baberufus
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Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
I am currently struggling with the idea of having multiple layered tracks (specifically, guitar tracks) to add texture to a mix. It's awesome fun creatively to come up with different parts like that; however, when it's time for mixdown, a big pile of mud ensues…lol! Hard to get a wide, open stereo field with a clean sound. Online experts here and there say use less tracks for a cleaner, more open sound. That makes sense, of course, but then every issue of Sound on Sound articles show DAW screen shots of pro mixes of various hit records, and there is an absolute MINIMUM of 350 tracks in the project…lol...usually including 20 or 25 guitar tracks (if it's a "sparse" mix). And then of course the engineer being interviewed says, "I like simplicity!" Oh really? lol! But then again, the mixes always sound top notch, of course…clean as a whistle! Not surprising, of course, they're pros…but why isn't this advice of using fewer tracks ever adopted in the real world (pro world, anyway)? Why is it just the opposite (HUNDREDS of tracks)?
post edited by baberufus - 2016/09/19 17:04:37
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kevinwal
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/19 16:46:44
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Ha, I know what you mean! One thing that helps me is to ease up quite a lot on distortion for guitars. It's amazing how dirty relatively clean guitars can sound. Also, consider using fx buses rather than slapping reverbs and delays on individual tracks, and note that a little goes a really long way. After that, eq'ing each track so that it has it's own space in the frequency spectrum will do wonders for clarity and separation. Good luck and I'm really looking forward to hearing other's input on this thread.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/19 16:58:20
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You'll find in most mixes that in your "20 or 25 guitar tracks" that they don't all play at the same time. It's common to bring in or out different tracks for a whole variety of reasons. I have a few projects with that many guitar tracks in them yet I'd be surprised if there more than 6 playing at any time throughout the length of the song.
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baberufus
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/19 17:02:12
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Thanks, Kevin! Yes, I did find out that guitar distortion is a bear in mixes. I thought it was the level of the guitar signal causing the mix to distort, but it was the dang guitar's inherent distortion itself that was causing it. I also have tried sculpting EQ's as well. Maybe that has helped somewhat from what I've tried so far, but that is a skill that I will have to master gradually over time through trial and error, I'm sure. I didn't know that using buses helped things sound cleaner. I figured that as long as my computer wasn't sweating its processors it's OK to load up the FX bins on individual tracks. How does using buses affect the sound…just wondering…thanks for your input!
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baberufus
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/19 17:03:29
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Thanks, Jonesey, that is an aspect I did not think of…I'll keep that in mind!
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kevinwal
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/19 17:15:08
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baberufus Thanks, Kevin! Yes, I did find out that guitar distortion is a bear in mixes. I thought it was the level of the guitar signal causing the mix to distort, but it was the dang guitar's inherent distortion itself that was causing it. I also have tried sculpting EQ's as well. Maybe that has helped somewhat from what I've tried so far, but that is a skill that I will have to master gradually over time through trial and error, I'm sure. I didn't know that using buses helped things sound cleaner. I figured that as long as my computer wasn't sweating its processors it's OK to load up the FX bins on individual tracks. How does using buses affect the sound…just wondering…thanks for your input!
One caveat, I'm no sound engineer, I just read and heed from those who are. Anyway, generally speaking it's really hard to keep multiple reverb and delay units from creating a huge hash of different wave forms interacting with each other (cancelling each other out or reinforcing one another) in a way that's pleasing to the ear when they all eventually get mixed together. So I use a single reverb bus and a single delay bus. Each of those busses has the effect on it only, with any wet/dry control set to completely wet, no dry signal at all. Then I use sends from the tracks I want those effect on. I can control the amount of fx for each instrument with the send gain control on the instrument track, and I can also control how much overall reverb or delay is getting mixed in with the fx bus fader. This also has the effect of making those instruments and vocal parts sound like they were recorded in the same room at the same time. I find that I really like the Rematrix Solo reverb on the prochannel strip as a bus reverb. Naturally you will find it useful to ignore this guideline when you wanting an effect to be a major part of an instrument's sound, like reverb in a surf tune, for example, or for Pink Floyd-like delays on guitar solos, but by and large, single fx busses is a pretty decent rule of thumb for most mixes.
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Jesse Screed
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/19 17:16:40
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kevinwal consider using fx buses rather than slapping reverbs and delays on individual tracks, and note that a little goes a really long way. After that, eq'ing each track so that it has it's own space in the frequency spectrum will do wonders for clarity and separation.
