greekmac7
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Lets talk pre-amps.........
Hi guys, I've been learning about recording techniques and sonar for about a month now and things are getting better but the more I learn the more I realise how little I really know :) Here are 2 recordings I just finished for my greek band..... www.myspace.com/goodbadbeatman the 'live' one isn't really recorded live - i just tried to make it seem that way to disguise tempo issues. Anyway..............my main concern is with the vocals. The instruments sound pretty bang on for the genre and considering my inexperience and the budget equipment we're using, but the vocals let the whole thing down. We've recorded other stuff in a studio and the vocals have been impressive there so I'm thinking its maybe something I'm doing wrong with the recording and production. I used a Shure SM58 with a pop filter. (I have a shure sm57 too if thats a better option) My equalizer was a variation of the 'subtle analogue warmth' preset on the linear EQ. (was this the wrong choice?) I have no pre-amp....does this make the difference ultimately? So to sum it all up....is it the mic? the preamp? or the EQ? (ok so the singer isn't barry white - that probably makes a difference too, but we can't change that)
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batsbrew
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 13:28:01
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everything makes a difference.
can you capture without a preamp?
of course.
but is it going to sound pro?
no.
so, you have to just pin down exactly how good you want your stuff to sound, and build it from there.
it'll take cash.
it'll take a lot of homework.
it'll take demo'ing lots of gear.
it's what everybody else does.
sometimes it's easier to just find a group that you like their sound, and find out what kind of gear they use..... mic preamps, compressors, microphones, cables, limiters, monitors, mixers, etc...
it all adds up.
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greekmac7
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 14:12:09
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any entry level preamps you'd recommend?
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batsbrew
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 14:30:44
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WELL, I've got 2 mic pres i use, one a low end, one a high end.. the low end, is a ART DPS II it sounds great to me. it has (2) mic preamps (with a tube in the loop for distorting it), and a digital convertor...... so if you have a digital input in your sound card or interface, you can go directly, and the convertor becomes the master. it sounds good. i bought mine for about $225. my high end is a A Designs Audio MP-1. it's a single channel Class A tube preamp. they don't make the single channel version anymore, they make the dual channel.  it lists for $2795.00, and is worth every penny.
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batsbrew
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 14:33:13
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i would spend the money on a better microphone first, and if you go with a condenser, you'll have to also get a preamp that can give you phantom power.
like i said, much homework you need to do first....
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greekmac7
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 15:24:10
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I see- So it's probably more useful to get a better mic, than to attach a pre onto a shure sm58.......... But if I get a condenser mic I'll still need a preamp with phantom power? hmmmmmmmmm  I have a powered mixer that we use for live performances which has a phantom power button - could I pass the mic through that? Or should I buy a better dynamic mic?
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greekmac7
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 15:33:08
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in my guide book i read about the Rode NT1A condenser mic - is this the answer?
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 16:39:15
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I think a general idea that may work is this:
1) If you have a $300 budget a nice mic is a better upgrade than a new preamp.
2) If you have a $1200 dollar budget a new preamp may be a better upgrade than a new mic.
I think many cheap mics sound really good through a great preamp but even the nicest mic will sound like a cheap preamp if that's what you run it through.
best,
mike
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ohhey
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 17:51:33
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greekmac7
Hi guys,
I've been learning about recording techniques and sonar for about a month now and things are getting better but the more I learn the more I realise how little I really know :)
Here are 2 recordings I just finished for my greek band.....
www.myspace.com/goodbadbeatman
the 'live' one isn't really recorded live - i just tried to make it seem that way to disguise tempo issues.
Anyway..............my main concern is with the vocals. The instruments sound pretty bang on for the genre and considering my inexperience and the budget equipment we're using, but the vocals let the whole thing down. We've recorded other stuff in a studio and the vocals have been impressive there so I'm thinking its maybe something I'm doing wrong with the recording and production.
I used a Shure SM58 with a pop filter. (I have a shure sm57 too if thats a better option)
My equalizer was a variation of the 'subtle analogue warmth' preset on the linear EQ. (was this the wrong choice?)
I have no pre-amp....does this make the difference ultimately?
So to sum it all up....is it the mic? the preamp? or the EQ? (ok so the singer isn't barry white - that probably makes a difference too, but we can't change that)
You can't use a mic unless you have some type of preamp, how does the mic connect to your computer ? Does your audio interface or sound card have a microphone input with the three pins (XLR) ? If you have a mic input with phantom power the first thing I would try is a condensor mic. That will let you hear the difference between a dynamic and a condensor. Here is a link to a cheap but good sounding one. http://www.pssl.com/MXL-S...o-Microphone-With-Clip After you hear and understand the difference the mic makes then you can start looking for the next weakest link (the preamp). It won't be the huge difference like the microphone but if you need a lot of detail or lower noise it's the next step to truly pro sound. The difference you hear will depend on just how bad your existing preamp is.
post edited by ohhey - 2010/02/22 17:57:36
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greekmac7
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 19:17:38
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I have an E-MU 0404 audio interface. In my home recording guide book it shows me that the Rode NT1A mic can plug directly into the 0404 interface, so I'm guessing it has phantom power capabilities.
