Helpful ReplyLP EQ and LP MB presets for vinyl mastering

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mgustavo
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2017/08/22 11:42:35 (permalink)

LP EQ and LP MB presets for vinyl mastering

Hi! I posted this thread on Sonar forum but I wonder if this one is more appropriated?
 
It happens I've been converting some vinyl records to digital audio and I noticed there are presets on both LP EQ and LP MB referring to vinyl mastering, and I wonder if these presets would help people to master for vinyl records, as opposite to master for digital?

I was thinking if it could help me because I've noticed sounds playing on the turntable look wider than when they are converted to digital.
Despite I have a simple audio interface and monitors I wonder if these presets could simulate frequencies my system won't record?
Also I've been doing 44 KHz / 16 bits recordings, and when I tried to record with 48 KHz / 24 bits I had the impression I could hear more details.
 
I tried to listen what changed with the plugins but my room has no acoustic treatment, and I gave up trying. However I asked a colleague to make some bass traps to help me hearing better. I hope this works!

Best regards,

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batsbrew
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Re: LP EQ and LP MB presets for vinyl mastering 2017/08/22 14:24:51 (permalink)
you have to understand the limitations of vinyl.
and the way the machine cuts the master.
and how it's duplicated.
 
before you get to mastering for vinyl...
me, i'd never trust a preset for mastering for vinyl....
that said, there's nothing wrong with using it as a starting point,
as long as i knew what the target was.
 
 

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mgustavo
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Re: LP EQ and LP MB presets for vinyl mastering 2017/08/23 11:47:42 (permalink)
Hi, batsbrew! Thanks for the reply!
Yes, I read an article on internet about mastering for vinyl, because I saw these presets on Cakewalk plugins.
 
Actually, I'm only converting vinyl records to CD, and I think my Behringer UCA202 interface is not able to capture all the frequencies. So I was hoping these presets could compensate that limitation.
I do this job to earn extra money, and I tried recording on 48 KHz / 24 bits, and it seems I could hear more details, but then it would change my workflow, as I would have to burn a DVD, and some old systems won't play it.
 
Also, as I don't have acoustic treatment, neither experience, I couldn't perceive if applying the plugins could get a better sound compared to the vinyl playing on the turntable.
 
Also tlw replied this thread, but I guess he tried to edit it and was caught by forum's spam blocker.
post edited by mgustavo - 2017/08/23 15:10:27

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drewfx1
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Re: LP EQ and LP MB presets for vinyl mastering 2017/08/23 17:33:56 (permalink)
mgustavo
Actually, I'm only converting vinyl records to CD, and I think my Behringer UCA202 interface is not able to capture all the frequencies. So I was hoping these presets could compensate that limitation.

 
What frequencies are you talking about? Above about 16kHz vinyl is mostly noise - especially after it gets played, hence in large part the use of RIAA equalization pre-emphasis/deemphasis in vinyl.
 

I tried recording on 48 KHz / 24 bits, and it seems I could hear more details
 



Almost certainly imaginary or you're hearing something else that was changed by accident. 
 
The signal frequency difference between 44.1 and 48 kHz amounts to about a 1/2 step musically speaking, and few people can hear much of anything at those frequencies anyway - unless it's at extreme volume and all at that single frequency (i.e. a high frequency sine wave, not loud music with lower level high frequency overtones). 
 
The difference in bit depths equals less noise and nothing more. But that's irrelevant if the quantization noise (plus any dither) is buried below other noise, as is commonly the case. Note that vinyl is only the equivalent of something like 12 to 14 bit resolution at its absolute best.
 
The main benefit of recording at 24 bits is allows one to leave lots of headroom for unpredictable signals to ensure no clipping without having to worry about the quantization noise at all.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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mgustavo
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Re: LP EQ and LP MB presets for vinyl mastering 2017/08/24 00:57:23 (permalink)
Hi, drewfx1! 
Thanks for your reply!
 
I think I'm understanding better how things work! But since you asked me, I'd like to say that when I said my interface can't record some frequencies it's because the digitized vinyl music sounds "thinner", with few bass, if compared to the original sound on the turntable.
The turntable is connected to the mixer, and the mixer to the notebook, via UCA202 interface (which I believe is a simple interface). Also the monitors are connected to the mixer's 'Rec Out', so I listen to the turntable 'directly'.
I was trying to tweak with some plugins to make the digitized music sound closer to the original, so I wondered if the LP EQ and LP MB presets could help.
 
