detector, 3 stereo imaging meters, digital level meters, linear level meters. Each version has a mono or stereo meter in a horizontal or vertical format or you can use the Multimeter which combines them or use them with more detail separately.

    Using the horizontal versions with enable tabbed kicks butt.

    The 90 page instruction manual alone is worth the 100 bucks. You will learn quite a chunk about sound and signal.

    You gotta' realize if Cake does it... it ain't gonna' be free anyway and it isn't going to be as intense or versatile as a 3rd party that specializes in metering.

    The 2 side benefits are you still have your Cake metering which is fantastic for certain scenarios and after a while of using the K-System with the Cake meters you will start to visualize the K-System approach on the Cake meters.

    PUUUULLLLLLLLLEEEEAAAASSSSEEEEEE.... leave the Cake meters as is.

    #14
    tarsier
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 11:36:42 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: DonM

    Here is Ron Kuper on the K-System and Sonar's Metering engineering:

    Link Here

    Note: the great input from Mr. Tarsier!
    -D

    And unfortunately, Ron never followed up on my last point. I'd like to know where it ended up... perhaps in the round file, as metering hasn't changed in Sonar 6.

    ORIGINAL: xackley

    I guess I just don't get it.

    Move zero on the scale makes for a better meter?

    Even the picture in the link above still had all the meters going into the red?

    The K-System is not just a meter, it's a whole way of working with calibrated loudness. It is really an excellent way to mix, because it actually does help you focus more on the sound rather than where your meters are.

    If you really want to understand it, there are two articles to read by the guy who came up with the system:

    Level Practices (Part 1)
    Level Practices (Part 2)

    So as far as the being in the red, here's a section from Part 2:

    Using the Meter's Red Zone. This 88-90 dB+ region is used in films for explosions and special effects. In music recording, naturally-recorded (uncompressed) large symphonic ensembles and big bands reach +3 to +4 dB on the average scale on the loudest (fortissimo) passages. Rock and electric pop music take advantage of this "loud zone", since climaxes, loud choruses and occasional peak moments sound incorrect if they only reach 0dB (forte) on any K-system meter. Composers have equated fortissimo to 88-90+ dB since the time of Beethoven. Use this range occasionally, otherwise it is musically incorrect (and ear-damaging). If engineers find themselves using the red zone all the time, then either the monitor gain is not properly calibrated, the music is extremely unusual (e.g. "heavy metal"), or the engineer needs more monitor gain to correlate with his or her personal sensitivities. Otherwise the recording will end up overcompressed, with squashed transients, and its loudness quotient out of line with K-System guidelines.

    So on the K-Meter, 0 (the crossing point between green and yellow) is forte and then you push up into red for the fortissimo passages. It's not that Red should be avoided, it's that it is there as an indicator of where you should be putting the loudest parts of your mixes. You also worry less about digital overs, because with the K-20 meter, it essentially gives you a 20 dB space between your nominal (forte) RMS levels and your maximum peaks.

    And I'll just emphasize again, the meter should be used in conjunction with your monitors calibrated to the specified loudness level. That is the key. In fact, if you calibrate the loudness of your monitors and you know where 0 dB K-System is on your volume control, you can pretty much turn off your meters and just record/mix with your ears.
    #15
    javahut
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 13:29:22 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: mwd
    Do yourself a favor and check out Elemental Audio Inspector XL. I can't say what the price is now since Rogerizer Nicholizer bought them out... BUT.

    I think I'd check this meter out, too. Roger Nichols' over priced Inspector XL when he took it over, IMHO. Especially since the Nugen meter is now available.

    Nugen Audio Visualizer

    But I agree with mdw... leave the Sonar meter as is. Just like there's plug-in options for top-of-the-line effects, there's plug-in options for top-of-the-line meters, too. Cake doesn't need to make it their job to make the best of everything... just work on the DAW.

    And if there's anything sorely lacking in Sonar, it's individual pan controls for each side of a stereo track or bus instead one balance knob. It's ridiculous that this hasn't already been implemented. Please give us that before K System meters.
    #16
    newfuturevintage
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 14:45:43 (permalink)
    the new multi-track recording version of digicheck is awesome - for straight live recording I can't think of a better program.


    Dave--

    Can you tell us more about this? I'm unable to find anything on it on RME's site.

