Kontakt not working properly in Sonar

After several weeks of trying to work this out I think I'm making headway but I really need some advice.
 
First of all I have a powerful desktop PC with a top of the range i7 CPU, 32Gb of Ram, a Titan X graphics card and a Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 Audio interface.  The problem I am having feels like there is a restrictive setting in Sonar limiting the memory or resources Sonar can use.
 
Problem 1:  I build a Kontakt 5 (64 outputs) multi-instrument in Sonar adding Spitfire Audio instruments to the rack.  I get an error on each instrument telling me that each is not initialised and not connected to my DAW.  I assume this is because they have yet to be inputted to a Midi track and outputed through an audio track in Sonar.  I create a multi of 6 instruments each being outputed to its own channel and having its own meter on Kontakt's mixer.  In Sonar each instrument has its own midi and audio tracks.  On the Audio tracks I choose the stereo outputs for each instrument.  Everything works fine.  I can press the keyboard on Kontakt for any of the instruments and I get a full and rich sound.
 
However, if I add a 7th instrument, let's say Bassoon, the first thing I notice is that the audio track assignments are messed up.  Now the 6th instrument, Oboe, using channels 11&12 no longer has the Oboe/aux stereo output but has a Oboe/Bassoon stereo output but still sounds fine with Oboe sound when using Kontakt's little keyboard.  Unfortunately, on the Bassoon (7th instrument) audio track's input I only have a Bassoon Right (Mono) option.  In Kontakt, When I press a note on its keyboard for the Bassoon, I can see the Midi and the sound being generated but nothing is sounding and I can see that no signal is reaching either the Bassoon's midi track or its audio track.
 
It's as if my current setup of Sonar allows so much memory, tracks, resources or something else and no more.
 
Problem 2:  (And, most likely connected to problem 1)  Using the working rack of 6 instruments and 12 tracks (6 midi and 6 audio)  I can insert a note into midi track 1, as well as midi track 2 and even midi track 3 but going beyond this to insert notes into tracks 4 and 5 results in tracks not sounding at all and/or being reduced to almost inaudible volumes.
 
Again, it is as if my system is reaching some predefined limit and shifting resources around to cope.
 
I bought Sonar Platinum three years ago and I have yet to get it to work.  Without adequate support I tend to leave my musical creation and to delve into Graphic art or games design.  I'm exhausted and really need help. 

The list of Kontakt output names is mangled in SONAR's menu if there are more than half a dozen outputs. It's been this way for a long time. The good news is that only the names in the menu are wrong and the actual routings work fine.
 
The obvious solution is to use multiple Kontakt instances in order to not have more than a half a dozen instruments in each. I haven't seen any noticeable performance difference either way, and having less instruments per Kontakt instance simplifies some actions (such as freezing).
 
If that's not possible for some reason, you could for example let SONAR create all the audio tracks along with the correct routings when you insert a Kontakt instance (by ticking the "All Synth Audio Outputs" option in the Insert Soft Synth dialog), and name the tracks "Kontakt output 1", "Kontakt output 2" and so on, so that you'll know which one is which without having to look at the mangled menu at all. Then you can save the setup as a track template for future use.
 
Your other problems sound more like MIDI controller data or routing problems to me, so it might be better to examine them separately one by one.
 
For example, since you mentioned Spitfire, a common pitfall is that some instruments use MIDI CC 1 as a volume controller. If you move the modwheel to zero, or if there are CC1=0 events in your MIDI track, or if SONAR's "Zero Controllers When Play Stops" option is set, the instrument might go silent.
 
Finally, if I recall correctly, the "not initialised and not connected to my DAW" messages might indicate a problem with the audio interface connection.

The messed-up menu is a problem if you assign audio tracks manually after you've inserted a Kontakt instance. You don't have to do it that way. SONAR can do the hard work for you and add audio tracks automatically for all Kontakt outputs at the same time Kontakt is inserted, and the output assignments (Kontakt outputs 1/2 -> Stereo Track 1, etc.) will work correctly no matter what the menu texts say.
 
If you follow the link Steve Karl posted, you'll find his great step-by-step instructions on how to create the setup and keep things organized. I use a similar method, and it has worked well for me.
 

djwolf
The other issue is that even if I created a second instance of Kontakt as you suggest, it wouldn't do any good because as soon as I start putting music (with no controllers - note events only) into the tracks my entire system falls apart.

 
Does that happen with all Kontakt instruments? For example, if you create a test project that uses only some simple Kontakt factory instruments instead of large and complex Spitfire libraries, do you see the same problems?

Sorry to take so long to respond.
 