I have to agree with kevinwal on the first point, but I would also include compressors, tape sims, and any other effect, period. I would also add to try and get each guitar track to have it's own distinct sound before you even record it. The less you need to fiddle with something once it is committed to disk, the less "noise" you will inherently introduce later. With that said, some people do like "mud," so the bottom line is, if it sounds good to you, go for it. Jesse Q. Screed
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Zargg
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/19 17:20:52
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Hi. I rarely have more than 4 guitars playing at the same time in my songs. (Solos, if any comes on top of this..) I might have lots of tracks / takes, but find more guitars often to "cloud" the sound. That might have more to do with me, than the number of guitars  But as mentioned earlier, mixing in some clean guitars can help (them cut through the mix, in my opinion). All the best.
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baberufus
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/19 17:37:29
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Thanks all...points taken!
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Anderton
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/19 17:52:44
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You can get good music in a variety of ways. Beethoven needed a symphony orchestra to get his point across, Bob Dylan needed an acoustic guitar. I subscribe to "the fewer tracks you have, the more important each one becomes." But, there are times in big projects when multiple tracks are really serving as only one track. For example, I use an amp sim...one track. Someone recording an amp might have two mics on the amp, a DI input, and a couple room mics, so that's five tracks as opposed to my one track right there. All the lead vocals might be kept "just in case," whereas I typically have a track for voice, and a couple for harmonies. If I don't like something, I punch over it rather than do another track. I'll have a stereo track for drums, whereas the "pro" production might have multiple mics on the drums, maybe a contact mic or two, room mics, etc. In SONAR, think how many tracks you'll have if you enable all the outputs in AD2 and also have Kontakt I'm not saying that my approach is right or wrong, it's how I like to work and it gives the sound I want. Over time, I've been recording with fewer tracks and cutting parts out. I just did a song with a guitar part and two keyboards. For most of the song, I realized I needed only the keyboards. I'm also dropping out bass selectively more and more, because of the drama it adds when it returns. I've been influenced a lot by the DJ approach to music.
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Larry Jones
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/19 18:13:21
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I like your style on this, Craig, but I think it must come from you being an old school guy who used to use tape machines. I mean this in the nicest way. I started out on 4-track, and there were guys around in those days telling me something like "You oughta try to make a record on a mono machine," as if I were cheating by using so many tracks. I was up to 24 tracks when I switched over to digital recording and virtually unlimited space, but I still find myself being frugal with tracks. It just feels like good technique. I mean, if you have to hear something played 20 different ways, maybe you should wait until you know what you want before you start recording. One area where I don't scrimp and really appreciate the breathing room is vocals. I keep all the lead vox takes and never clean up after comping -- because you just never know. And I often create BG Vox tracks by stacking one singer as many times as needed to get the sound. But I play live with a 4-piece band and I don't see why you'd ever need 6 guitars (speaking of rock'n'roll, of course; I don't write symphonies).
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Anderton
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/19 18:24:22
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Larry Jones I like your style on this, Craig, but I think it must come from you being an old school guy who used to use tape machines. Believe me, I was more than happy to get out of "8-track jail"! I've done projects with lots of tracks, and projects with very few tracks...but these days, one of the main reasons for not using lots of tracks is that I want music that can be reproduced live. The discipline of singing a vocal and having it be "the vocal" reminds me that live, I get only one chance to do a part I try to make working in the studio as close as possible to a live performance experience, which also helps explain the limited number of tracks. Maybe if like you I was playing with a 4-piece band, my "live" thing would be covered, and I'd use the studio more to stretch out.
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baberufus
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/19 18:53:20
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Thanks, Craig, and by the way, you're the perfect guy to ask about a problem I had with amp sims on buses a while back (one of the reasons I gave up using buses so much). If I had three guitar tracks panned differently, say one left, one right, and one center and wanted to use the same amp sim sound, I would set up a bus track to which to feed all 3 guitar tracks. But no matter what I tried (making sure stereo interleave was activated, etc.) I couldn't for the life of me avoid all 3 guitars going dead center out of that bus. As soon as I gave up and put instances of the same amp sim on all 3 tracks' FX bins, everything was fine, of course. Have you heard of this issue, and whether or not it still happens? I would LOVE to be able to send all 3 tracks to one amp sim bus, obviously, especially since now I'm learning that multiple instances of the amp sim will add to aurally cluttering up the mix.