    Danke!

    My inner child is an angry drunk.
    #17
    tarsier
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 15:30:06 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: javahut
    But I agree with mdw... leave the Sonar meter as is. Just like there's plug-in options for top-of-the-line effects, there's plug-in options for top-of-the-line meters, too. Cake doesn't need to make it their job to make the best of everything... just work on the DAW.

    And if there's anything sorely lacking in Sonar, it's individual pan controls for each side of a stereo track or bus instead one balance knob. It's ridiculous that this hasn't already been implemented. Please give us that before K System meters.

    I don't think anyone is suggesting that Sonar's meters should become clones of Inspector XL or any other top-notch metering system. And as they are now, Sonar's meters are quite good. They look good and have good ballistics options. However they are lacking in that they don't have a way to adjust the 0 dB reference point, and you should be able to adjust that point individually for RMS and Peak readouts. That should be a simple change and it would enable conformance to the AES-17 spec as well as K-Metering. At a bare minimum, there should be a choice for choosing whether 0 dBRMS is referenced to a sine wave (AES spec) or a square wave (current Sonar implementation).

    I'm also not suggesting that Cakewalk change the default metering system. Just add one more minor feature to make the current meters complete.

    And Sonar does need individual pan controls for a stereo track. But I'd rather have the metering change implemented before the pan control.
    #18
    John
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 17:08:10 (permalink)
    I guess I just don't get it.

    I get it. But, like you, I don't see any real need to do this. If you have your system setup well what metering system you use should not make any difference as long as you know what you are doing and how to read them.
    I am sure that in some of the recordings that are being done today they are using the K system. They are still too loud and overcompressed. (Just my opinion)

    If you are after the most compressed and loudest sound that can be gotten by man then what meters you use will have no impact on that.
    However, proper use of the metering that one has at hand and letting the sound "breath" will sound good no matter what.

    Though, having another tool to help can't be a bad thing.

    Thats my story and I am sticking to it!
    post edited by John - 2006/12/01 17:32:57
    #19
    xackley
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 17:14:35 (permalink)
    Ok, I remember thinking about this last year, or maybe the year before.

    The k meters are a gimic to establish a compression standard and rollback the solid 0db playback.

    BTY, would a stereo compressor fix the sound on my TV

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    John
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 17:19:39 (permalink)
    maybe auto gain might.

    It is funny how the sound level on new CDs are so much louder then they used to be. Maybe it is as you imply here that the K system is to blame.

    Best
    John
    #21
    javahut
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 17:39:16 (permalink)
    A meter that registers instantaneous level would be a peak meter. To me, that's the most accurate meter there is. The average value (RMS) of the wave form would register lower. That's also accurate. Changing the scale is just an arbitrary way to read the correct measurements as a throwback to an older method. I prefer reading what's really happening. If you wanna have some kind of color code to the metering that reflects different levels (K System), fine... change the color code for the meters below 0db peak. But changing where 0db occurs arbitrarily just because you want to see 0db represent something other than 0db, in my opinion, is confusing and inaccurate. The digital levels on the meters in Sonar are accurate now. Changing them is just a way to mimic old ways of metering. Why not just get used to having the meters truly represent what the instantaneous level is and get used to that? When I look at averge levels, I'm usually wanting to reference it to how close to peak the average is... not to it's own scale. But that's just my preference.

    But I agree, it probably wouldn't take much to have this as an option in Sonar. I just don't understand why some people prefer it over seeing real levels represented.
    #22
    DonM
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 21:02:30 (permalink)
    The K system is a system not just meters. TKS integrates a calibrated, repeatable reference monitor position with a metering system that represents the current landscape of old and new approaches to energy measurement. TKS considers what I call energy rather than spikes allowing for a single system to faithfully represent peak and average. It's a method of establishing terra firma at a stage in production where small changes mean big things.

    -D

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    #23
    javahut
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 21:32:52 (permalink)
    Uh... ya... I understand . But why not do it with meters set to accurately indicate the levels?
    #24
    John
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 21:41:33 (permalink)
    The K system is a system not just meters. TKS integrates a calibrated, repeatable reference monitor position with a metering system that represents the current landscape of old and new approaches to energy measurement. TKS considers what I call energy rather than spikes allowing for a single system to faithfully represent peak and average. It's a method of establishing terra firma at a stage in production where small changes mean big things.


