Helpful ReplyListening to Storage

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ston
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Beagle
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Re: Listening to Storage 2015/04/08 09:13:48 (permalink)
"Problem is, the sound of 'bit-identical' computer audio may well be just as inexplicably inconsistent as analogue."
 
wow.  just wow.

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ston
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Re: Listening to Storage 2015/04/08 12:17:40 (permalink)
I am creating a range of fine tone wood cases for USB drives which should allow fine control of the timbral shaping of music files played back from them.  Integrated within are micro-mesh faraday cages which help preserve the streaming bit pattern from being perturbed by external magnetic fields, cosmic rays and gravitational waves.
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Beagle
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Re: Listening to Storage 2015/04/08 12:45:45 (permalink)
ston
I am creating a range of fine tone wood cases for USB drives which should allow fine control of the timbral shaping of music files played back from them.  Integrated within are micro-mesh faraday cages which help preserve the streaming bit pattern from being perturbed by external magnetic fields, cosmic rays and gravitational waves.


you will make a fortune on that!

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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Mesh
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Re: Listening to Storage 2015/04/08 13:07:49 (permalink)
ston
 Integrated within are micro-mesh faraday cages......


I've been called much worse....but, I'm cage free now.

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#5
ston
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Re: Listening to Storage 2015/04/09 06:02:57 (permalink)
Beagle
you will make a fortune on that!

 
I know, right!
 
They're also input-buffered by beeswax capacitors (they're the buzziest!)
 
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/jupiter_flats_100v.html
 
Optionally, I might use the Yellow Vintage Tone caps, as they provide "a more authentic tone to the time period" and "Many users have reported that the Jupiter Vintage Tone caps give them the sound they have been searching since they began playing."
 
Presumably the capacitors detect the period the music is belonging to and fine-tune the tone accordingly.  Quite astonishing.  Forget the solid-state vs valves debacle, it's all about the caps (and bees!)
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Beagle
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Re: Listening to Storage 2015/04/09 08:36:18 (permalink)
ston
Beagle
you will make a fortune on that!

I know, right!
 
They're also input-buffered by beeswax capacitors (they're the buzziest!)
 
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/jupiter_flats_100v.html
 
Optionally, I might use the Yellow Vintage Tone caps, as they provide "a more authentic tone to the time period" and "Many users have reported that the Jupiter Vintage Tone caps give them the sound they have been searching since they began playing."
 
Presumably the capacitors detect the period the music is belonging to and fine-tune the tone accordingly.  Quite astonishing.  Forget the solid-state vs valves debacle, it's all about the caps (and bees!)




http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
i7, 16G DDR3, Win10x64, MOTU Ultralite Hybrid MK3
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slartabartfast
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Re: Listening to Storage 2015/04/09 13:44:35 (permalink)
OK I got bored pretty early in this piece, but it seems like they are saying that the digital audio stream delivered from different drives are different. That would seem to be possible, even plausible. A properly buffered system with a reliable clock should have no such difference in theory, except for dropped bits, but that is possible as are real time delays in the data delivery and processing. But they seem to have based that conclusion on listening to the sound output. And they seem to be comparing audible performance to a CD player as the gold standard, even though that system introduces many more sources of error. That is like measuring the voltage of a battery by putting your tongue on the contacts. With a bit of expense and trouble, they could have actually examined the bits arriving at the D/A stage and compared them exactly in the digital/time domain. Of course if they could demonstrate that the actual bits delivered at the actual time was identical in both systems, I have no doubt their conclusions would not have changed. 
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sharke
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Re: Listening to Storage 2015/04/09 16:20:51 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ericyeoman 2015/04/10 06:04:13
I don't get it, surely if storage mediums weren't outputting absolutely 100% identical bits, then they would be considered to unreliable to store/transfer computer code? A difference in one bit could mean the difference between a program working and not working.

James
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craigb
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Re: Listening to Storage 2015/04/09 19:42:28 (permalink)
slartabartfast
OK I got bored pretty early in this piece, but it seems like they are saying that the digital audio stream delivered from different drives are different. That would seem to be possible, even plausible. A properly buffered system with a reliable clock should have no such difference in theory, except for dropped bits, but that is possible as are real time delays in the data delivery and processing. But they seem to have based that conclusion on listening to the sound output. And they seem to be comparing audible performance to a CD player as the gold standard, even though that system introduces many more sources of error. That is like measuring the voltage of a battery by putting your tongue on the contacts. With a bit of expense and trouble, they could have actually examined the bits arriving at the D/A stage and compared them exactly in the digital/time domain. Of course if they could demonstrate that the actual bits delivered at the actual time was identical in both systems, I have no doubt their conclusions would not have changed. 




