Helpful ReplyLaptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SATA

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aidanodr
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2018/01/23 17:52:34 (permalink)

Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SATA

Hi Guys,
 
Im not sure why I never thought of this .. and me, years in IT and puters :D .. But the idea of replacing the DVD drive in your laptop with a HDD CADDY.
 
I have a Dell Inspiron 17" 7737 Core i5 with 16GB Ram and 1TB sata.
 
So I am considering dumping the unused DVD Drive and replacing it with this:
 
https://hddcaddy.com/en/dell-hdd-caddy/567-dell-inspiron-17-7000-hdd-caddy.html
 

 
Pop my 1TB Sata into that for DATA D: drive. Then buy a Crucial 1TB SSD as my main drive from here:

http://eu.crucial.com/eur/en/ct1000mx500ssd1
 
Any one else here do this? Used a HDD Caddy? 

Thoughts

Aidan
post edited by aidanodr - 2018/01/23 18:24:10
#1
Starise
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/23 19:11:12 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2018/01/26 14:36:03
Sounds like a great idea. You can still buy a usb dvd drive if the need ever arises. I wouldn't invest too much in an older laptop. For those who use a laptop and have huge sample libraries or lots of project files, hard drive space can be like real estate in Hawaii.

Intel 5820K O.C. 4.4ghz, ASRock Extreme 4 LGA 2011-v3, 16 gig DDR4, ,
3 x Samsung SATA III 500gb SSD, 2X 1 Samsung 1tb 7200rpm outboard, Win 10 64bit, 
Laptop HP Omen i7 16gb 2/sdd with Focusrite interface.
 CbB, Studio One 4 Pro, Mixcraft 8, Ableton Live 10 
 
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#2
aidanodr
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/23 19:16:10 (permalink)
Starise
Sounds like a great idea. You can still buy a usb dvd drive if the need ever arises. I wouldn't invest too much in an older laptop. For those who use a laptop and have huge sample libraries or lots of project files, hard drive space can be like real estate in Hawaii.




Well, in my case this laptop is spot on. Only bottle neck is the Sata HDD for my DAWs and VSTis. Buy an SSD drive for it .. I can use that drive also in Newer laptop if that happens

Though it is an older laptop it is still zippy and nice to work with. Also has an NVIDIA Card in it :D
 
 
#3
jimfogle
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/24 02:54:29 (permalink)
Prior to spending the money you may want to run a program like CPU-Z just to learn a little more about the current hardware inside your laptop.  For instance, after running the program I found out my laptop has a hard drive that spins at 5400 rpm and is connected to a SATA-2 buss with a data transfer rate of 3 GB per second.
 
What that means realistically in my case is replacing the hard drive with a SSD drive will change read speed somewhat but not as much as you would expect.
 
https://www.cpuid.com/softwares/cpu-z.html

Jim F
Cakewalk by Bandlab (CbB)
Sonar Home Studio V23.9.0 build 32
Music Creator 6
Band-in-a-Box, Audacity, ChordPulse
Win 7, i3 cpu, 8Gig ram, 480 Gig Dell Laptop
http://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
 
 
#4
abacab
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/24 15:04:21 (permalink)
jimfogle
Prior to spending the money you may want to run a program like CPU-Z just to learn a little more about the current hardware inside your laptop.  For instance, after running the program I found out my laptop has a hard drive that spins at 5400 rpm and is connected to a SATA-2 buss with a data transfer rate of 3 GB per second.
 
What that means realistically in my case is replacing the hard drive with a SSD drive will change read speed somewhat but not as much as you would expect.
 
https://www.cpuid.com/softwares/cpu-z.html




I wouldn't worry about the SATA-II limits.  My desktop mobo only has SATA-II, and when I swapped my 7200RPM HDD for a SSD (SATA-III capable), there was still a huge jump in performance.  It's definitely worth it!!!
 
It's like 100x faster on the random reads/writes.  It does max out below the physical limits (300MB/s) of SATA-II on the sequential reads/writes, but that is still over 2x the speed I get on my 7200RPM data HDD.
 