    I hear you and fully understand that. It is also true that one can already calibrate ones own system and have a highly accurate monitoring system without the K system employed at all.

    Also, as I said , it can't hurt to have this as an option. I just think that we already have more tools at our disposal then we can use. I guess I am on the fence.

    Best
    John
    #25
    altima_boy_2001
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 22:28:37 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: DonM

    The K system is a system not just meters. TKS integrates a calibrated, repeatable reference monitor position with a metering system that represents the current landscape of old and new approaches to energy measurement. TKS considers what I call energy rather than spikes allowing for a single system to faithfully represent peak and average. It's a method of establishing terra firma at a stage in production where small changes mean big things.

    -D



    I've adopted the K-System in my mixes after reading Bob Katz's book (several times now) and downloading the Voxengo SPAN plugin which has normal, K-12, K-14, and K-20 metering options. Best thing about it is that when I master a song using its appropriate metering then I don't have to guess how that song will sound loudness-wise compared to every other recording I've ever mastered using the K-System. If everybody used the K-System, then I wouldn't have to guess how my recording would sound compared to every other recording using this system.

    My thrash metal song using K-12 metering will be loud compared to my rock ballad using K-14 metering and both will sound louder than my highly dynamic acoustic recording using K-20 metering. My thrash metal song will be as loud as your thrash metal song, yet still have dynamics and transients. Choose your system based on the loudness and/or amount of dynamics you want to decide which meter to use and then you no longer have to worry about it. Plus, it has the added benefit of ensuring that even my loudest mixes maintain a fair amount of transients.

    I can put on a playlist of everything I've recorded, set the volume once, and never touch it again. Everything plays back at an appropriate level and nothing is too loud or too quiet unless I intentionally made it that way during the mix. The same goes for my recordings compared to everyone else's recordings that use the same metering system.

    That is the greatest benefit.
    post edited by altima_boy_2001 - 2006/12/01 23:19:45
    #26
    altima_boy_2001
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/01 22:57:19 (permalink)
    I view the K-System akin to having speed limits on the highway, but adjusting those limits based upon what kind of car you drive or what kind of driver you are.

    Sports car = 80 mph (loud mix, small dynamics)
    Sedan = 70 mph (average mix, medium dynamics)
    Minivan = 50 mph (low mix, high dynamics)

    Some speeds are more appropriate depending on what kind of car you drive.

    If you don't have accepted standard limits (metering standards), then everyone in a sports car drives as fast as they can leading a "race" mentality (loudness race) . Everyone faster than those before them. "I need a faster car 'cause that guy just passed me!"

    But then again, driving as fast as you can on some roads (cd player) will ruin your car in a crash (clipping/distortion) because it just wasn't meant for people to be driving that fast.

    Not a complete analogy, but I think it gives some understanding...



    Original: John
    It is also true that one can already calibrate ones own system and have a highly accurate monitoring system without the K system employed at all.


    I believe this completely, but in this method your calibrated system is not the same as my calibrated system or anyone else's calibrated system unless it's by chance and that's where the problem lies.
    #27
    Jesse G
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/02 00:29:14 (permalink)
    Voxengo Elephant has K- metering

    Peace

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    Tape Head
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/02 00:42:13 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Qwerty69

    Dear Messers Henderson, Kuper, Westner, Damiano, Ryan etc.,

    Please implement K-System metering in Sonar.

    Thank you.

    Q.

    Hey Q,

    Don't you have the UAD Precision Limiter?

    You can disable the plug but still use it's "K" Metering.

    That and the PEQ are my next purchase, after I get another card.

    Scott

    Scott
    #29
    Tape Head
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    RE: K-System Metering 2006/12/02 00:44:25 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: DonM

    The K system is a system not just meters. TKS integrates a calibrated, repeatable reference monitor position with a metering system that represents the current landscape of old and new approaches to energy measurement. TKS considers what I call energy rather than spikes allowing for a single system to faithfully represent peak and average. It's a method of establishing terra firma at a stage in production where small changes mean big things.

    -D


    That's Fk'n amazing.. I'm buying Bob Katz's book for X-mas...

    I'm done play'n around


    Scott

    Scott
    #30
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