jps
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 06:46:10
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bitflipper
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 10:36:16
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Thanks for contributing to the discussion, Jan! I'm downloading your file now... Steve, I suspect the problem is that they just haven't scaled up their server(s) yet for gobs of data going in and out. Buying hosting services is expensive, and it's unlikely theirs is a profit-making enterprise yet.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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bitflipper
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 11:33:31
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Listened to the "slammed" version. Interesting, isn't it, that even though the waveform looks like "more" the actual sound is noticeably "less". Less definition, less body, less clarity. Average RMS was -7 dB, fairly typical by contemporary standards. If you look at the waveform, specifically the last few seconds of it, the limitations of high compression levels becomes obvious; there is just no place left to go when you get to a crescendo.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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ltb
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 11:41:49
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yorolpal
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 11:50:37
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Landr...cleaner, tighter.
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bitflipper
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 12:01:17
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Jan's version came out really nice. Comparable loudness to the Landr version, but slightly higher peak levels (-0.09 vs. -0.29 vs. -1.0 in my original master). Jan went for a more balanced EQ, slightly brighter than mine but not to the point of harshness. Dynamic range was reduced, but to my ear did not harm the song at all. All in all, Jan's treatment was just brilliant. Metaphorically, that is, not spectrally. Here's a link to a 256 kb/s MP3 (to match the other versions) so you can give it a listen. [NOTE: SoundCloud streams at 128 kb/s, but these files are all downloadable in their original resolution of 256 kb/s, and in the case of the unmastered version as a lossless FLAC]
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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jps
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 12:48:44
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bitflipper Jan's version came out really nice. Comparable loudness to the Landr version, but slightly higher peak levels (-0.09 vs. -0.29 vs. -1.0 in my original master). Jan went for a more balanced EQ, slightly brighter than mine but not to the point of harshness. Dynamic range was reduced, but to my ear did not harm the song at all. All in all, Jan's treatment was just brilliant. Metaphorically, that is, not spectrally. Here's a link to a 256 kb/s MP3 (to match the other versions) so you can give it a listen. [NOTE: SoundCloud streams at 128 kb/s, but these files are all downloadable in their original resolution of 256 kb/s, and in the case of the unmastered version as a lossless FLAC] Glad you liked it :-) Here is what I used and did : First Har-Bal for eq balancing http://www.har-bal.com/ Import track to Sonar X3 . Following plugs used : Pusher to breath some new life to the track (just a tadd) http://www.thehouseofkush.com/#!ubk-pusher/cqirSheppie for widening and ambience (just a tadd) http://dallashodgson.info/articles/OpenAmbienceProject/ this is a great plug and it`s free :-)) 32 bit only . Cosmos http://www.nomadfactory.com/products/cosmos/ for limiting and then some :-)) All the best Jan
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yorolpal
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 13:04:29
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I need to listen to Jan's version at the studio. On my iPad it sounds a bit harsh and over limited...natch. Probably sounds fine on decent speakers. But then that's why we check our mixes on crap speakers...that's where they get listened to the most.
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bitflipper
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 13:16:33
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Cosmos and Har-Bal who'da guessed? Goes to show you don't necessarily need boutique plugins to get results.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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yorolpal
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 13:24:19
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Cosmos is a true wonder. Killer diller.
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mixmkr
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 13:25:09
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HarBal is great. I've used it for balancing backing tracks, used in live situations, to keep the FOH guys happy. I've also *mastered* a couple CDs with it as well, and I thought it compared to the online guys that might have a *rep* in the forums, that you pay $400, because they have nice speakers and a Manley something or other...
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jps
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 14:03:24
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Have in mind that I did this as a quicky :-)) Bombarded the track with various plugs and used the elimination tactic :-) "Does this sound good , yep ...does this help the track , na no soup for you etc...." :-)) All I say , go with the flow and be moderate with what you throw at a track :-)) Somtimes nothing at all . All the best Jan
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Eddie TX
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 14:11:39
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I must say, of the three mastering jobs my favorite was Jan's. Cool song, too ... nice work all around, guys! Har-Bal ... I've heard a lot about it but never tried it (seems there is no way to demo?). Can it really do things that other tools like Ozone cannot? Cheers, Eddie
Sonar X3 Producer / Win 10 The future exists in all directions.