 

DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ... 
#5
abacab
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/24 15:12:04 (permalink)
aidanodr
Hi Guys,
 
Im not sure why I never thought of this .. and me, years in IT and puters :D .. But the idea of replacing the DVD drive in your laptop with a HDD CADDY.
 
I have a Dell Inspiron 17" 7737 Core i5 with 16GB Ram and 1TB sata.
 
So I am considering dumping the unused DVD Drive and replacing it with this:
 
https://hddcaddy.com/en/dell-hdd-caddy/567-dell-inspiron-17-7000-hdd-caddy.html
 

 
Pop my 1TB Sata into that for DATA D: drive. Then buy a Crucial 1TB SSD as my main drive from here:

http://eu.crucial.com/eur/en/ct1000mx500ssd1
 
Any one else here do this? Used a HDD Caddy? 

Thoughts

Aidan




I have heard that works well, and many have said that to use a laptop for serious DAW work, it is always wise to get one with an extra drive bay.  More like a desktop config that way!
 
I have heard a few issues with some laptop BIOS not wanting to recognize the SSD, if both drives are connected initially.  The recommendation was to first clone your boot drive to the new SSD, disconnect the HDD, then connect only the SSD to the main drive bay for the first boot, let the BIOS get settled, then add the secondary drive.
 
May be worth looking at a 7200rpm laptop drive for that caddy, if performance is the goal, or even a 2nd SSD! 
 
Good luck!

DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ... 
#6
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/24 16:23:29 (permalink)
Off-the-shelf PC laptops are fine if you're working with ASIO buffer sizes of 256-samples or above.
 
Working with super small ASIO buffer sizes is where they're problematic.
ie: If you try playing large/complex sample libraries (like The Grandeur for Kontakt) at ASIO buffer size of 64-samples (or lower), that's where the wheels start to fall off.  
 
Even with a well-spec'd recent make model (7700QH, 16GB RAM, M.2 Ultra SSDs) with performance throttling turned off (which makes the CPU run hot - read loud) and the machine fully optimized; load up The Grandeur (streaming from a M.2 Ultra NVMe drive that sustains 3200MB/Sec) and step on the sustain pedal and gliss up/down the keyboard several times.  Now let off the pedal and immediately play a two hand chord.  You'll often hear a hiccup... though not every time.
That may or may not bother the end-user. 
It drives be crazy (I'm very biased when it comes to performance - for obvious reasons).
Even playing simpler parts (much less stress on the machine), there's often a little hiccup in the audio when playing this type of sample library at super small ASIO buffer sizes.
 
As much as it pains me to say this (I loath Apple and their ideology), the top-tier MacBook Pro can do this... at a 64-sample buffer size... with zero glitches.  Same basic specs on the hardware...
 
You can get/build a custom Clevo laptop that uses a desktop 8700k CPU.
It'll also play this type of sample-library (heavy loads) glitch-free at super small ASIO buffer sizes.
Of course, it's expensive, bulky, and has poor battery-life...
 
A well configured desktop PC with 8700k will breeze thru running The Grandeur at a 48-sample ASIO buffer size... but is more of a pain to cart to gigs.
 
It's just plain fun to play that type of piano library... with such immediate response.
 
 
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
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Hugh Mann
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/24 21:08:37 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby CakeAlexSHere 2018/01/26 02:58:11
.

 
 
 
 
 
post edited by Hugh Mann - 2018/01/29 06:30:21
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/25 18:18:30 (permalink)
Hugh Mann
 
I keep seeing you post this kind of advice.  I gotta say I don't fully agree with it.  Its misleading and some what self serving since you are, apparently, in the business of selling the type of high end machines you recommend.   Your statement:
 
>Off-the-shelf PC laptops are fine if you're working with ASIO buffer sizes of 256-samples or above<
 
This is simply not true.  Your statement is said as an absolute truth,  and it isn't.  I use a dell inspiron 7000 with a 7th gen i7.  I can get latency down to 48, if im just playing drums with it.  64 with drums and synths playing together. I play ezdrummer and bfd off of a roland v drum set and I get no hic ups or stutters.  I'm using a focusrite solo 2nd gen.  Prior to that I used a Toshiba laptop in the same way,  with no issues either. Got that one down to 64,  but its an older laptop.   I also use Kontakt and a variety of vst synths. I play in a band live and just bring the laptop and controller.  No issues.  I did configure a few things on the laptop,  but not much.  I set it to high performance,  put it in airplane mode,  disabled a few services, and I'm good to go. 

