Latency problems, can't trace the cause

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Ken77
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2014/02/02 17:58:44 (permalink)

Latency problems, can't trace the cause

Hello everyone, this is my first time posting: I have been having a lot of problems with latency, to the point that I rarely can record or even play back for that matter. I bought a new Casio PX850 Digital Piano with 256 voices of polyphony.  I cannot record with it, and believe that latency is causing this keyboard to play poorly.  As a standalone playing through its own speakers, it's fine. When played through a DAW,  the action changes drastically and the sound is too soft to record.
 
Sonar X3 is my main DAW and is the one that cracks and pops the most. I also have tried Cubase 5, the Cubase 7 trial, and Abelton Live 9 among others.  Same issues, all of them. I've spent weeks trying to solve this problem and have used LatencyMon that someone mentioned on another thread, it gave me suggestions on the possible causes. Seems like I fix one issue and another immediately comes up.
 
Here's what I'm working with:
 
Operating System/Specs:
  • Win 7 64 bit Ultimate
  • ASIO4all driver
  • Intel i7 3930 K processor 3.2 GHz  
  • MOBO: ASUS P9X79 PRO LGA 2011 Intel X79 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel
  • 5-Seagate Barracuda HDD SATA 6 Gb/s NCQ 64MB Cache 7200 RPM; 3.5- 11TB total.
  • Nexus Power Supply RX8500 850 watts
  • Noctua NHU9B Se2 dual heatsink
  • 32 Gb of Ram Corsair Vengeance (4x8GB) DDR3 1600 MHz  (CMZ32GX3M4X1600C10) 
  • Graphics card: ASUS 210 Silent (EN210 SILENT/DI/1GD3/V2 (LP) 
 
Over the past weeks I've made multiple tweaks including: 
  • Disabled USB Power Management
  • Enabled Write Cache and Advanced Performance for hard drives
  • Changed Processor Scheduling
  • Adjusted Power Options
  • Disabled Sound Exclusive Mode
  • Checked for IRQ conflicts 
  • Disabled Visual effects
  • Disabled anti-virus 
  • Disabled some Windows servicesAnti Virus scan
  • Updated Bios, chipset and all drivers.
  • Disabled c3, c6, etc.
  • EIST disabled. 
 
This weekend I did this:
  • Reformatted the drive and started over with Windows 8.1 – I only installed the bare minimum applications for testing purposes. 
  • Installed all the latest drivers for all my hardware and updated Widows 8.1.
  • Reformatted again and installed Windows 7 Ultimate with only the driver for the LAN so I could access the Internet; latency problems continue but for different reasons than the Windows 8.1 setup. 
 
Still popping and the piano plays like there's a noticeable delay from the time I hit a key until the sound actually comes out the speakers. Sometimes it works for 10 minutes then everything goes downhill. Thanks in advance for any tips.  
post edited by Ken77 - 2014/02/03 08:23:48
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    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Latency problems, can't trace the cause 2014/02/02 18:20:46 (permalink)
    OK - go into Sonar Edit>Preferences>Driver Settings and post back with your reported latency values.
     
    Input Latency
    Output Latency
    Total Roundtrip Latency
     
    I will save my ASIO4ALL speech for after we see where your above values are currently being reported at.
     
    Bob Bone
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #2
    dwardzala
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    Re: Latency problems, can't trace the cause 2014/02/02 19:52:36 (permalink)
    What is your sound card/audio interface?

    Dave
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    #3
    Ken77
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    Re: Latency problems, can't trace the cause 2014/02/03 08:49:25 (permalink)
    OK, here are the latency values:
     
    Input: 9.8ms
    Output: 9.8ms
    Total Roundtrip: 19.6
     
    I'm using Realtek Hi Definition Audio and Nvidia High Definition Audio. (Nvidia is disabled.) I don't have a physical sound card/audio interface. Somebody told me that wasn't needed as I'm playing softsynths. Sounds like some of you might be about to disagree with this; if that's the core of the problem here, which audio interface would you recommend?
     
    By the way I edited the original post, the lists had somehow become paragraphs.
    #4
    lawp
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    Re: Latency problems, can't trace the cause 2014/02/03 10:33:27 (permalink)
    Try not playing through the daw and just record the "stand alone" audio?

    sstteerreeoo ffllllaanngge
    #5
    bitflipper
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    Re: Latency problems, can't trace the cause 2014/02/03 12:04:09 (permalink)
    I bought a new Casio PX850 Digital Piano with 256 voices of polyphony.

    Somebody told me that wasn't needed as I'm playing softsynths.