You're absolutely right!  They really should compare this by putting their tongue on the storage device. 

 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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ston
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Re: Listening to Storage 2015/04/10 11:10:50 (permalink)
slartabartfast
...it seems like they are saying that the digital audio stream delivered from different drives are different. That would seem to be possible, even plausible.



No.  It doesn't matter if the (for example) mp3 file is read from a USB drive, streamed wirelessly from a NAS box, encoded by a (very fast) human using morse code along telegraph wires, or even by data-transfer carrier pigeon.
 
You could even have a line of people shouting "zero" and "one" at each other (although buffering times would be in the order of months) as long as nobody said "one" when they should have said "zero".
 
Computers do not say one when they mean zero; any such transmission errors will be flagged by the frame/packet level CRC checks and retransmitted.  If you have binary identical files sitting on a multitude of different storage devices and transfer them to a computer (for decoding, playback etc.) then they will arrive binary-identical.
 
This thread is really about exposing techno-babble Snake-Oil BS for what it is.  If your capacitor is +/- 5% tolerance, then it doesn't provide you with warmer tones in an audio circuit just because it contains beeswax or has been made by hand-impregnating unbleached papyrus.  If you ask a computer to read an identical binary file from 500 different storage media, then you will end up with 500 identical files, not 500 different ones; the digital decoding of those files will be identical.
 
Don't even get me started on those 'audiophiles' who try to tell you that vinyl is a better media because it's analog...
 
The only exception to all this is of course my tone wood USB drive enclosures   Even non-musical files such as word documents or spreadsheets stored on them take on a more musical character.
 
This is perhaps the best example that I know of:
 
http://www.theregister.co...onkers_ethernet_cable/
 
Which is an article relating to this:
https://www.audiovisualon...j-e-ethernet-cable-12m
 
I honestly don't understand who they're trying to kid; there is no chance at all that the company are not aware that they are 100% lying.  Even a reasonably smart four year old will know that an ethernet cable is neither 'audio' nor 'directional'.
 
 
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slartabartfast
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Re: Listening to Storage 2015/04/10 12:02:26 (permalink)
Yes, I get that. Nonetheless the digital audio stream bit A arriving at real world time B directly from two drives is not always identical. Bits almost certainly (failures do occur) but times would be variable. That is the purpose of buffering in all of its various forms. Normally bits arrive and are held in a buffer from which they can be called and coordinated with the clocking of the device that plans to use them. If operation 2+3 is called, and 3 is not available, the operation will wait until 3 arrives and the result of 5 will be generated when it does. The timing of that kind of operation is not critical. But audio data is very dependent on an accurate clock in the final output stage. The only way I can see that these guys could have actually produced a difference is if they somehow managed to defeat the buffering and accurate clock that should be built in to a D/A converter. If they are using the clock from the NAS or the unbuffered data delivery from storage to generate the sound, it is theoretically possible to produce a stream that has the same data bits but delivered at slightly different times. What the purpose of the oversampler in their routing is escapes me. 
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jamesg1213
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Re: Listening to Storage 2015/04/10 12:23:07 (permalink)
I only made it to 'Press play'.
 
Life's too short, frankly.

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



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drewfx1
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Re: Listening to Storage 2015/04/10 16:36:55 (permalink)
stonThis is perhaps the best example that I know of:
 
http://www.theregister.co...onkers_ethernet_cable/
 
Which is an article relating to this:
https://www.audiovisualon...j-e-ethernet-cable-12m
 
I honestly don't understand who they're trying to kid; there is no chance at all that the company are not aware that they are 100% lying.  Even a reasonably smart four year old will know that an ethernet cable is neither 'audio' nor 'directional'.
 



In response to this someone did a rather amusing test where they had someone stream audio from Europe using whatever (non-audiophile) trans-Atlantic cables are there and demonstrated that the measured results were pretty much identical to streaming across the room.
 
 
I'm hesitant to distinguish a level of stupidity here any worse than anything else. These very forums are full of people who believe equally ridiculous stuff simply because it sounds plausible to them and they don't have enough of a technical understanding to see why something is really quite ridiculous.

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craigb
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Re: Listening to Storage 2015/04/10 19:05:25 (permalink)
drewfx1
I'm hesitant to distinguish a level of stupidity here any worse than anything else. These very forums are full of people who believe equally ridiculous stuff simply because it sounds plausible to them and they don't have enough of a technical understanding to see why something is really quite ridiculous.



Like how some think there's a major sound improvement using super-expensive, nitrogen-free Monster cables in the indicated direction versus using a thick, copper wire?  (Blind tests proved these so-called audiophiles couldn't tell the difference.) 
 
(Note that I own a LOT of Monster cable, but I bought it at 20% of it's normal cost.  )

 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
#15
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