 
Believe whatever you want... but it is absolutely true. 
I've recently tested numerous off-the-shelf laptops (including the Dell XPS-15).
The MacBook Pro (which I don't sell BTW) is the only off-the-shelf laptop with a 7700HQ CPU that could play complex sample libraries (under heavy load) completely clean at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size.
NOTE:  I'm not talking "babying" the machine playing three note chords or a programmed drum part that's pulling 4 voices of polyphony.  I'm talking the ability to fully play whatever you want, with numerous simultaneous advanced libraries loaded/layered/split/etc... and being able to hit the sustain pedal and play heavy polyphony parts (with zero glitches).
Your Dell with a 7700HQ can not do what I'm talking about completely glitch-free.  
If you haven't disabled CPU throttling (SpeedStep, C-States, etc), your odds of glitches are even higher.
The reason why is DPC Latency... and has nothing to do with my opinion/bias/etc.
Even with everything possible disabled on your Dell, its DPC Latency is going to be 200-500uSec.
That is NOT low enough to play back heavy loads (completely glitch-free) at super small ASIO buffer sizes.
The smaller the ASIO buffer size, the more critical low/consistent DPC Latency becomes.
 
Load up Ableton Live with your audio interface set to a 48-sample ASIO buffer size.
Now bring up Live's audio preferences.  Go to the Audio stress-test section, bump the CPU load up to 80% and start the test-tone.  Your Dell won't sustain that test-tone indefinitely without glitching.
 
Open Ableton Live at a 48-sample ASIO buffer size, load up The Grandeur and run the type of stress-test I mentioned.  Step on the sustain pedal and gliss up/down a 61-key keyboard about 5-6 times.  Now let off the sustain pedal and immediately play a two-hand chord.  As I mentioned, it will glitch.  It may not happen every time... but you can absolutely get it to glitch.  It's easy to see/hear for yourself.
 
A well configured desktop machine can do both of the above tests... with absolutely zero glitches.
Why? 
Because there's a lot more control over components, controlling heat, the ability to disable any performance- throttling, and the ability to lock all CPU cores at the highest TurboBoost frequency.
 
The physics of small/tight enclosures necessitates performance-throttling.
This is why "mobile" CPUs exist.  Ever wonder why a NUC uses "mobile" CPU and laptop components?
Currently, Mac OSX deals with performance-throttling FAR better than Win10.
 
I'm not a fan of laptops... because they simply don't deliver the level of performance that I want/expect.
A laptop that runs a desktop CPU is the closest you'll come to the performance of a desktop machine.
They are expensive, bulky, and have short battery-life. 
 
BTW, Does your Focusrite actually go down to a 48-sample ASIO buffer size?  
Focusrite audio interfaces (compared to the likes of RME and MOTU) are known to use a larger hidden safety-buffer... which results in higher round-trip latency.
You might actually want to look in Ableton Live (at the audio output latency) and see if it matches the 2.65ms "Output Latency" to which I'm referring in the above examples.
 
As far as my post being self-serving, I've been a Cakewalk user and forum member since the CompuServe days.
I'm going to guess I've helped more folks over the past 20+ years than yourself.
Yes, I made clear that I'm biased... and it's well known what I do for a living.
There is nothing factually incorrect with anything that I've said.
If your intention is playing advanced sample-libraries under heavy load (at super small ASIO buffer sizes)... and you're set on using a laptop, you'll do better with a MacBook Pro than any off-the-shelf PC laptop.
And yes, a well configured desktop can breeze thru the above (because the level of control over components/configuration)... and do it at significantly lower CPU use than any PC laptop or Mac.
ie: The 8700k (desktop CPU) with all six cores locked at 4700MHz will smoke the 7700HQ (mobile CPU).
 
