Helpful ReplyKVR vote for 'Best Daw'

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Anderton
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/05/22 20:40:42 (permalink)
Unfortunately, even that doesn't really tell you much. Having SEO is not the same thing as popularity. If a zillion people are complaining about Pro Tools' upgrade price, that will get a lot of SEO. And of course, GarageBand "outsells" any other Mac program because it's bundled with Apple computers.
 
Also note that the internet popularity chart mixes genres. FL Studio, Ableton Live, Maschine, and to some extent GarageBand are beats-oriented programs. Audition is used more as part of Adobe's Creative Suite. Digital Performer has a strong niche market among video pros who don't want to go the Pro Tools route. 
 
The two stats I can state with absolute certainty are that Pro Tools is by far the best-selling program called Pro Tools, and Sonar is the best-selling program called Sonar. 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#31
Dave Modisette
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/05/22 22:19:05 (permalink)
I'm not surprised that Reaper is #1 in a KRV poll.  Reaperites are more dedicated and evangelistic than those folks who knock on your door on Saturday morning and hand you their literature.  

I think most people are going to agree that a poll ranking will hardly guarantee you that any given product will be a good fit for you.  It all depends on your budget and what kind of recording your are going to do.

Dave Modisette ... rocks a Purrrfect Audio Studio Pro rig.

http://www.gatortraks.com 
My music.
... And of course, the Facebook page. 
#32
dubdisciple
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/05/23 09:41:26 (permalink)
It wouldn't shock me if fl studio outsold pro tools. Hobbyists and enthusiasts outnumber dedicate pro facilities by a wide margin. Aspiring pop and EDM producers outnumber comppsers by a wide margin. I know of only one ferarri dealer in my area but there are several Honda, Toyota and Ford dealers within minutes. I would not bother comparing those cars to a Ferrari because they are different beasts designed for a different demographic.

Too many people use Reaper for free and that skews any "popularity" comparison. Free tends to bump you to the front of the line.
#33
Jim Roseberry
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/05/23 14:19:58 (permalink)
Online popularity according to what demographic?
FL Studio isn't a traditional DAW app... so it's comparing apples to soda.
 
You can "bend" statistics to support darn near any position.
Politicians do this on a daily basis.   
post edited by Jim Roseberry - 2014/05/23 15:05:42

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#34
Jim Roseberry
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/05/23 14:29:14 (permalink)
Squier guitars handily outsell Fender American Deluxe models.
What meaningful information can you extrapolate?
  • Squier guitars are superior?
  • More pros play Squier because they're more popular?
  • American Deluxe models are over-rated?
  • American Deluxe models are over-priced?
In the end, it really doesn't tell you much beyond the obvious (more folks can afford less expensive instruments).
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#35
lawp
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/05/23 14:48:25 (permalink)
Jim RoseberryOnline popularity according that what demographic?
kvr users :-) where did bitwig come? :-D



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#36
Jim Roseberry
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/05/23 15:11:59 (permalink)
lawp
Jim RoseberryOnline popularity according that what demographic?
kvr users :-) where did bitwig come? :-D



I'm seeing visions of cats...
Cats everywhere...
Well... I am Studio Cat  

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#37
myconsumerclub
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/05/25 16:42:47 (permalink)
Sonar is the leading DAW as far as I am concerned and I tried reaper but sonar is sooooo much nicer and just has much more to offer. Reaper can be rewired into sonar so it has its uses but I almost never need to do that. 

Samsung I7 8 mb ram windows 8 64 bit on everything x2 & X1 producer line 6 podfarm gold interface event monitors Ibanez rg 350 guitar and GA6CE classical edirol pcr 500 keystation 88 plugins out the wazoo
#38
Anderton
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/05/25 21:07:50 (permalink)
The best DAW has not been invented yet. When it is, everyone will use it because it will be the best. All other DAW companies will go out of business. So, let's hope that Cakewalk invents the best DAW.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#39
LA2A
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/01 16:19:16 (permalink)
Apparently the managers of the KVR audio forum are privy to actual DAW sales-figures...
 