Many years ago I wrote some orchestral music using a rather primitive notation package that utilized some really bad sound fonts - sf2.   Each instrument's part may have had 2 or 3 different instruments/tracks layered to "fix" the poor sound font or to make up for other shortfalls.  My goal is to recreate that music using true symphonic instruments which means I don't know what instruments I'll need until I need them.
 
I'm stuck with Kontakt since the symphonic, percussion, and world libraries I purchased represent a multi-thousand dollar investment and since the input side of getting keyboards, soft synths, and samplers to connect effortlessly is half the work of any DAW one would think that "known issues" at the "setup" stage for new users where refunds would be a concern, fixing this would be the company's highest priority and not doing so would be a PR blight of immense proportions.
 
I had Sonar's "Zero Controllers when play stops" selected.  I can see how it would be a default setting and how deselecting it would be unwise but I did so regardless.  After a reboot I found it didn't change anything.  I tested it in a Sonar setup with 6 instruments each with a track containing one note that ends after 10 bars.  For purely testing purposes the top instrument starts at bar 1 the second track at bar 2, etc and each has a different note so I can both see and hear whether a track is sounding.  However, before I inserted these notes - 6 in total - 1 to a track, I saved the project as "Stage 1".  In "Stage 1" all I have are the six instruments in Kontakt with each having a "Midi In" track and an "Audio Out" track without anything in the tracks themselves.  And, it all works fine.  When I press Kontakt's keyboard for each instrument they sound at their full volume, both meters on Kontakt's instrument panels show sound being generated and sent and the tracks in Sonar show sound being received and sent.
 
Loading "Stage 2" which is the same project with the same settings but with 6 notes added over 6 tracks, tracks 1, 2 and 3 play at a lower volume (understandable as the track volume now says 101 - I assume the track volume without the note data was 127) but track 4 doesn't sound at all.  Not only that but pressing the Kontakt keyboard for instrument 4 shows on the instrument panel that Midi is being engaged, voices are being used but no signal is being sent as the instrument panel's meter shows no life.  Instruments 5 and 6 are responding but judging by the meters in Kontakt I would guess at a volume around 60-80.  However, that is not what I am hearing.  For these instruments I had to turn up my headphones and my sound interface to full to even detect that sound was being generated.
 
Whatever the problem, it happened when I put notes (no other controllers) into my tracks.  Not only did this affect Sonar's performance but it echoed back to Kontakt and I don't think that E5 or G6 are the problem.  That all was well before I put notes in, exludes Spitfire, Kontakt and Focusrite (my Audio device) as being the source of the problem and lays it at the feet of Sonar's track processing.  That is, by placing a note into a track, settings within the track like "Volume - 101" became active and something within my Sonar Installation is corrupt.
 
I need to reinstall the program.  And, I'm going to need to download a fresh copy along with REAL technical support for that.  Unfortunately, email support sends me to the knowledge base which is useless.
 
Otherwise I'll be shopping for a new DAW. 

There are many of us here that use Kontakt. It's a bread and butter Virtual instrument that forms the basis of much music created in project studios. This forum and others would be awash with threads about problems if half of what you say was true in respect to Sonars ability to host Kontakt.
For your own good stop explaining and start listening. You've been given much good advice from people who clearly now how to use Kontakt while you dont.
Sorry if I'm being blunt but the problem is you not the Software.

mudgel
There are many of us here that use Kontakt. It's a bread and butter Virtual instrument that forms the basis of much music created in project studios. This forum and others would be awash with threads about problems if half of what you say was true in respect to Sonars ability to host Kontakt.
For your own good stop explaining and start listening. You've been given much good advice from people who clearly now how to use Kontakt while you dont.
Sorry if I'm being blunt but the problem is you not the Software.

+1

Those are 5 of the best excuses I have ever seen

djwolf
 
No, possibly, not at all.  All my tracks are generating sound beautifully as long as there are no more than 6 of them and none of them have any midi data in the midi tracks.  Apparently, notes are the problem.
 

If I understand this correctly, your tracks are generating sound as long as there is no MIDI information.
What exactly is generating this sound?  Without MIDI to tell the synth what to play, there shouldn't be any sound.

djwolf
3)  I don't want the configurations that people have suggested and I can't work in that way.  I select what I need as I create and I don't want anything preselected.

So it seems you're intentionally doing it the slowest possible way and allowing for the possibility of mistakes in your in/out configuration.

This comment below from my first post makes Kontakt pre configured to work flawlessly with Sonar.
1) See this post for configuring Kontakt outputs:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3619624
That post, if you set things up that way, will save you a lot of headaches.

djwolf
My outputs are fine.  I use the "batch functions / Clear output section and create one individual channel for each loaded instrument" function which does the job.
 