All this said, if you're happy with your Dell, fantastic.
But we're talking about two very different circumstances... and levels of expectation.

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#9
Hugh Mann
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/25 20:26:21 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby CakeAlexSHere 2018/01/26 02:58:41
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post edited by Hugh Mann - 2018/01/29 06:30:50
#10
pwalpwal
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/25 20:39:21 (permalink)


just a sec

#11
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/25 22:04:38 (permalink)
Funny comment about the avatar.
Most likely coming from someone bald with a beer-gut (not that there's anything wrong with that).
 
Wow!
Tell me again about disabling WiFi, Bluetooth, etc... and the importance of a quality audio interface.
What were those "audio guru" tweaks?  Did you get those off the Sweetwater site?
Man... I just had no idea about those things.  Thanks!
 
 
To the XPS-15's credit, it's one of the *few* off-the-shelf laptops that has BIOS parameters for disabling SpeedStep, C-states, etc.  Most don't even expose those parameters. 
Also to it's credit, it's a sleek looking machine.
On to the bad, it had a defective Bluetooth controller (to be fair, a rare issue)... and in no way could it playback The Grandeur completely glitch-free under the circumstances I've outlined.  Not even close...
 
Show a video of your Dell playing The Grandeur under the circumstances I've mentioned.
In fact, show a video of of that... and zoom-in on the RME control-panel... where it lists errors (dropped samples). 
Show the number of errors after running this test for an hour.
Never mind that.  Make it easier on yourself.
Do the same with the Ableton Live onboard stress-test.  You don't even have to be present while it's testing.
Let the sine wave run... with the RME set to a 48-sample ASIO buffer size... CPU load at 80%.
After an hour, zoom-in on the errors that have accumulated in the RME control panel.
 
Dropped samples may not matter to you.
They matter to me... and many of our clients.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#12
Hugh Mann
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/25 22:31:19 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby CakeAlexSHere 2018/01/26 03:00:16
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post edited by Hugh Mann - 2018/01/29 06:31:17
#13
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/25 22:46:43 (permalink)
Bunch of fluff...
Show the video like I outlined... and show the RME control panel errors.
Otherwise.... Pffft!
 
I could care less if you post a video playing three note chords and a little 4-voice drum pattern.
Show your Dell playing Rachmaninoff (or any busy piano part that's sustain pedal heavy) on a quality piano library at a 48-sample ASIO buffer size... and show us the zoom-in on the RME control panel errors.  
If you can't do that... then this conversation is done.

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#14
Hugh Mann
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/25 23:04:48 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby CakeAlexSHere 2018/01/26 03:00:44
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post edited by Hugh Mann - 2018/01/29 06:32:19
#15
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/25 23:06:33 (permalink)
And yes, my stress-test example is extreme... and intentionally so...
 
When you're out with your band playing Sweet Home Alabama...
Channeling your best Billy Powell...
Here comes the piano solo... and you decide to lay on the sustain pedal and really dig in.
That's when you don't want your piano library to glitch.
 
If your machine can playback the type of torture test I describe, you'll never give it a second thought.
Precisely because it can handle the absolute worst... with zero glitches.
That, Hugh... is the whole point. 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#16
Hugh Mann
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/25 23:22:18 (permalink)
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post edited by Hugh Mann - 2018/01/29 06:32:38
#17
bitflipper
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/25 23:26:20 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby abacab 2018/01/26 00:56:49
Technical debates are acceptable and encouraged. Personal insults are not. Please stay on topic and keep it civil.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#18
Hugh Mann
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/25 23:33:26 (permalink)
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post edited by Hugh Mann - 2018/01/29 06:32:57
#19
CakeAlexSHere
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/26 03:09:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Hugh Mann 2018/01/26 06:02:10
Lol I remember having the exact same debates a few years ago, fact is off shelf PC's are fine if specs are good enough and software/OS is correctly tuned. Overclocking should be left to gamers, it's an unnecessary obsession unless you perhaps need to run 100 synths over 600 tracks for no reason.

Back to my Dell XPS 8100 from 2010 which has worked great with a few upgrades over the years (SSD, 16GB, 1070 graphics card and power supply). When Intel fix that bug I'll be finally looking for an upgrade (next black Friday?).