    These two statements are contradictory. Are you using the Casio as a MIDI controller only, or are you using it as an audio source? IOW, are recording a hardware synth or soft synths? They're two different sets of potential problems and two different sets of solutions.
     
    If you're recording the Casio's audio, that's easily do-able with your RealTek interface. 
     
     


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    #6
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Latency problems, can't trace the cause 2014/02/03 13:33:52 (permalink)
    Ken77
    OK, here are the latency values: Input: 9.8msOutput: 9.8msTotal Roundtrip: 19.6 I'm using Realtek Hi Definition Audio and Nvidia High Definition Audio. (Nvidia is disabled.) I don't have a physical sound card/audio interface. Somebody told me that wasn't needed as I'm playing softsynths. Sounds like some of you might be about to disagree with this; if that's the core of the problem here, which audio interface would you recommend? By the way I edited the original post, the lists had somehow become paragraphs.

    Thanks for posting the values.  19 ms latency will give you a noticeable lag, if you can adjust the ASIO4ALL settings to use a buffer size of around 128, or otherwise end up with a Total Roundtrip Latency value of around 10 ms, that would be a good goal.
     
    ASIO4ALL works for some folks, and causes issues for others.  It is really not going to cut it for the long haul with getting the most out of Sonar, and I recommend you give thought to picking up a dedicated audio interface.
     
    A good basic audio interface will run from around $150 usd on up, depending on features and quality.  Folks here can add their recommendations for which ones to look at.
     
    There may yet be some adjustments that can at least for the time being reduce your latency issues.
     
    I recommend settings starting at:
     
    Audio device (or ASIO4ALL): Sample Rate 44.1 k or 48 k, ASIO Buffer Size = 128
     
    Sonar: Driver Mode = ASIO, Sample Rate 44.1 k or 48 k, Record Bit-Depth = 24 Bits
     
    See if you can get the above settings in play on your system, and give it a shot and post back with the results.  Again, try to end up with the Total Roundtrip Latency at or just below 10 milliseconds.
     
    Bob Bone
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #7
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Latency problems, can't trace the cause 2014/02/03 13:37:10 (permalink)
    ASIO4ALL will use a tremendous amount of CPU to do analog/digital conversion, which will easily then cause dropouts, crackles, and lag.  
     
    A dedicated audio interface will use its on-board circuitry to take that analog/digital 'work' away from the CPU, so that your CPU can do other things.  That will reduce the impact to your system, and you will have far less latency and sound quality issues with a real audio interface.
     
    Bob Bone
     
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #8
    Ken77
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    Re: Latency problems, can't trace the cause 2014/02/03 23:20:58 (permalink)
    Thanks, all, for your input.
     
    The Casio is intended to be a MIDI controller only, for recording purposes. For purposes of troubleshooting, assume it's being used as a MIDI controller and soft synths only such as Kontakt 5, Ivory pianos, etc. 
     
    I recommend settings starting at:
     Audio device (or ASIO4ALL): Sample Rate 44.1 k or 48 k, ASIO Buffer Size = 128
     Sonar: Driver Mode = ASIO, Sample Rate 44.1 k or 48 k, Record Bit-Depth = 24 Bits

     
    With those settings, the roundtrip latency is 13.8, and I just can't get enough volume to record. I have to disable the touch response on the piano completely, which makes it play terribly. It's got very nice weighted action and that's one of the reasons I bought it. Disabling that is a dealbreaker for me. 
     
    With buffer size 64, roundtrip latency is 10.9ms and it's much easier to play. I don't have to pound to get volume. It doesn't feel normal yet but it's better than at 128. No popping or clicking but it's still just sluggish. LatencyMon is also griping that NVidia kernel mode driver's highest execution in ms is 27.13, so something is really wrong here. 
     
    Worth noting that LatencyMon gives me bad reports even when I have no other applications running besides LatencyMon itself. I assume there is more that needs attention. 
     
    I appreciate the explanation of audio interfaces and will be looking into a purchase. Obviously anything that gets the load off the CPU is a good thing!
    #9
    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re: Latency problems, can't trace the cause 2014/02/04 04:13:12 (permalink)
    Ken77
    Thanks, all, for your input. The Casio is intended to be a MIDI controller only, for recording purposes. For purposes of troubleshooting, assume it's being used as a MIDI controller and soft synths only such as Kontakt 5,
    Ivory pianos, etc.  
    I recommend settings starting at:
    Audio device (or ASIO4ALL): Sample Rate 44.1 k or 48 k, ASIO Buffer Size = 128
    Sonar: Driver Mode = ASIO, Sample Rate 44.1 k or 48 k, Record Bit-Depth = 24 Bits
     
     
    With those settings, the roundtrip latency is 13.8, and I just can't get enough volume to record. I have to disable the touch response on the piano completely, which makes it play terribly. It's got very nice weighted action and that's one of the reasons I bought it. Disabling that is a dealbreaker for me.  With buffer size 64, roundtrip latency is 10.9ms and it's much easier to play. I don't have to pound to get volume.