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Anderton
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/19 20:30:31
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I think sending three tracks to the same amp sim is not a good idea if you're using a sound that adds distortion. The intermodulation issues will be dreadful. I take an opposite approach - split one guitar into different bands, and each goes to its own amp sim. I wrote about this in one of the eZines where I talked about multiband processing track templates. As to your original question, make sure the amp itself is set up for stereo. A lot of amp sims default to mono in/stereo out.
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baberufus
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/19 20:52:03
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Good to know...Thanks, Craig!
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Larry Jones
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/19 21:03:04
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baberufus: I didn't mean to hijack your thread. To your question, I'd say it's possible to get a clean, open sound while using 350 tracks. As others have pointed out, it's not likely that all of those tracks would be playing at the same time, plus you could EQ and pan them out of each others' way. But it's easier to get the open sound you're looking for by using fewer tracks, fewer instruments, and an arrangement that focuses the listener on what's important in the mix and leaves silence here and there as part of the performance. This, of course, is hard to do, but it's been done, and you can do it, too.
post edited by Larry Jones - 2016/09/19 21:55:35
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baberufus
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/19 23:04:03
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Haha no problem Larry...thank you too for your input!
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AT
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/20 00:59:45
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I try to keep it simple, for one. And try, as much as possible, to capture the sound as I want it (note: I don't play guitar so it is all about engineering, not playing).
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Boydie
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/20 03:06:44
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☄ Helpfulby Steve_Karl 2016/09/20 20:11:06
I would say that EQ and different guitar sounds are your friend here
You mentioned you wanted to add "texture" - I think you almost need to change your mindset and completely forget how individual elements sound and just think about the bigger picture
Eg - I would suggest using extreme EQ on the different parts so that you make the best of each sound - IE if you have a throaty mid range guitar tone take the lows and highs out, then find a nice thin/scooped tone and take the lows and mids out (being quite extreme)
On their own they may sound "weak" but together you should start building the "texture" you are after without increasing the mud
I would also suggest panning everything to the centre whilst EQing and not rely on pan for separation until you are happy that you don't have a mushy/muddy mess - panning will then help open things up
Good luck!
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Zargg
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/20 06:48:13
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Boydie
I would also suggest panning everything to the centre whilst EQing and not rely on pan for separation until you are happy that you don't have a mushy/muddy mess - panning will then help open things up
Good luck!
I think this is very good advice
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JohanSebatianGremlin
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/20 07:26:59
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☄ Helpfulby jude77 2016/09/20 20:42:13
First of all, don't believe everything you read in trade rags. When in doubt, use your ears. Listen to the finished track in question and ask yourself how many separate guitars you actually hear in the mix. The answer will usually be 1. If that producer needed 20 tracks of mics and alternate takes to get to that 1 guitar part in the final mix, then so be it. But don't look at those 20 tracks and think you're hearing 20 different guitar parts because generally you're not hearing more than 1 or 2. Beyond that, everyone else has already given you great advice. Treat reverb and delay as though the mix knob controls the price and be careful about how much you spend. Also if the song really does contain multiple unique guitar parts, hard pan them as much as possible. Rhythm guy? You get the left speaker. Lead guy? you're in the right speaker. Singer guy who thinks the the other two guitars aren't enough and the world needs his 6 string contributions on top of it all? You get panned 1/3 one side or the other depending on what you're playing compared to what they're playing. And then you get eq'd and compressed until there's no danger of anyone getting hurt.
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jb101
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/20 08:20:26
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I think think the voicing of the separate parts are important. Don't let them step on each other. Yse different inversions.
If one guitar is playing an "open C" chord, then have the other guitar play a three note chord on the top strings at the eighth fret, for example.
If there is a keyboard part, make sure it is playing in a different register to the guitars, etc etc..
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snc6
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/20 16:21:18
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I remember watching a video called "Mix it like a record" this help me alot concerning various delays and reverb buses with in a mix......just me thinking out loud again.