Hugh Mann
but some of these claims are pretty exaggerated. And while it may not confuse those with experience and knowledge,  it could cause someone to needlessly over spend on a computer when they don't need to.  Its a bit of a public service.  :)


Absolutely right.
#20
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/26 03:38:36 (permalink)
I've stated where a typical off-the-shelf laptop's limitations show themselves.
That information is factual/true.  I've also explained the how and why.
Whether you care... and what you do or don't do with that information is strictly up to you.
 
Those who know me know I loath Apple.
A MacBook Pro can playback the stress-tests with zero glitches.
Dude (your word), we don't sell MacBook Pros.
You may not like it... but it is what it is...
The MacBook Pro is the only off-the-shelf laptop (7700HQ) that can perform to this level.
You never need worry about audio glitches at ASIO buffer size of 64-samples.
 
Want to compare the XPS-15 to the top-tier MacBook Pro?
The XPS-15 (fully optimized from BIOS thru OS and running a RME UFX) is a POS by comparison. 
A good looking POS I might add... with it's 4k multi-touch display.
Same CPU, same amount of RAM... and is nowhere near as as capable when working at a 48-sample buffer size.
In fact, if you can arrange it... I urge you to test the two side-by-side.
After testing, I actually bought the MacBook Pro... for those times I don't feel like taking out the Cube.
The Cube is running a 8700k with six cores locked at 4700MHz, 32GB RAM, and M.2 Ultra SSD for samples.
It's a no compromise machine that I built for myself.  The Cube is absolutely more cartage... but the capabilities are beyond any laptop... even those with Clevo shells running the 8700k.
 
Contrary to your belief, I'm not saying everybody needs to rush out and buy a new computer.
And... not everyone needs someone else to build their machine.
But if you're looking for one, you should know the breaking point going into the situation.
If that doesn't matter to you... at least you know what you're getting. 
 
On a side note, the new 8700k Coffee Lake CPU has really kicked open the doors to high-performance in a mid-tier CPU.  With six cores locked at 4700MHz, you've got the best of both worlds.
High clock-speed and more cores.  With robust cooling, it's also near dead silent.
To me, that's exciting and liberating.
 
Where I ended up in life is no accident.
After my wife, the two things I'm most passionate about are music and technology (as it relates to music).
Yes, I am jaded with high performance expectations.  How could I not be... doing this for well over 20 years?
No, not everyone needs that level of performance.
All I can tell you is... if you've experienced the level of performance I'm talking about, it's creative freedom.
It's a beautiful thing to be able to play your favorite advanced sample libraries with such immediate response.
When doing these tests, I rediscovered "The Grandeur".  I found myself getting lost just playing... because it sounded/responded/felt like playing a real piano.
 
Regarding playing out:
I will be playing tomorrow night (Friday).
I've played in Columbus, OH for many years.
I've been fortunate to play with many quality musicians/people.
I currently play with some of the finest (Rock) players in central OH... and am blessed to do so.
In fact, I met my wife singing.  She's on the morning show on QFM-96 (local classic-rock station).
Am I a rock-star?  No, but my day-job allows me to work with them.  I've met some folks who's talent I could only wish to have... and (ironically) they're some of the finest people I know.
For me, playing out is a way to stay-in-touch with the musical side... which is the fire that drives everything.
 
You can play a $300 Epiphone Les Paul... and if it makes you happy... that's truly great.
But it will never be the equivalent of a Custom Shop R9.
It will never have the attention to detail found in a Core series PRS.
Does that matter?  To some, no.  To others, yes.
The R9 is one of the finest guitars I've ever played.
The R9 has a little something extra that most guitars just don't...
Can you compromise for a local gig?  Sure, you don't need an R9 to play a club.
But it's a wonderful experience...
 
 
 
 
 
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#21
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/26 03:59:02 (permalink)
CakeAlexSHere
Lol I remember having the exact same debates a few years ago, fact is off shelf PC's are fine if specs are good enough and software/OS is correctly tuned. Overclocking should be left to gamers, it's an unnecessary obsession unless you perhaps need to run 100 synths over 600 tracks for no reason.