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greekmac7
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 19:27:22
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just checked the internet and it does have phantom power :)
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skullsession
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 19:28:50
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ohhey
You can't use a mic unless you have some type of preamp, how does the mic connect to your computer ? Well....not exactly true. Try it once with a dynamic mic and a loud amp or snare drum.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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skullsession
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 19:34:33
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Greekmac...OPA!
I've listened. It sounds nowhere near as bad as you seem to indicate. In fact, to be honest, I think your vocals sound better than most of the instrumentation.
I MEAN....
Nice playing, but most everything sounds a little "tinny". A little harsh and thin. But not really bad!
Look...for your vocal, lose the pop filter, move closer to the mic and use the proximity effect to your advantage to make the voice seem LARGER. Lose a bit of the reverb on the voice, add a bit of chorus to the voice, and your vocals would sound fine.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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greekmac7
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 19:38:12
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hmmmmmm........i guess my unsophisticated mastering doesn't help much - in the car and on big headphones it was sounding fully, but through other speakers i'm sure it sounds tinnier, but i'm getting better at sorting that.
So I shouldn't buy a Rode?
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skullsession
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 19:42:47
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You can buy what you want....but seriously, that vocal sounds like you were several inches away from the SM58.
GET UP ON THAT SUCKER! The 58 really likes a vocalist to be like within 2 inches...maybe even touching the grill....to get the most out of it. It can be pretty ballsy if you're right on it.
If I were you, I'd give that a go before I spent any more cash. Learn the tools you have a little better before you try to buy your way to the next level. I'm only saying that because I personally believe your vocal should be stronger with the 58.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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greekmac7
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 19:48:19
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ok - its worth a try, although the pop filter thing worries me
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skullsession
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 19:54:14
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Just work the mic properly and you'll be fine without a pop filter. I do it all day long here with large diaphram condensors. Heck...If it makes you feel better...just slam the pop filter right up on the 58's grill and lean into it. But whatever you do...get CLOSE on that mic and see if it makes the difference you're looking for. AND...don't underestimate the power of good compression on a vocal to help bring out the body of the voice! I love the tunes, btw....reminds me of the stuff I heard in "greektown" in the heart of Detroit while I was there a few years ago!
post edited by skullsession - 2010/02/22 19:56:55
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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greekmac7
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 19:57:42
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thanks but they're not ours unfortunately, they're just covers of old folk stuff :)
When we play live I actually do get really close to the mic so i'll try it tomorrow and report back
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35mm
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 20:28:12
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Forget the preamp. You already have those in your sound card, and they are probably just fine. Get a good, large diaphragm condenser mic, such as a Rode NT1A which will work nicely on a range of voice types. Stand alone preamps have become all the rage recently, but they won't make a bad sound good, or make a good sound pro. Knowing how to use what you have, and using the right techniques is what gives you the pro sound! While an SM58 is great for live vocals, and has it's other uses in the studio too, for recording vocals in the studio you want to use a large condenser mic, and a pop sheild. It will make all the diference!
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 21:21:11
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IMO, stand alone preamps have become all the rage recently because folks figured out they were the most important part in a $500,000 console.
So for about $20k you can have 24 mix and match channels of the best part of a bunch of different 1/2 million dollar consoles.
That is why stand alone pre amps are all the rage.
That and isolated power supplies.
:-)
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ohhey
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/22 22:49:30
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skullsession
Greekmac...OPA!
I've listened. It sounds nowhere near as bad as you seem to indicate. In fact, to be honest, I think your vocals sound better than most of the instrumentation.
I MEAN....
Nice playing, but most everything sounds a little "tinny". A little harsh and thin. But not really bad!
Look...for your vocal, lose the pop filter, move closer to the mic and use the proximity effect to your advantage to make the voice seem LARGER. Lose a bit of the reverb on the voice, add a bit of chorus to the voice, and your vocals would sound fine.
OK, shame on me I didn't listen first. Yeah... that is great sounding stuff. The vocal "tone" really fits the mix and the mix is well done. There are quality problems but I think it's just the LoFi web streaming that is causing that. Dude... that is a seriously cool sound. I can't really tell if a better mic or preamp would add anything. The vocal just fits the mix as is. It gives it a live tone and in some cases using a "better" mic will sound worse. So again, I think the first step would be to try a condensor mic and just see if it sounds any better. They do sound more true to life and are fun to record with. If for no other reason just to see how good a recording can be. Just don't get to the point where you go with higher quality just for the sake of quality. Don't let the vocal swamp the mix, you are on the right track already and the vocal fits in there and sounds like a real live band.