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jude77
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/20 20:26:27
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JohanSebatianGremlin First of all, don't believe everything you read in trade rags. When in doubt, use your ears. Listen to the finished track in question and ask yourself how many separate guitars you actually hear in the mix. The answer will usually be 1. If that producer needed 20 tracks of mics and alternate takes to get to that 1 guitar part in the final mix, then so be it. But don't look at those 20 tracks and think you're hearing 20 different guitar parts because generally you're not hearing more than 1 or 2. Beyond that, everyone else has already given you great advice. Treat reverb and delay as though the mix knob controls the price and be careful about how much you spend. Also if the song really does contain multiple unique guitar parts, hard pan them as much as possible. Rhythm guy? You get the left speaker. Lead guy? you're in the right speaker. Singer guy who thinks the the other two guitars aren't enough and the world needs his 6 string contributions on top of it all? You get panned 1/3 one side or the other depending on what you're playing compared to what they're playing. And then you get eq'd and compressed until there's no danger of anyone getting hurt.
These are really good words!! If you listen to most recordings you rarely hear more than three instruments playing while the vocal is happening (usually drums/bass/some type of rhythm instrument). There are exceptions, of course, but it's a good general truth to follow.
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Anderton
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/21 00:27:32
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☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2016/09/22 11:38:42
A picture is worth a thousand words, and all that...this shows how in many places in a song, there are only a few tracks playing. The overall sound is still big, though, because they create so much space for each other. (Of course this is only one song, but hopefully you'll find the dissection helpful.) This is a recent song. The top three tracks - Drums, Rapture Pro Gibson Bass, and Rhythm Guitar play pretty much throughout the song (which is rare for me - normally I'll drop these out in a few places). The green tracks are vocals and the lower four tracks are all Rapture Pro parts. Note that until measure 26, most of the time there's a maximum of four tracks playing. There are two short parts where in one the harmony vocal plays, and in another, there's a drone. Still, that's only five tracks. Starting at measure 26 is the "big chorus." The Staccato Key and Plucked Key are panned oppositely, and work with the guitar to provide texture. Even the "biggest" part of the song so far is 7 tracks. The solo starting at measure 42 has only 6 tracks, and note how soft the guitar track is - that's to make room for the lead at the bottom. The "massed vox" are just a choir where I recorded a bunch of parts into Take Lanes, then collapsed them all to make a chorus. They provide a background. 8 tracks play only at the very end, where the two vocals are both happening. The Power Chords in track 5 are there to add some final emphasis.
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Jeffiphone
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/21 11:40:18
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Two things that I've found make a difference, are: 1) Turn down the distortion on guitar tracks when using amp sims. Unless you're going for a full-on metal sound, you don't need all that distortion. Yes, it sounds good when jamming or tracking. But you'll soon realize that in the mix, you do not need all that distortion. I was really surprised at how little distortion you actually need to make guitars sound great in the mix. Lately, I've been using the old Fender amp models on Amplitube (Twin Reverb, etc), and adding an overdrive pedal, with just a little bit of drive for rock rhythm parts. Then I also have a completely clean rhythm guitar with a chorus pedal. When all the guitars come together in the mix, you'll realize how little distortion you actually need. 2) The capo is your friend. When tracking multiple guitars, try using a capo on one or two of them, while playing the others w/o the capo. Same chords, just higher up the fretboard. For instance, record a clean guitar track just playing normal open chords or bar chords. Then record a dirty track, same chords, but with the capo. This gives you a really nice full sound with minimal guitar tracks. And definitely put the two on different amps to differentiate them.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/21 12:23:38
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Just wondering why this thread is not in techniques? Good stuff everyone. Lot of tips I've always used. . I'm not a fan of doubling vocals,, always sounded cheesy to me. But 5 or 6 guitars parts is not hard to do if you are creative with how each part is recorded and using different Guitar voicing's, different guitars, different amps. panning
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JohanSebatianGremlin
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/21 20:16:40
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☄ Helpfulby jude77 2016/09/22 11:02:34
I've been thinking more about this since the other day. I've got another thought of it that some may find... well... perhaps a bit rude. So forgive me in advance.
Way back when I was still in my teens, I had a girlfriend who had hair that was about shoulder length. She really wanted to grow it longer but it always seemed a struggle for her to get it to grow much longer than it was. One day while she was sitting the chair at the salon, she asked the stylist why she had so much trouble getting her hair to grow any longer than it was.
Her stylist didn't pull any punches. He said if you want to grow your hair longer, stop cutting it. Should have been obvious, but it wasn't. Conventional wisdom at the time (maybe still?) said if you want your hair to grow faster, cut off the split ends. But the reality is, if you want it longer, stop making it shorter. He was right. She stopped allowing anyone to cut of her hair no matter how small or insignificant and less than a year later, she had the length she'd been looking for.