Back to my Dell XPS 8100 from 2010 which has worked great with a few upgrades over the years (SSD, 16GB, 1070 graphics card and power supply). When Intel fix that bug I'll be finally looking for an upgrade (next black Friday?).

Hugh Mann
but some of these claims are pretty exaggerated. And while it may not confuse those with experience and knowledge,  it could cause someone to needlessly over spend on a computer when they don't need to.  Its a bit of a public service.  :)


Absolutely right.



 
The problem with Off-The-Shelf is lack of control.
 
Noctua cooler?
CPU locked with all cores at full TurboBoost Speed?
Completely disable all thermal/performance throttling in the BIOS?
These are things you don't get "off-the-shelf".
 
Those details may not matter to you... but I guarantee they matter to other folks.
ie: The composer running large orchestral templates is an obvious example:
Let's say there's a dense project... that breaks down to bass and percussion during the mid section.
After this sparse part, the piece builds to a massive Outro.
Your motherboard and Win10 decide to throttle down the CPU to save power during the breakdown... and then WHAM!  the Outro section hits with massive stack of background vocals, strings, etc.
That's a glitch or (worst case) dropout...
With a proper motherboard, all that can be avoided.
 
 
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#22
CakeAlexSHere
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/26 04:13:59 (permalink)
There are no "problems" Jim.. People are happily running DAWs on off shelf PC's..

For instance my ancient XPS 8100 turns off turbo/hyperthreading just fine. I can turn off states etc in my BIOS. I can turn of speedstep as well but as you should know it's unnecessary if you tweak CPU values on Windows power management. Regardless it just works.

Your service I'm sure is perfectly fine but you don't need to invent or exaggerate unnecessary problems that don't actually exist to justify your service. We're recording music not playing Doom.

Like everything there are poor off shelf PC's and I'm also sure there are poor custom built PC's, and every year PC's get more powerful but the software specs aren't generally requiring bigger overheads.
#23
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/26 05:05:45 (permalink)
Not exaggerating anything...
The level of control you have with off-the-shelf motherboards is NOT what you have with a quality Asus/Gigabyte motherboard.  That's not my opinion... that's reality.  Has nothing to do with me.
Have you looked at the BIOS of a typical off-the-shelf laptop (which is where this started)?
Many offer almost *zero* control over all the above.
Again, that's not an exaggeration, that's the reality of the situation.
Even the nicer custom Clevo laptop shells (which are FAR and away better than Dell) offer nowhere near the tweaks of a quality Asus/Gigabyte motherboard.
To disable as much performance-throttling as possible, you have to resort to using ThrottleStop.  Even after this, performance (comparatively speaking) is poor.  Plus, your once quiet laptop is out the window.  Fan speeds increase dramatically.  The thermal conditions of laptops are real... and it has a major impact on performance.
 
Doesn't matter who builds it... as long as they know what they're doing:
If you're wanting the highest performance machine for a given task (whether it be a racing vehicle, computer, etc), you'll always achieve best performance with a custom solution.  The machine is exactly what's needed... nothing more and nothing less.  
 
BTW, How's that Noctua Cooler on your Dell... or that power-supply that operates in 0dB mode?  
What about running your 8700k with all six cores locked at 4700MHz?
How about doing that while keeping fan noise to an almost dead-silent level?
That CakeAlex, is the difference.  The devil is in the details.
 
 
 
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#24
Hugh Mann
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/26 05:47:16 (permalink)
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post edited by Hugh Mann - 2018/01/29 06:33:25
#25
Hugh Mann
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/26 05:53:18 (permalink)
Sorry OP for continuing in the derailing of this thread ( I didn't start the derailing).  Your idea is a good one and it will work.  I have tried it myself with my toshiba laptop.  However,  with a big enough SSD,  I don't find I need more than one HD.  Definitely go for a ssd hd.  Totally worth it and cheap enough.  
#26
Hugh Mann
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/26 06:03:44 (permalink)
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post edited by Hugh Mann - 2018/01/29 06:33:52
#27
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/26 14:35:58 (permalink)
It's not about playing Dream Theater or Yes.
It's not about "playing" the stress-tests I mentioned.
It's about knowing the machine will *never* glitch while playing at the smallest buffer size.
No dropped samples... ever
 