Also, I've noticed the vinyl volume is lower than music playing on the radio, for example, so I raise it up to look more professional (actually this is the only improvement I do).

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drewfx1
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Re: LP EQ and LP MB presets for vinyl mastering 2017/08/24 17:38:33 (permalink)
Did you do the RIAA deemphasis? Traditionally it isn't part of the turntable (I'm not sure, but modern turntables may have a built-in phono preamp that does the RIAA), but is built into a dedicated "phono" input that has a preamp that boosts the low level phono signal to line level and applies the appropriate RIAA EQ curve. If you're connecting a "traditional" turntable to a generic (i.e. not "phono") input, then you will need to apply the appropriate RIAA curve yourself.
 
Note that RIAA pre-emphasis (before the record is cut) boosts the highs and cuts the lows and deemphasis (traditionally in the phono preamp) does the reverse.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization
 

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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batsbrew
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Re: LP EQ and LP MB presets for vinyl mastering 2017/08/24 19:07:54 (permalink)
drewfx1
Did you do the RIAA deemphasis? Traditionally it isn't part of the turntable (I'm not sure, but modern turntables may have a built-in phono preamp that does the RIAA), but is built into a dedicated "phono" input that has a preamp that boosts the low level phono signal to line level and applies the appropriate RIAA EQ curve. If you're connecting a "traditional" turntable to a generic (i.e. not "phono") input, then you will need to apply the appropriate RIAA curve yourself.
 
Note that RIAA pre-emphasis (before the record is cut) boosts the highs and cuts the lows and deemphasis (traditionally in the phono preamp) does the reverse.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization
 




this, is what i was referring to in my first response...
thanks drew

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#7
mgustavo
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Re: LP EQ and LP MB presets for vinyl mastering 2017/08/24 22:40:02 (permalink)
Yes, I have a Bozak Madisson preamp. Also thanks for the article about RIAA equalization, I'll read it soon.
I just said the volume was low because I play the digitized music on my stereo system, to preview how it will sound on a domestic system, and to prevent my clients to get bored with the sound quality. 
So I compare it to commercial CDs and radio music, which are louder, but I'm getting in account an article I read on a music forum, related to actions taken by Spotify and Youtube to normalize their loudness playback volume.
I searched for actual music releases on Youtube and it seems they are also reducing their loudness volume, compared to 90s productions, for example.
 
Well, thank you! These are helpful replies!
Also I'm hoping some bass traps I ordered will help me listen better to these sounds!

Sonar Professional x64, Sonar Artist x64, Sonar X3e x64, Music Creator 6, Kontakt 5 player
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Behringer UCA 202, M-Audio Key Rig 49, Edifier R1900TIII speaker
Phonic AM 105FX mixer, Samson Q7 mic, Yamaha C40 acoustic guitar, Condor RX-20S guitar
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interpolated
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Re: LP EQ and LP MB presets for vinyl mastering 2017/08/26 08:10:06 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mgustavo 2017/08/26 14:09:57
The actual EQ curve for RIAA looks like +20dB boost starting the low-end which basically rolls of any mids and highs after 1KHz (on playback). So I'm supposing the pre-emphasis is the polar opposite of this. What I am going to try to do as a means of experimentation and curiosity is try to recreate the same thing in Sonar L-Phase EQ.  It turns out Audacity has this preset and uses XML to get the preset values across, so it will be a case of a copying that close as possible.
 
Just for extra geekyness 
 
http://www.tanker.se/lidstrom/riaa.htm
 
 
 
post edited by interpolated - 2017/08/26 08:31:14

I have computer stuff.
 
https://soundcloud.com/sigmadelta
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interpolated
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Re: LP EQ and LP MB presets for vinyl mastering 2017/08/26 18:12:16 (permalink)
OK found this.
 
http://www.nullmedium.de/dev/audioplugins/
 
Seems to be free. OK so downloaded the RIAA plug-in which provides the default/inverse curves. I need to find out if Waves Abbey Road Vinyl applies the RIAA curve. I presume it does. Or maybe it just models the tone? That plug-in does not worketh.
 
Final edit honest....
 
AR Vinyl does apply an RIAA curve however this is hidden from the user interface. Tells you in Chapter 4, I presume it being made by Waves it does the job correctly.
 
One of the last tracks I did uses that plug-in and I automated the actual tonearm position for "authenticity". 
 

I have computer stuff.
 
https://soundcloud.com/sigmadelta
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