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greekmac7
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/23 08:15:40
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Ok, i think i'm definately going to get a rode nt1a. I acknowledge that it won't perform miracles but every little helps :) I remember watching a movie about a gangster rapper who pawned his and his wife's wedding rings to buy a good condensor mic because his average mic wasn't hacking it......maybe there was some truth in that. Here are the original songs for anyone interested :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8PWZFoAIFE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3YqwPoEFmw
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/23 08:22:43
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"I remember watching a movie about a gangster rapper who pawned his and his wife's wedding rings to buy a good condensor mic because his average mic wasn't hacking it......maybe there was some truth in that."
You should work on improving your memory.
The dude in the movie PIMPED his working girl to a greaser so he could get his hands on a $40 Chinese mic.
The movie had a conclusion.... the mic wasn't worth it. :-)
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greekmac7
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/24 05:53:54
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LOL.
To be honest though, I like my version of the story better :)
Maybe I should quit the whole music thing and become a script writer :D
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/24 07:18:51
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You are a good sport!
I don't have high speed internet so I haven't heard your tunes yet... but I look forward to listening the nest time I get a chance.
all the best,
mike
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guitartrek
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/24 22:06:34
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Greekmac7 - Honestly - your vocals performance and processing sound pretty good as is. I used to record vocals with a Beta58 and always had some weird crap happening in the midrange. I've heard this complaint from sound engineers too. I bought a large diaphram condenser, and all that heavy midrange went away. In my case I bought a Sure KSM27 for about $300. I've been recording direct through a UX2 and then applying a pre-amp plug-in to the dry signal. Lately I have used Sonar's new vocal strip - and that is really amazing.
I'd first get a decent vocal mic - and then make sure you have a decent recording environment to kill all the early reflectsions - those can really make your voice sound strange. I'm using a reflexion filter and it works perfect. Without these two issues taken care of, a pre-amp won't really matter. Also - with the modern plug-ins you don't necessarily need a pre-amp. You could try some plug-ins first to save some money. You can always buy a pre-amp if you aren't satisfied.
Since most stores won't let you take home mics to try (for health reasons), my Guitar Center let me audition several mics in the store - recording my voice and letting me compare. You need to find a mic suited to your voice. Each one is different, and engineers pick mics to suit artists. You won't know until you try them out.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/25 07:44:16
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"Also - with the modern plug-ins you don't necessarily need a pre-amp."
I disagree.
:-)
You are of course using a preamp of some type with the microphone... and of course the condenser mic has a second underappreciated pre amp built in to it as well.
So, like, if you have a Condenser mic you actually NEED two pre amps just to get into the computer.
Here's the question... are you able to be satisfied with an industrial grade preamp? Or are you prepared to hear the difference?
My opinion is that a SM58 into a very nice preamp will be more musical than a inexpensive (BTW the Shure recommended is an expensive inexpensive mic) condenser bumped through an industrial grade preamp that probably also sports a noisy phantom power supply. You can have fast grain with a hi freq boost on a cheap condenser... or you can have silk. I go for the silk... you can add grainy textures later.
I ran a EV RE50 into a Chandler TG2 into a Purple MC77 yesterday for scratch tracks. It's like squeezing juice.
all the best,
mike
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greekmac7
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/25 13:56:20
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Ok so I'm pretty much decided on buying a Rode NT1A - It seems a safe option. A solid basic condensor mic - that will sound satisfacory in most situations.......right?
and its only £150 with a free DVD :D
Mike I really don't have the money for a pre-amp and from what I gather - getting a condensor mic will make more of a difference to my sound and hopefully I won't have to pimp anyone ;)
How can I minimise reflections cheaply? is there a way to do it with smoke and mirrors? I've seen sound screen thingys in shops but they look like they cost money and i'm not donald trump.
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ohhey
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/25 14:07:48
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greekmac7
Ok so I'm pretty much decided on buying a Rode NT1A - It seems a safe option. A solid basic condensor mic - that will sound satisfacory in most situations.......right?
and its only £150 with a free DVD :D
Mike I really don't have the money for a pre-amp and from what I gather - getting a condensor mic will make more of a difference to my sound and hopefully I won't have to pimp anyone ;)
How can I minimise reflections cheaply? is there a way to do it with smoke and mirrors? I've seen sound screen thingys in shops but they look like they cost money and i'm not donald trump.
Stay as far away from walls and other hard surfaces as possible. Smooth walls are bad.. if you have to turn the couch up on it's end and place it against the wall. LOL ! 
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AT
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Re:Lets talk pre-amps.........
2010/02/25 14:40:09
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The cheapest thing to do is record in a room w/ furniture in it - upturning couches included.
Go to the corner and face out to the mic. Behind you you can hang a blanket or quilt. The mic will pick up mostly direct sound while the reflections bounce back and will be attenuated by the blanket behind you.
@
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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