At an interview over at KVR with Ernst Nathorst, who is one of the head honchos over at Reason DAW land 
 
The interview starts-out with this statement... "What is the second best-selling cross platform DAW in the world (after Pro Tools)? OK, Pencils down. The answer is  Reason from Propellerhead software" 
 
So, Pro Tools, then Reason, my oh my, and apparently it has been exactly this way for the last 8 years, very interesting. Does anyone know where Sonar is on the list?
#40
scook
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/01 16:29:36 (permalink)
Trick question, SONAR would not be on the list, it is not a "cross platform DAW".
#41
Beepster
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/01 16:56:18 (permalink)
LA2A
So, Pro Tools, then Reason, my oh my, and apparently it has been exactly this way for the last 8 years, very interesting. Does anyone know where Sonar is on the list?




You sound concerned.
#42
melmyers
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/01 22:41:58 (permalink)
LA2A 
So, Pro Tools, then Reason, my oh my, and apparently it has been exactly this way for the last 8 years, very interesting. Does anyone know where Sonar is on the list?




For certain, someone knows where Sonar is on the list. Does it benefit them to announce it? No. What's the point? In marketing, the only position a company would want to advertise is Number 1. Don't expect anyone to run around saying, "We're Number Four, We're Number Four!"
 
If Sonar is not in the Top 5, will I quit using it out of shame? No way. 
 
If it's #3, will my self esteem go up? Again, no.
 
Here's a question for you, LA2A. Do you own Sonar X3? 
 
 

Mel Myers
Producer/Songwriter/Voiceover Talent
Sonar Platinum 64-bit/Intel Quad Core i7-2600 CPU @ 3.40GHz 16GB RAM/LGA1155 Motherboard/Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit /Focusrite 18i20/Cakewalk A-800 Pro/UAD-2 Quad PCIe/& a black and white Pomeranian who thinks he's the boss
#43
backwoods
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/02 02:13:57 (permalink)
Sonar is my personal "best daw" and I have quite a few. 
 
If there was a survey of hotshot producers in million dollar studios ProTools would clean house though. There's not many of those guys however and I don't think they would hang around the KVR forums. 
#44
KPerry
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/02 02:48:14 (permalink)
Best selling by quantity (and hence number in use to some extent) or by revenue?

Potentially - and quite likely - very different answers and very different conclusions to be drawn.
#45
dubdisciple
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/02 03:16:13 (permalink)
LA2A
Apparently the managers of the KVR audio forum are privy to actual DAW sales-figures...
 
At an interview over at KVR with Ernst Nathorst, who is one of the head honchos over at Reason DAW land 
 
The interview starts-out with this statement... "What is the second best-selling cross platform DAW in the world (after Pro Tools)? OK, Pencils down. The answer is  Reason from Propellerhead software" 
 
So, Pro Tools, then Reason, my oh my, and apparently it has been exactly this way for the last 8 years, very interesting. Does anyone know where Sonar is on the list?




this has troll written all over it but I will ignore tha trollish aspects and go straight to what matters:
 
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority
 
I won't go into all the details as to why this logical fallacy sucks so hard but left you a link that does it for me.   I have no idea if Reason is the second best selling cross-platform DAW and i doubt you do either. It would seem if there are people who have accurate info into actual sales numbers of every DAW it would likely  leak.
 
Furthermore raw sales numbers comparing these products are somewhat meaningless.  Apple computers still have a small market share compared to PCs but who uses them and what they are used for makes that smaller percentage a lot more significant.  I would actually be shocked if Pro Tools is number one in raw sales, especially if you are talking about flagship products and not including le type editions..  I would be more surprised if an expensive product that is best used with expensive hardware is somehow outselling cheaper products that work on modestly powered laptops.
 
I think people who care too much about polls like this have a deep seeded psychological need to be on bandwagons as if the results of a poll somehow justify their purchases.  The best DAW is the one that works for you.  All solutions do not fit all needs. I would not use FL Studio to mix a symphony but it is easily the preferred DAW for certain styles of pop music. Truth be told, many producers end up using several DAWs.  A song produced in Reason for an artist on a major label is likely to end up in Pro tools for final mixing and mastering anyway. Bottomline, these polls can either be a fun thing or a bunch of insecure people making themselves feel better.
#46
dubdisciple
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/02 03:17:30 (permalink)
The irony in all of this is that Avid is struggling mightily despite being the standard bearer for film editing and audio production.
 