    I've never heard that buffer size, bit depth and sample rate could affect the volume in a disturbing degree??!!

    SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre  -  Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc.
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    #10
    bitflipper
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    Re: Latency problems, can't trace the cause 2014/02/04 11:47:46 (permalink)
    Instead of disabling velocity on the piano, check the user manual and see if there's a way to scale it. Pianos by nature need the full velocity range, but most sampled instruments don't, so excessive velocity range is often a nuisance. If the Casio doesn't offer velocity scaling, most Kontakt instruments do, so you can always adjust the velocity range after the fact.
     
    Getting adequate volume from Kontakt is sometimes a problem if the instrument's CC7 range is too low by default. You can edit the Kontakt instrument to raise it - go into the instrument options and there are selections for the CC7 range. I often have to bring it up to 0db or even higher to get suitable volume while recording.
     
    19ms of latency will make playing soft synths in real time awkward, especially instruments with fast attacks. You'll need to get down to half that or even less if you want to use, say, a marimba or other percussive sound. Reducing latency is largely a matter of decreasing your sound card's buffer size, but can also be accomplished with higher sample rates. Just going from 44.1KHz to 48KHz (which is the native rate for the RealTek) will knock a couple milliseconds off. 
     
    The way I deal with soft synth latency is to monitor the hardware synthesizer while recording MIDI and then re-routing the finished MIDI track to a soft synth. Because you're  using a piano rather than a general-purpose rompler, this will probably only work for percussive-type sounds. If, for example, you want a harpsichord, play it as a piano part while monitoring the Casio directly and recording the performance as MIDI. Then find a harpsichord instrument and route the MIDI track to it.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

    My Stuff
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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Latency problems, can't trace the cause 2014/02/04 12:00:13 (permalink)
    There's no way around it, the heart of using a DAW is the audio interface. $300 software won't run on a $10 sound chip.  It's a huge waste of time talking or even thinking about any other approach to recording audio or MIDI.
    You need GOOD ASIO or WDM drivers. Not a band-aid like asio4all. 
    These day's the Scarlett 2i2 ($150) is very popular. I bought the 6i6 ($240) because I needed the extra connectivity. If your Casio uses USB you will not need the MIDI ports as an example. I need them to drive old outboard gear. 
     

    Johnny V  
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    #12
    markyzno
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    Re: Latency problems, can't trace the cause 2014/02/04 15:20:32 (permalink)
    I bet my bumcakes its ASIO4ALL.

    Sonar Platinum 64 bit > Pro tools 10.3.2 >Intel i7 3770K > 16Gb Ram > Gigabyte Z77-D3H Motherboard> NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB > ATi RADEON HD5700 > 240GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD> Win 10 home 64 bit> Delta 1010 > MOTU Audio Express > MA-15D's > NI Ultimate 9 > NI Kontrol S61 1.1 > NI MAschine Studio 2.3 / KORG MS-20 Mini - Arturia MicroBrute > KORG SQ1 - KORG Kaoss Pad KP3 > iPad and IO Dock 2 running various bits > Bunch of guitars >

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    #13
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Latency problems, can't trace the cause 2014/02/04 16:35:21 (permalink)
    Oh, so you want to bet - I'll see your bumcakes and raise you one international incident.
     
    (please interpret the above as meaning I concur that ASIO4ALL may well be the culprit).
     
    Bob Bone
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #14
    Cactus Music
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    Re: Latency problems, can't trace the cause 2014/02/04 16:48:27 (permalink)
    ASIO4all is known as a last resort fix.Say your trapped on a desert island without your audio interface but you have a laptop and internet. 

    Johnny V  
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     http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
     
     
    #15
    Splat
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    Re: Latency problems, can't trace the cause 2014/02/04 20:40:20 (permalink)
    Cactus Music
    ASIO4all is known as a last resort fix.Say your trapped on a desert island without your audio interface but you have a laptop and internet. 



    And you don't have any suicide pills.

    Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed.
    @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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    Ken77
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    Re: Latency problems, can't trace the cause 2014/02/06 09:18:38 (permalink)
    Thanks you for the suggestions on the audio interfaces. I'll check them out and buy one in the near future.   
     
    Bitflipper, I'll have a few questions on what you said, but would like to play with some settings first and post back. I tried adjusting volume in Kontakt already and didn't see any change at all, but I'll keep playing around with it.
     
    #17
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