Latency of Cakewalk Plugs

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ampfixer
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2015/06/19 14:19:57 (permalink)

Latency of Cakewalk Plugs

When I buy plugs for use with Sonar I try and find out what the latency will be. I have no idea what kind of latency Sonar's plugs have and I'm wondering if anyone else knows. I love the way Waves posts those specs, so maybe this will be a feature request.
 
Do Pro Channel modules have zero latency?

Regards, John 
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    scook
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    Re: Latency of Cakewalk Plugs 2015/06/19 14:34:39 (permalink)
    I do not recall ever seeing a comprehensive list of Cakewalk plug-ins with this type of detail. Waves may post the information to assist when PDC must be calculated by hand.
     
    WRT the ProChannel, the Concrete Limiter carries a notation about latency near the bottom of the "Using the Limiter" help page:

    Note: ProChannel Concrete Limiter should not be used on a track while recording, as it has a look-ahead of 1.5 milliseconds and will result in a slight delay while recording.

    I believe it is the only module I have with such a notice.
    post edited by scook - 2015/06/19 14:40:52
    #2
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Latency of Cakewalk Plugs 2015/06/19 16:00:08 (permalink)
    There are occasional posts about Cakewalk-included plugins and which ones add enough latency to be unable to be effectively used during tracking, but I have never seen a complete list in any of those.
     
    I guess I would look at descriptions of each suspect plugin in the Sonar documentation, and  then I also have a general sense that plugins that are in the Convoluted Reverb category likely add too much latency for use in tracking, just by the nature of what they do in their processing for the effect.
     
    Many 3rd-party plugins post latency values on their websites, and that really helps.  I am shortly going to embark on several large-scale projects, and one of my by-products from that will be that I will start and retain a Word document that lists each of my plugins by category, vendor, name, description, and notes, with some sort of marking/note to indicate which ones are not to be used during tracking.  If and when I get enough of that finished, I will likely publish it here in the forums, for others to copy/paste into their own lists.
     
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    #3
    stxx
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    Re: Latency of Cakewalk Plugs 2015/06/19 17:27:41 (permalink)
    Record with FX off to be safe and also avoid potential timeouts and / or crashes.    When I do overdubs, I create various mix or stem tracks in advance with FX and mute all the other tracks.   That way I can enjoy mixed base (not bass) tracks for overdubbing but keep the FX off and live track playback to a minimum.    

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    bitflipper
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    Re: Latency of Cakewalk Plugs 2015/06/19 18:17:09 (permalink)
    In your quest for identifying latencies, be aware that many plugins have variable latency, a category that includes those most notorious for long latencies. Remember that what causes latency in a plugin is buffering. If a plugin offers a buffer size option then there is no single number that represents that plugin's latency. If an equalizer offers a choice between minimum phase and linear phase operation, then it, too, has no single latency number. Plugins with multiple modules (e.g. Ozone) will have variable latency depending on which modules are enabled. 
     
    Latencies can be measured, IIRC, by Christian Budde's VST Analyzer. If you're not familiar with that tool, google it - it's a free download. Unfortunately, VST Analyzer could not load 64-bit plugins last time I checked. However, if you have the 32-bit version of a plugin available, even if it's not registered in SONAR, you can test that instead and whatever latency you measure for it will be the same as for the 64-bit version.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    gswitz
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    Re: Latency of Cakewalk Plugs 2015/06/19 18:20:55 (permalink)
    Don't forget about plugins with 'look ahead'.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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    ampfixer
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    Re: Latency of Cakewalk Plugs 2015/06/19 19:14:30 (permalink)
    I was aware that all plugs have some sort of overhead. What fascinates me is that Waves lists the latency by platform and recording frequency plus some plugs have less latency when recording at 96k than 44k or 48k. That's got me wondering if ALL plugs have less latency at 96k. So far it's not consistent.
     