Ok so now the rude part. If you want your mixes to be more open, stop making recordings that are less open. There are a million and one tricks to adding multiple guitar parts to a song and ending up with a clean mix that isn't terribly muddy. But not terribly muddy isn't necessarily the same as what one would call open.
Maybe I'm getting hung up on semantics here and maybe my definition of an open mix is different than someone else's definition. To me, an open sounding mix has space. It has room to breath. And every element can easily be picked out and clearly heard. It is very difficult to create a mix that has space and room to breath when the arrangement itself is cluttered.
Leaving open space in the mix requires... well, open space. Mixing 101 tells us that one of the primary jobs of EQ in a mix is to carve out a unique sonic space for every element of the song. The more elements the song has, the more frequencies will need to be carved into their own unique space. Which means each frequency space will therefore have to be smaller and therefore less spacious. If you want something that is open and has space. But the parts that are there aren't seeming like they're enough and you feel you need extra guitar parts happening, maybe its time to rethink some the parts that are already there. Maybe some of them can come out? Maybe something already there just needs a bit more flourish? I don't want to get too deep into the weeds on the producer side but the point is, perhaps the best solution to this perceived mixing problem is to treat it as a producing/arranging problem. Just a thought.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/21 20:40:10
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☄ Helpfulby jude77 2016/09/22 11:02:42
Like I have said before if many of you suddenly had the opportunity to work with a really great producer and you showed them where you were up to the first thing they would do is rip out about 60 percent of the stuff that is in there now. They would be saying do you need this, do you need that, why have you got 15 acoustic parts here when only one will do. Listen to Steely Dan for the ultimate in economical parts. The trouble is the music in most cases is boring and not great so people are trying to make it better by filling it all up but it just does not work. The music say in Steely Dan's case is brilliant so then what is going on there is just the minimum to get the message across. I like Craig's example above. He has sort of nailed it actually. I bet that music sounds good and big but still has the message with only 7 or 8 tracks. You should be able to see what I call the black backdrop behind the music. If you cannot then you are going down the wrong path. What you guys are doing by piling it all on is creating what I call a grey backdrop. No amount of carving out frequencies and stuff for parts in other parts compares to not having so much going on in any one point. All fantastic mixes have the back backdrop in common. Even Dark Side of the Moon does. It is so obvious to me. You can walk around inside the mix and touch it. The trouble is we have too many tracks available now. There is an interesting thread going on in the Techniques area on why working with very limited resources makes you better. I only had 4 tracks to start with (in 1980) but spent years perfecting the art of making incredible (electronic) music with just those 4 tracks. Every sound counted and had to have a god damn good reason for being there. I then moved up to 8 tracks for years and really mastered the art of making great music with only 8 tracks. When I studied my Jazz degree many years ago it always used to blow my mind how complex the music could get with only 3 or 4 musicians. You should be able to do it with same number of tracks. When Return to Forever came out here only a few years ago there were not many of them on the stage you know but Oh My God did the music get complex. Why? Well for a start the music was ridiculous and so was the musicianship. Seems that the better these things get the less you actually need to get the message across. Even when you want to create a dense complex piece it is still amazing how little you need to actually do it. In complex classical music yes with 80 musicians or more you can still see the black backdrop behind. Because many of them are playing the same parts and there is not actually not so much going on when you listen right into it.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2016/09/21 21:18:58
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Anderton
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Re: Less tracks for a more open sound, or does it really matter?
2016/09/21 21:28:25
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Jeff Evans Listen to Steely Dan for the ultimate in economical parts. The trouble is the music in most cases is boring and not great so people are trying to make it better by filling it all up but it just does not work.The music say in Steely Dan's case is brilliant so then what is going on there is just the minimum to get the message across. I like Craig's example above. He has sort of nailed it actually. I bet that music sounds good and big but still has the message with only 7 or 8 tracks.
All your comments are spot on...but with respect to the last quoted sentence, at the risk of great personal embarrassment I did a reference mix so people could hear for themselves what that number of tracks sounds like. Below is the **UNLISTED** link to the video, please don't share it...the song is only a day old so it's very rough, and I'll remove the link before too long to avoid additional personal embarrassment. If you want to jump to the "interesting parts" starting at measure 26, they're about a minute into the song. On the plus side, it is to my knowledge the only song in the known universe where the words reference "To Know Him Is to Love Him," a Phil Spector song performed by The Teddy Bears
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