As for the error on the instrument panels, technically they aren't connected to Sonar since they haven't been routed through Sonar at this point.  The second I route the first instrument into a Sonar Midi track the error disappears on all instruments.  It's not a problem but it could be a clue to someone with a good understanding of this system.
 

KAV
The list of Kontakt output names is mangled in SONAR's menu if there are more than half a dozen outputs. It's been this way for a long time. The good news is that only the names in the menu are wrong and the actual routings work fine.

No, the names in the menu disappear so they don't work fine and I'm rather shocked by this.  That a professional DAW that has quite a few competitors to deal with would allow such a monumental bug that limits its tracks to 6 instruments wasn't addressed like their HQ was on fire?  But perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, KAV.
 
I say that because maybe you have misunderstood me.  My instrument and track names are Violins 1, Violins 2, Viola, Cello, Basses, and oboes.  Bassoon, Harp, Flute, Trombone and Trumpet will be added when I can work out how.  The naming is done by the batch command I mentioned earlier.  I have to look at the mangled menu because for each instrument I have to choose one of three options: Left (Mono), Right (Mono) and Stereo.  To be clear the menu I am alluding to is the top drop down menu button on an audio track.
 
The other issue is that even if I created a second instance of Kontakt as you suggest, it wouldn't do any good because as soon as I start putting music (with no controllers - note events only) into the tracks my entire system falls apart.
 

This (below) will solve all of your output name problems in Sonar.
They will show as st1 through st16 with nothing else there, once you finish a template.
Anything above and beyond st16 including the aux tracks and the unassigned tracks will then be gone.

Ignoring this because you don't want any pre configured solutions is (in my opinion) shooting yourself in the foot.

1) See this post for configuring Kontakt outputs:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3619624
That post, if you set things up that way, will save you a lot of headaches.
 
 

djwolf
The second I route the first instrument into a Sonar Midi track the error disappears on all instruments.  It's not a problem but it could be a clue to someone with a good understanding of this system.

The above 'implies' that you are creating your midi tracks first and then attepting the midi routing/connection to Sonar by changing something in Kontakt?

"If" that is the case (and if it is even possible ... it's been so long I can't remember)
it is the most difficult and slowest method possible.


When you load instrumets in Kontakt they automatically get midi track output numbers assigned ascending from 1 through 16. You never have to even think about that.

In Sonar:
is where you assign the destination of the midi track. ***
Point it to Kontakt and then point it to a specific midi channel.

"IF" you build a template of 16 midi tracks you'll never have to do those assignments manually.
Add the 16 audio outs to your track template and the time and work saved is well worth it.
 
***
You can point more than one midi track at a time to talk to Kontakt.
Highlight them all
Choose Tracks > Select Track Outputs > Midi Outputs (dropdown menu) > Kontakt 5 (number of Instance)
 
You will have to manually assign the channels.
That's why I suggest a template.
Do it once ... never need to do it again.

What Sonar audio outs to Kontakt look like once we create a 16 track output template in Kontakt:

 

djwolf
 
Once I have up to six instruments in Kontakt's multi-rack, and each instrument is routed correctly to a Sonar track, I test that each instrument is sounding by selecting each instrument in the rack and then left clicking on a note on Kontakt's keyboard.  For each instrument I see the meters on Kontakt's instrument panels and on its mixer panel respond to the note being sounded.  In addition, I see the instrument's audio track responding appropriately to the note and I hear the instrument at its full volume.
 
It is the corresponding midi tracks where the error is occurring.  If I put notes in two midi tracks all is well but as I put more data in more tracks (like 4 tracks) then I start getting no sound from tracks.

We're still not getting convincing confirmation that your Sonar midi tracks are correctly routed to Kontakt and that each of those midi tracks is sending to a specific midi channel.
It would also be good for you to confirm that each of your instruments in Kontakt has its own midi channel and that no instruments are on the same midi channel.

djwolf
 
It is the corresponding midi tracks where the error is occurring.  If I put notes in two midi tracks all is well but as I put more data in more tracks (like 4 tracks) then I start getting no sound from tracks. 
 

What method do you use to enter the notes? Do you hear the notes sounding when entering them?
 
Are there any changes in the 4th instrument's GUI that could explain why it stops producing sound? For example, do you see an articulation change or any dynamics or expression type sliders that have somehow moved to zero?
 
It would still help to know whether this happens with all instruments or with just some. So, what happens if you replace the 4th instrument with some simple factory library synth and re-test? (Apologies if you've already answered this and I have missed it.)