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Bajan Blue
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 15:08:30
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Really interesting guys, and on my "crappy" Computer speakers Jan's does sound good - i think best is a bit subjective as to personal taste but I feel the main stuff I want to hear does sound a bit clearer / sharper - does just border on the harsh but on my system very acceptable. I wonder if anyone had seen this - I had an email from JJR shop(I think) about it a few weeks back but never got around to checking it out http://www.jrrshop.com/rob-chiarelli-signature-series-mixbuss-liteNigel
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Eddie TX
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 15:15:56
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Bajan Blue I wonder if anyone had seen this - I had an email from JJR shop(I think) about it a few weeks back but never got around to checking it out http://www.jrrshop.com/rob-chiarelli-signature-series-mixbuss-lite Nigel
I bought that just out of curiosity shortly after it came out (I think I paid about $15). Decent track limiter with useful quick-EQ settings, but not so good on the mix bus. Pumps way too easily. Probably worth the asking price, but you could get Barricade for about the same money, which is a far better tool IMHO. And don't forget free alternatives like Limiter No. 6 and LoudMax. Cheers, Eddie
Sonar X3 Producer / Win 10 The future exists in all directions.
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Bajan Blue
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 15:21:28
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Thanks Eddie I have to say I did view this with a little suspicion! And pretty much assumed it would perform as you have described - so thanks again, you've saved me the trouble of looking into it!!! Cheers Nigel
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Soundblend
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 15:30:00
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Hey Bit did a quick " Master " of your song, at amateur level. Gonna try uppload a flac file to Dropbox..... got bad conn atm, but ill try.
post edited by Soundblend - 2014/06/15 15:42:51
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S.L.I.P.
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 15:56:20
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Eddie TX Har-Bal ... I've heard a lot about it but never tried it (seems there is no way to demo?). Can it really do things that other tools like Ozone cannot? Cheers, Eddie
I believe that there is a demo of Har-Bal that you can try. The unique thing about Har-Bal 3, is the ability to split the track along song structure, to be able to work on different parts of the song. Here is a link to a fascinating tutorial that Pavo did, remastering a U2 song: http://www.har-bal.com/help/tutorials.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KUj9MUODEU
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Soundblend
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 16:04:03
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Here's my quick " mastering " attempt, 256kbps MP3 : https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/limo_JanKrakeli.mp3?_subject_uid=270438942&w=AACYM9zD8UH0idpDFPB8h78qcLeEiO4eRMyLaNsLy7QKEw Used Wavelab elements 7 ( 4 eff slots ) slot 1: Steven slate VCC slot 2: Sonimus SonEQ Pro slot 3: Steven slate VBC ( Demo ) used the FG-RED and the FG-MU Compressors. slot 4: George Yohng, W1 Limiter Mixed in a nasty untreated reflective room ( my living room ) and using my old Sony STR-414L Stereo Amp and my Dantax Century Main 150w speakers, as "monitor's The treble may be a tad to much, but i did it to bring some elements up, also to get it open sounding ! Dynamic range is around -14 / -13db with peak at -9.4db at max. Hi bit, what is that click sound we can hear sounds like dark sounding "handclap" very upront sounding, it is a bit annoying me thinks ! The drums at the end of the song seems to rush off, at its own.. compared to the beat of the guitars ? maybe it is just my ears ... Other than that i love the tune, nice work there, Dave .
post edited by Soundblend - 2014/06/17 10:55:51
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bitflipper
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 18:14:40
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I've always maintained that if the mastering actions are drastic it's a sign that the mix isn't done yet. Some elements of the mix did sound better with the brighter master, but not all of them, so it made sense to revisit the mix and brighten up those things that seemed to benefit most, mainly drums. I've done that now, but I won't post the new mix lest I muddy the waters for this mastering experiment. But my gosh, it's apparent that I've learned a few things, or at least gotten better at them, since I first mixed this one just four years ago. Gives me hope. Thanks for joining in, Soundblend. Not bad for a living-room mix! A little bright to my ear, but very dynamic and punchy with high crest factors - just the way I like 'em.
post edited by bitflipper - 2014/06/15 18:51:17
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Eddie TX
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 19:59:29
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Bajan Blue Thanks Eddie I have to say I did view this with a little su****ion! And pretty much assumed it would perform as you have described - so thanks again, you've saved me the trouble of looking into it!!! Cheers Nigel
Hey, I was just revisiting this plugin, since you reminded me I had it ( ). I threw it on the master bus of a song I'm working on, and wouldn't you know it ... I liked what it did! One of the EQ settings ("Clear") seemed to brighten and tighten things up a bit, which suited the mix nicely. And I didn't get the pumping that I'd noticed before, although I didn't push it that much -- this doesn't seem to be one of those limiters that can get a mix really loud without distorting. Well, just goes to show ya, YMMV. I doubt this thing will work every time, but like I said, it's probably worth its price. Back to the auto-mastering topic, I wonder if this Landr thing is really much better than choosing a preset in Ozone or something. I don't call myself a Mastering Engineer (far from it), but I do know that there's a LOT of art involved, which would be very difficult at best to automate. Cheers, Eddie
Sonar X3 Producer / Win 10 The future exists in all directions.