#47
LA2A
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/02 08:56:25 (permalink)
I myself much prefer Sonar and Cubase. Both Sonar X3 and Cubase 7.5 have a lot of maturity, refinement and features plus relevant music-making tools, these two DAWs are certainly refined and good bang-for-buck, not to mention highly capable.
 
I do look forward to Sonar X4 and Cubase 8, these should be something to be reckoned with. To some extent it seems that Pro Tools might be overpriced, even the standalone version. Sonar and Cubase are more complete packages, either of these can do the job and do it well. But i must say that official DAW popularity as stated by KVR is interesting. How is it that AVID is struggling financially when they have the world's most popular DAW? In raw numbers it sells more than any other DAW, and Reason is not far behind. Mere curiosity leads me to wonder where Sonar stands in the official sales-figures list. One thing is for sure from an industry insider, Presonus Studio One is higher up the list than Sonar apparently, and maybe the upcoming Studio One ver III will cement its position.
 
What do you think Cakewalk opps i mean Gibson could do to increase Sonar sales, it is surely a worthy DAW. Actually, that begs the question... why do users here find they prefer Sonar over every other DAW? The fact it is bristling with features and competent plugins is the gem for me, and the Pro Channel is the icing on the cake, but things like the grid-sequencer and the matrix view are also compelling reasons to stay with Sonar, these are very handy...
#48
lawp
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/02 09:29:42 (permalink)
LA2A
What do you think Cakewalk opps i mean Gibson could do to increase Sonar sales

Focus on stability, and maximize exploiting the single platform

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#49
rbowser
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/02 09:41:08 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SteveStrummerUK 2014/11/19 08:33:38
LA2AWhat do you think Cakewalk oops i mean Gibson could do to increase Sonar sales?



Return to functionality being the #1 priority instead of GUI cosmetics.  e.g. less reliance on menu diving and long lists of keybindings, returning to the old select tool which was smarter than the "smart tool" - and etc.  Potential customers are wanting solid, intuitive functionality - not pretty graphics.
 
Randy B.

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#50
dubdisciple
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/02 10:38:06 (permalink)
LA2A
How is it that AVID is struggling financially when they have the world's most popular DAW? In raw numbers it sells more than any other DAW, and Reason is not far behind. Mere curiosity leads me to wonder where Sonar stands in the official sales-figures list. One thing is for sure from an industry insider, Presonus Studio One is higher up the list than Sonar apparently, and maybe the upcoming Studio One ver III will cement its position.



 
It has still not been established that Pro Tools or any other DAW is clearly number one is sales. Without numbers and reasoning other than a logical fallacy, your statements are based on unknown and dubious variables. I could easily say I know an "insider" that mysteriously has figures that magic music maker has the most raw sales and it would be just as valid since both are complete bs statements if not backed by the preferred method of folks talking out their anuses worldwide.
#51
Cactus Music
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/02 11:29:12 (permalink)
After a good 3 months of hunkering down with X3e Studio and 2 albums being worked on, I miss the way 8.5 worked. Xseries as Randy has said is a little overboard on the features that will remain hidden but sneak up on you all the time when you DON'T want them. My list of things I don't like while editing both audio and midi is growing. I'm entrenched right now but I have half a mind to return to 8.5 for the next project to see if I'm correct. 
We all work in a different way and we all need different features, so for for me life is not better. 
The point of what I say, is they seem to have chosen a path that Sonar will have a long, long list of features equating to a very steep learning curve,when what the market might be looking for is ease of use and stability. 
 
PS. You often see newbies asking on Gear slutz the question "what DAW should I buy?" 
And 9 out of 10 replies the list will not include Sonar. Sonar is not on the Radar of the status- quo. 

