tfbattag
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Lip Smacks and other artifacts
Just wondering if you guys go through and remove these types of noises.
Thomas Battaglia :wq! ----------------------------------------------------------- Intel DP35DP, Q6600, 6GB RAM, Win7Pro x64; RME HDSPe RayDAT; RME ADI8-DS x2, RME ADI-2.
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Lip Smacks and other artifacts
2013/01/06 00:43:28
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It depends horses for courses. If its a pop or dance track then it's yes. Listen to any modern pop dance track and u will notice a really unrealistic vocal with none of these artifacts but for anything else use your own judgement. But really a good singer has a good microphone technique and should know how to avoid such problem and that goes for a good engineer and good microphone choice.
Peace Ben
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Lip Smacks and other artifacts
2013/01/06 01:05:21
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tfbattag
Just wondering if you guys go through and remove these types of noises.
Yeah bro, removal at all times unless something sounds like it fits. The best bet is to split clips and fade on stuff like this or just slip edit whenever possible until they go away. The better the mic, the more sensitive it is...the more you may see this animal. Sometimes it just happens and can't be helped....so it has to be removed. One thing that will stop this as well as other artifacts is, always slip edit all the empty space in your clips. I usually do it manually, but I have used process/effects/remove silence many times. You have to mess with it as it may cut off some good things, but once you get it set up just right, you can slip edit a project in seconds. :) -Danny
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Lip Smacks and other artifacts
2013/01/06 09:55:55
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Yep...always.
It's very easy to go in and do that.... once you get the hang of it, you can easily do a complete track in a few minutes.
I always get the lip smacks because they sound like clicks ..... I will generally get the breath intake sounds early on in the song..... I make that part quiet.... as the song goes on and the singer gets "more into the emotion" I will leave the breath sounds BUT, I will lower the levels to barely audible.... it does tend to add to the emotion a bit but never allow them to be a distraction.
I simply use the audio process>gain> mute or reduce gain -6db... or what ever level is appropriate.
I do the same thing on amp and string noise. as well as singer grunts and other "unconscious" noises they make while singing.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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wst3
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Re:Lip Smacks and other artifacts
2013/01/06 10:01:32
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not always, but sometimes. I found the breath sounds in one of the recent Sonar demo tracks to be really distracting, so I muted them in Sound Forge and the track sounded better to me. But it isn't always the case, and you do have to be careful, sometimes muting sounds unnatural, and you need to just fade them in.
When I think about the time I spent spot erasing tape for this very same problem it makes me laugh!!!!!
-- Bill Audio Enterprise KB3KJF
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davdud101
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Re:Lip Smacks and other artifacts
2013/01/06 10:06:55
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I usual slip-edit stuff out and apply a Compresser over the vox.
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Beepster
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Re:Lip Smacks and other artifacts
2013/01/06 10:10:03
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I put a sock over my mic. ;-)
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Lip Smacks and other artifacts
2013/01/06 10:22:17
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When muting... you do have to be precise... I find that with the lip smacks of a singer opening their mouth, and then taking that breath in preparation to sing the next phrase..... If you zoom in, there is a definite wave blob for each sound AND there is space between the sound and the words...(zoom in far enough to clearly see that space and be able to get into it easily to click in there)...... if you select your mute into that silence area, starting well before the noise and ending in the center of the silence, the mute is flawless and will not interfere with the natural sound of the beginning of the singer's phrase. Of course.... you always check it. I start my playback in the center of the last phrase and play through my mute edit to be sure I didn't trim anything important. There is always UNDO. But 99% of the time, I got the edit perfect and click save and move to the next noise that needs muting. I normally do this sort of "cleanup editing" at the very end or nearly so, of the process. AND, I mute everything except the track I'm working on and one acoustic guitar track for reference. It's sometimes easier to solo the 2 tracks rather than mute everything else. But the whole point is to hear clearly, what you are working on.
post edited by Guitarhacker - 2013/01/06 10:23:44
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Beepster
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Re:Lip Smacks and other artifacts
2013/01/06 10:28:58
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Yeah, lots of cropping and fading. I rarely mess around with stuff that's in the middle of a clip though. I just rerecord it if the compression or whatever isn't reigning it in enough.
Thus the sock. I've also taken to setting up two mics. One that's close with a sock that I cram my face up against and one slightly further away without a sock. I make sure that second one is far enough away that it's not picking up and plosives or other garbage. Then if I do happen to get something undesirable on the close mic I can usually clean things up by messing with the levels between the two mics.
and yes... I mean an actual sock that goes on one's feet.
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tfbattag
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Re:Lip Smacks and other artifacts
2013/01/06 12:32:25
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I do too. But recently when doing it, I was going through vocal, bass and guitar tracks removing all the unnecessary noise. I do it just to reduce the overall noise floor. But during playback, it's really not that evident. This led me to wonder how people did this with two inch tape, etc. Thus the question.
Technique-wise, I do it the same way that most of you guys do. I always solo the track and just try to make sure that for things like vocals, the transition from one phrase to the next sounds natural.
Thanks for all of your input.
Thomas Battaglia :wq! ----------------------------------------------------------- Intel DP35DP, Q6600, 6GB RAM, Win7Pro x64; RME HDSPe RayDAT; RME ADI8-DS x2, RME ADI-2.