    I'm shopping for a Quad Curve replacement and want something very similar. THe Waves H-EQ is very similar to the Quad Curve but has some latency at 48K recording. I only use multi-band plugs and limiters for mixing. Same for reverb.

    Regards, John 
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    charlyg
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    Re: Latency of Cakewalk Plugs 2015/06/19 19:27:59 (permalink)
    stxx
    Record with FX off to be safe and also avoid potential timeouts and / or crashes.    When I do overdubs, I create various mix or stem tracks in advance with FX and mute all the other tracks.   That way I can enjoy mixed base (not bass) tracks for overdubbing but keep the FX off and live track playback to a minimum.    




    But my singer/guitar player needs to hear his "tone" when recording...

     
     
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    williamcopper
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    Re: Latency of Cakewalk Plugs 2015/06/19 19:49:33 (permalink)
    Right ... it's also sometimes a factor in making a mix, without the FX, whatever it is, the sound isn't right, and it is extremely difficult to imagine a future improvement while working without it. 
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    ampfixer
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    Re: Latency of Cakewalk Plugs 2015/06/19 21:41:00 (permalink)
    Hey William, to deal with that issue I just bought a new interface that has onboard DSP that matched bundled plug ins. No latency at all while recording and I have a selection of reverbs, a comp and EQ to use. The reverb is one of my favourites and I find singers really like to have a bit when tracking.

    Regards, John 
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    charlyg
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    Re: Latency of Cakewalk Plugs 2015/06/19 21:47:29 (permalink)
    I have more than a few songs done on a multi and then imported into Sonar. I have one of those songs re-recorded from scratch in Sonar. I can't do much with his imported stuff, it's already got the effects. At least in Sonar, it goes in dry and I can tune sims all day long til I find THE one! And Nectar works best on a dry vocal so far as well. I am glad the little 2i2 has no latency issues at all. He can hear what he needs to, and I get a nice dry signal to work with!

     
     
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    Anderton
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    Re: Latency of Cakewalk Plugs 2015/06/20 00:04:36 (permalink)
    williamcopper
    Right ... it's also sometimes a factor in making a mix, without the FX, whatever it is, the sound isn't right, and it is extremely difficult to imagine a future improvement while working without it. 



    Use freeze, or premix the track and archive the original.

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    slartabartfast
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    Re: Latency of Cakewalk Plugs 2015/06/20 02:30:32 (permalink)
    ampfixer
    I was aware that all plugs have some sort of overhead. What fascinates me is that Waves lists the latency by platform and recording frequency plus some plugs have less latency when recording at 96k than 44k or 48k. That's got me wondering if ALL plugs have less latency at 96k. So far it's not consistent.
     



    Computers do not think of buffers as time/delay/latency they think of buffers as a number of bytes of data that is stored prior to being processed. If a buffer is a certain size (bytes) then whenever you fill it with more data delivered at a higher number of bytes/second it will fill in a shorter time. The  effect of this is that if a plugin has a fixed size buffer and you use a higher sample rate the delay caused by that buffer in msec will be shorter. A given buffer will fill at 44.1K in about twice (96/44.1=2.17687) the time it will fill at 96K, introducing a latency of about half as long (time) at 96K as at 44.1K. Some programs may be designed so that they have buffers that vary in size depending on the demand, and there are other factors aside from buffer size that introduce delays, so observing such a simple relationship for all plugins is not likely.
    post edited by slartabartfast - 2015/06/20 02:40:59
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    ampfixer
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    Re: Latency of Cakewalk Plugs 2015/06/20 16:25:04 (permalink)
    Thanks man, that was a great explanation and tracks 100% with my observations.

    Regards, John 
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    SilkTone
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    Re: Latency of Cakewalk Plugs 2015/06/21 01:00:58 (permalink)
    ampfixer
    I was aware that all plugs have some sort of overhead.

     
    However keep in mind that "overhead" is not the same as latency. It is perfectly possible for a plugin to use a lot of CPU but have zero latency. Or to use almost no CPU but add a lot of latency.

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