Johnny V  
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#52
Jim Roseberry
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/02 11:36:32 (permalink)
LA2A
But i must say that official DAW popularity as stated by KVR is interesting. How is it that AVID is struggling financially when they have the world's most popular DAW? In raw numbers it sells more than any other DAW, and Reason is not far behind. Mere curiosity leads me to wonder where Sonar stands in the official sales-figures list. One thing is for sure from an industry insider, Presonus Studio One is higher up the list than Sonar apparently, and maybe the upcoming Studio One ver III will cement its position.



The "statistics" mentioned are hearsay... as we have no tangible figures.
But for sake of example... let's say the statistics are factual.
KPerry pointed this out above, but gross-sales doesn't directly translate to net-profit.
ie: As an individual, if you make $500,000 per year... and you spend $498,000... you're just sliding by.
A company is no different.
Large companies making millions of dollars a year go out of business.
Many individuals making millions a year end up bankrupt.
 
Professionals don't get hired for the gear they use...
They get hired based on skill/reputation... and the ability to deliver.
ie: If you hire David Gilmore to play a solo, are you going to dictate the guitar/strings/amp he uses?
It's all about the end result...
DAW software/hardware is just another tool.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
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#53
Beepster
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/02 11:56:45 (permalink)
Cactus Music
PS. You often see newbies asking on Gear slutz the question "what DAW should I buy?" 
And 9 out of 10 replies the list will not include Sonar. Sonar is not on the Radar of the status- quo. 




The thing that I've seen cited over and over again for that is stability issues, which unfortunately I encountered myself with X1/2 but muddled through anyway. X3 has been absolutely awesome in this regard so hopefully that reputation can be worn away over time... but it might take a long time. Memories are long with musicians/audio dudes and the internet is forever. I have seen quite a few of the more objective "non-believers" changing their tune with X3 though and there are more people flooding the DAW market than ever before, many of whom will never have heard of Pre-Sonus, Steinberg, Proppelerhead, etc and can't afford the one thing they WILL have heard of (Pro Tools) but WILL have heard of Gibson so there is certainly hope some of those beginners will gravitate toward Sonar.
 
I've been saying it for a while now... with the Gibson acquisition and the maturity/stability of X3 I have a feeling Sonar will end up taking a larger share of the market. It is a really cool program with lots of the things a beginner needs for full production which is I why I bought it after heavily researching all the competitors in its price bracket. I MIGHT have gone with Cubase but the version at the time had a LOT of complaints about stability and the package did not seem to be nearly as robust as Sonar X1. When they released the current version and I was on X2 I was kicking myself for NOT going with Cubase (because X2 was peeving me off to no end) but NOW with X3 my original choice turned out to be the best choice.
 
Funny how that all worked out but it goes to show how finicky all this crap can be and how different folks have different needs. I just hope Cake keeps the momentum going which by all indications they are and will. FULL SPEED AHEAD!!!
#54
Grem
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/02 12:20:26 (permalink)
I will have disagree with Randy and Cactus in regards to the GUI.
 
I think that the direction that the developers took with regards to the GUI was a great one. Now that I have given myself enough time to really absorb what this new GUI has to offer, I don't want to go back to the old way/GUI/select tool for nothing. Why? Because I now am able to work much faster than I ever did before. It's that simple! And it's all because of the new GUI.
 
And Randy, Cactus, the concerns you both speak about, I had them!! Exactly the same!! But I stuck to my own commitment I made back with X1; I was going to learn the new way. And that meant letting go of things I really really liked. And I won't lie or mislead you, at times it was a struggle.
 
I even use the PRV in the TV now because of the improvements in the GUI/Smart Tool. I only go to the PRV when I need to work on many midi tracks together. And soon I won't need to do that, once I get use to doing it in the TV. It can be done there.
 
I don't think the GUI is keeping people away. More than anything, I think it's the initial investment needed to get going.

Grem

Michael
 
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#55
rbowser
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/02 12:29:09 (permalink)
GremI will have disagree with Randy and Cactus in regards to the GUI...