We've been talking about playing a single nice piano library.
In my particular case, I'm using Live to have several instances of Kontakt, Omnisphere, etc all loaded and ready to play.  If you're not familiar with what some folks are doing with Live (on stage), I'd recommend checking out a few YouTube videos.  Some are using this configuration for Sunday P&W... others for concert stages.
Very complex sounds/setups, automation, routing, etc... all quickly/seamlessly switched (no glitches when switching between complex sounds).  Aside from the numerous virtual-instruments, there's also DSP processing for EFX.
That's the way I'm making use of Ableton Live.
Yes, I want to do that (with zero glitches) at a 48-sample ASIO buffer size.
That's not happening with an inexpensive PC laptop.  I've tried it.  Not even close to working glitch-free
The MacBook Pro (which we do not sell) is fully capable of this... but it is expensive.
I built a Cube with multi-touch monitor as a no compromise solution for said purpose.
Is this an extreme example compared to playing a SampleTank piano?  Yes... but it's where things are moving... and the potential is amazing.
 
My career has always been about pushing limits.
Folks don't call looking to make major compromises in performance.
ie: Composer Evan Jolly (Hacksaw Ridge) didn't have me send a DAW to the UK with marginal expectations.
Could I use simple ST2 (apologies to IK) sounds on stage?  Yes.
With the possibilities available today, I don't want/need to make those compromises.
 
If you want to know the truth about your machine's abilities, run DAW Bench and compare performance to other machines.  It's quick/easy to do... and isn't influenced by anyone's bias.
 
You think I'm disingenuous because I want to sell someone a computer.
I think you're disingenuous trying to say a $700 laptop makes a great workstation. 
We will not agree on either point.
 
Side Note:
In all seriousness, I encourage you to run some audio stress-tests with a XPS-15 and top-tier MBP side-by-side.
The MBP is expensive... but it's a great low-latency performer.
 
As to the comments on looks... uh... you brought that into the conversation...
I've no further comment.
 
 
 
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#28
mettelus
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/26 15:13:52 (permalink)
Well dang, good morning everyone!
 
Poor OP... having just bought my first laptop in 12 years (I detest them), I went with a computer without a drive bay for the same reason (real-estate in a laptop is premium turf, and most new ones don't have a internal DVD anyway). I bought an external DVD player, connected it to the machine twice, and put it back into its box. Probably never use it again, since newer software can be downloaded or transferred off a thumb drive these days. +1 on the knowing the system limitations first, since you would have a better feed for them, but that real-estate could be definitely be used better.
 
[WARNING ---- perpetuating the derailment below!]
As for the derailment, it is entertaining, but there are valid points on both sides. Reality is that "cutting edge" is not required, or there would not be a software market at all. Flip-side is that "adequate" does not denote "sub-standard." I have clung to the 2600K for a long time, and am just recently researching the 8700K (oddly enough, one review said folks still on the 2600K will finally see upgrade incentive in the 8700K). From a "new build" perspective, it is more seeking longevity and up-gradability than "cutting edge," although the 8700K single core benches at the top of the heap atm. All of the "chop and swap" components can be replaced fairly simply, but the CPU/MB is sorta "set." Stepping back to limitation of the socket only having 16 PCIe lanes, it made me realize 1) that is what I have now, and 2) would I ever saturate them anyway? It is interesting research at least.
 
Since I tend to use car analogies to detract from the topic at hand... a car that top ends way outside the boundaries of "normal operation" is not going to be quite as impressive as the ones that perform best in the "normal operation" region. Almost everyone enters these arguments with a single (cherry-picked) data point off an entire curve.

ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
#29
Hugh Mann
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Re: Laptop UPGRADE worth considering? New SSD main drive + DVD Harddrive Caddy for old SAT 2018/01/26 15:36:08 (permalink)
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post edited by Hugh Mann - 2018/01/29 06:34:12
#30
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