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Beepster
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Re:Lip Smacks and other artifacts
2013/01/06 13:06:27
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I'm not sure but I'm assuming in the old days it was a combination of techniques. Like making sure there was a good popfilter/windscreen/mic sleeve set up for the mic, compression/limiter and in post manually turning down the problem parts. I'm sure those engineers made sure they got takes as clean as possible too.
What a pain in the arse dealing with tape must have been. We got it good nowadays.
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IK Obi
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Re:Lip Smacks and other artifacts
2013/01/06 17:24:15
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Depends on the audio and the song. Sometimes for quieter songs they are distracting and I remove them. On louder rock mixes they can add some character or aren't noticeable so I leave them. I also leave them for acoustic styled recordings. Just seems more real for some songs. This, of course depends on how the sounds come across. If they are super loud or distracting I remove em.
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Philip
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Re:Lip Smacks and other artifacts
2013/01/06 20:20:22
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+1 all, I'd add Waves Z-noise remover ... which automatically detects 'most' such artifacts.
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wst3
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Re:Lip Smacks and other artifacts
2013/01/07 10:55:26
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☄ Helpful
to answer the question about tape...
first line of defense was well trained talent, and the right microphone for that talent positioned appropriately for the song. You'd be surprised what a difference this can make. I recently worked on a solo guitar album where the artist was very unhappy with all the mistakes he made. I asked him to go back to the studio, and ask the engineer to place the microphone differently. He was thrilled at the result, until he realized that the original performances were a little bit better in general, The second session sounded better though!
If a few clams sneak through you had a choice of muting the offensive noise during mixdown or performing the gentle act of 'spot erasure'.
Each has it's disadvantages
- there is no undo for a spot-erase, and it requires good ears and VERY steady hands. You disable the idler/capstan so you control the tape transport - you carefully mark the tape where there are noises, then you turn on the erase head and gently (and slow;y) pass the problem section of the tape over the erase head. You have to be gentle because it is very easy to create NEW pops this way. And you have to remember that the erase and playback heads are separated in space.
- the problem with mutes is that they can create really strange artifacts in outboard processors and effects - especially dynamics processors. And keeping track of exactly when to mute problems on 16 tracks is not as simple as it might sound. With the advent of automated mutes this second problem did become less of an issue. And if you had an empty track or two you could bounce the offending track over to the empty track with benefit of mutes. You risked the increased noise floor though.
These are some of the reasons why you will, from time to time, detect little anomalies and artifacts on some of your favorite recordings from the early 1980s and before. Funny thing is, they usually don't spoil anything!
-- Bill Audio Enterprise KB3KJF
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Beepster
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Re:Lip Smacks and other artifacts
2013/01/07 11:13:48
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That was very interesting, wst3. :-)
Very glad we don't have to go through all that anymore.
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LpMike75
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Re:Lip Smacks and other artifacts
2013/01/08 07:54:21
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Lip smacks are one of the most annoying sounds I can think of. Especially if you are editing VO.
I either delete them, or zoom way in and use volume automation.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Lip Smacks and other artifacts
2013/01/08 09:08:14
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I use Track Volume Envelopes for this sort of thing.
It's easy, non-destructive and usually forms part of my normal vocal volume automation in any case.
Plus, you can determine exactly how much attenuation is applied - we've discussed before how un-natural a descent into digital silence can be - using an envelope removes this problem, unlike slip editing or splitting/deleting
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tfbattag
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Re:Lip Smacks and other artifacts
2013/01/08 23:08:12
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wst3
to answer the question about tape...
first line of defense was well trained talent, and the right microphone for that talent positioned appropriately for the song. You'd be surprised what a difference this can make. I recently worked on a solo guitar album where the artist was very unhappy with all the mistakes he made. I asked him to go back to the studio, and ask the engineer to place the microphone differently. He was thrilled at the result, until he realized that the original performances were a little bit better in general, The second session sounded better though!
If a few clams sneak through you had a choice of muting the offensive noise during mixdown or performing the gentle act of 'spot erasure'.
Each has it's disadvantages
- there is no undo for a spot-erase, and it requires good ears and VERY steady hands. You disable the idler/capstan so you control the tape transport - you carefully mark the tape where there are noises, then you turn on the erase head and gently (and slow;y) pass the problem section of the tape over the erase head. You have to be gentle because it is very easy to create NEW pops this way. And you have to remember that the erase and playback heads are separated in space.
- the problem with mutes is that they can create really strange artifacts in outboard processors and effects - especially dynamics processors. And keeping track of exactly when to mute problems on 16 tracks is not as simple as it might sound. With the advent of automated mutes this second problem did become less of an issue. And if you had an empty track or two you could bounce the offending track over to the empty track with benefit of mutes. You risked the increased noise floor though.
These are some of the reasons why you will, from time to time, detect little anomalies and artifacts on some of your favorite recordings from the early 1980s and before. Funny thing is, they usually don't spoil anything!
Awesome information. Thanks Bill. Any chance you can identify some of the classics that may have an anomalie?
Thomas Battaglia :wq! ----------------------------------------------------------- Intel DP35DP, Q6600, 6GB RAM, Win7Pro x64; RME HDSPe RayDAT; RME ADI8-DS x2, RME ADI-2.
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