I understand you're a fan, Grem, and your enthusiasm is sincere.  I submit that it was an error and fairly pointless to completely re-do the program so that it required learning a new way to do the same routines.  Actual bonafide improvements are always welcome, but to have this disconnect in design and programming from one well-established version to a new one is, IMHO, arbitrary and counter productive.  I'm schlepping my way through, learning the new version, but I resent the time I'm having to put into it, because it's not as if I'm given a better program - it's just a different program.  I could have purchased an entirely different DAW program if I wanted to learn something from square one.
 
Randy

Sonar X3e Studio
Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller
Alesis i|O2 interface
Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz
8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64
with dual monitors
#56
dubdisciple
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/02 12:45:20 (permalink)
Randy, I think the catch-22 with your stance for cakewalk was whether to cater predominantly to the people like you who thought everything was fine the way it was or cater to the chorus of reviews that criticized cakewalk for things like having an unattractive GUI.  Also, another major complaint about Sonar prior to X series was that the workflow was very unintuitive.  For the most part the reviews seem to be better in those area (at least from the magazines and larger blogs).  For me I think it was an improvement.  At the end of the day, no change is going to be greeted with universal improvement.  There will always be those who cling steadfast to what they are familiar with and disparage new ways as somehow being bad for business since they personally do not like the changes. I know it is not a scientifically accurate way to measure, but a sampling of this forum seems to lean towards more people liking than disliking the changes. 
#57
rbowser
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/02 13:19:37 (permalink)
dubdisciple
Randy, I think the catch-22 with your stance for cakewalk was whether to cater predominantly to the people like you who thought everything was fine the way it was or cater to the chorus of reviews that criticized cakewalk for things like having an unattractive GUI...



Thanks for the post, dubdisciple - I'm hip - A lot of people like X3 very much, and wanted change.  You were very right to mention the GUI first - It seems to me that mere cosmetics were indeed a Major consideration for the developers.  Me - I could not care less what a program looks like.  I just want functioning tools, and Sonar 8.5 was extremely functional.
 
All I can speak to are my own feelings - I'm just saying that IMHO (H="honest" more than "humble"--hehe)- all these changes in X3 were arbitrary and unnecessary - I didn't want a new program.  I would probably simply go back to 8.5 - except I can't.  The X3 installation literally killed my 8.5 so it won't open anymore, and nobody can figure out what the problem is.  When X3 is uninstalled, I still get a runtime error.  If I re-install 8.5, same problem.  Here I am in X3land.
 
I'm getting work done, it's not so horrible, but, returning to the thread topic, I wouldn't have been able to vote Sonar as "the best" DAW - but I could have done that just a few years ago.
 
Randy

Sonar X3e Studio
Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller
Alesis i|O2 interface
Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz
8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64
with dual monitors
#58
dubdisciple
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/02 13:28:41 (permalink)
randy..I understand.  I have had programs change and i hated the changes.  I honestly think Cakewalk did consider people like you and just came to the conclusion that they were better off going in a different direction.
 
BTW, have you tried doing a complete uninstall where you wipe out all the cakewalk registry entries?  I have not had 8.5 installed in forever but it did work alongside X1 for me.
#59
Grem
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Re: KVR vote for 'Best Daw' 2014/06/02 13:43:58 (permalink)
dubdisciple
 
BTW, have you tried doing a complete uninstall where you wipe out all the cakewalk registry entries?  I have not had 8.5 installed in forever but it did work alongside X1 for me.




Randy, if you really want to go back to 8.5, and if it were me, I'd do a clean install of the OS and start over. Really nothing like a good clean window!!
 
But I would suggest sticking it out with X3. Now that you have the real manual, you can find out how to do what you want.

Grem

Michael
 
Music PC
i7 2600K; 64gb Ram; 3 256gb SSD, System, Samples, Audio; 1TB & 2TB Project Storage; 2TB system BkUp; RME FireFace 400; Win 10 Pro 64; CWbBL 64, 
Home PC
AMD FX 6300; 8gb Ram; 256 SSD sys; 2TB audio/samples; Realtek WASAPI; Win 10 Home 64; CWbBL 64 
Surface Pro 3
Win 10  i7 8gb RAM; CWbBL 64
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