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Guitarpima
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 21:19:57
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I gave Bitflipper's track a go as well. Here's what I came up with. I used HMB to master this. I would be interested in anything, good or bad, anyone has to say. BTW Bit. Excellent bit of tunage there. This could easily translate into a Reggae song. The only thing I didn't like was the hand claps. I thought they could either be eliminated or set off to the side and rolled the bottom off a bit more plus a touch of reverb.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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yorolpal
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/15 23:39:20
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Welp...I'll give you a REMIXERS perspective which may or may not help you in any way whatsoever. Any track can be redone in, for all practical purposes, an infinite number of ways. This includes subtle mix changes all the way to full blown remixes that can hardly be recognized by the original composer/artist. Mastering is a way to bring clarity, balance and cohesiveness ...whatever that means to you, to a stereo mix. But with today's technology you can have unprecedented control over said mix. Quite literally the sky is the limit. What's right and what's wrong...what's good and what's better??? Total crapshoot. I imagine what Bit wants is his original track to sound "as good possible"...whatever that might mean. To me it means he wants it to sound good "to him". Fairly subjective, no? I think he's wise to remain delusional and do his own so called "mastering". At least that way he has no one to blame but himself...and no one to take the praise but himself as well.
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S.L.I.P.
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/16 01:00:23
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Really good song, bit! Liked jan's version, but to me a good song, trumps a great mix or mastering job!
post edited by S.L.I.P. - 2014/06/16 01:01:41
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S.L.I.P.
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/16 01:00:36
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jps
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/16 01:27:00
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I could never become a mastering engineer because those people need to stay objective to the material in hand . Boring if you ask me :-)) All the best Jan
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ohgrant
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/16 08:50:56
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I guess I'm of the mind that if a composer, singer, musical performers can be replaced by software, so can a mastering engineer. But I'm not so sure we are to that point yet. I do think that the Landr system may offer a decent alternative for home studio folks with limited mastering tools but so far I'm thinking they can only save you the cost of ozone or other mastering tool. Real cool tune Dave, I had a quick go at ghetto mastering it. Ghetto because of the skill level of the Mastering engineer, me. Nothing ghetto about the tools used though. https://www.dropbox.com/s...ydr9/Limomst%20wav.wav
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bitflipper
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/16 14:33:59
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Guitarpima I gave Bitflipper's track a go as well. Here's what I came up with. I used HMB to master this. I would be interested in anything, good or bad, anyone has to say. BTW Bit. Excellent bit of tunage there. This could easily translate into a Reggae song. The only thing I didn't like was the hand claps. I thought they could either be eliminated or set off to the side and rolled the bottom off a bit more plus a touch of reverb.
Cool, I finally get to hear the magical Harrison MixBus. Sounds good. Louder than mine - I'm guessing you used a bus compressor, judging from the compressed dynamics - but still in the sweet range (IMO) and conservative peaks. These images show how you get more loudness without actually changing the average RMS (at the obvious cost of reduced micro-dynamics): I also hear a little additional brightness. Can I assume that some of that can be attributed to the console emulator? Sounds like you also gave the very low end a little boost. One thing I've picked out to listen to in comparing these masters is the quiet organ and subsequent build-up to the crescendo at the end. Pulling up overall loudness can have the effect of diluting the impact of such risers because the quiet part's less quiet and the loud part maxes out too soon. Yours preserved that dynamic well, I think. Interesting comment about the handclaps. Yeah, they're cheesy (TTS-1) but I'd mixed them low and in time with the snare with the intention of adding texture to the snare rather than being identifiable as handclaps. I'd even forgotten they were in there. When you mentioned them my first thought was "wait a minute...there are handclaps in there?" and had to go look at the project. But since nearly all of the remasters have involved boosting the upper-mids, and the handclaps already had a 4 KHz boost on them, they have consequently become more audible than in the original. To the point where, like you, I no longer like them so much because instead of reinforcing the snare they now stand out on their own. And I absolutely hate that tired old Roland fake-handclap sound! The lesson here is that mastering choices can (and usually do) alter the mix. I think it's a good argument for mixing into a mastering chain even if you don't intend on doing the final mastering yourself. BTW, at 3:47 those same handclaps are heard in reverse, which I thought was a cool effect.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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bitflipper
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/16 14:42:20
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yorolpal ...I think he's wise to remain delusional and do his own so called "mastering". At least that way he has no one to blame but himself...and no one to take the praise but himself as well.
Well said, ol' pal. That's really the gist of it, ain't it? Unlike people such as yourself who spend most of their day trying to please somebody else (i.e. paying clients), for those of us who enjoy the luxury of being primarily hobbyists it's all about self-expression. Being able to say, at the end of the day, "this was made by me". Much more civilized than spray-painting freeway overpasses, I think.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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yorolpal
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Re: Landr automatic mastering
2014/06/16 14:52:14
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And turning out great music to boot!
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