Helpful ReplyLogic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar".

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ericthompson001@hotmail.com
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2014/03/18 13:49:49 (permalink)

Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar".

I have been sonar user since 386 windows 3.11 soundblaster days and I love X3.  I got logic so I can get my extremely talented son experience on another platform and the recordings we made right out of the the box sound great, because of all the "template" setups built in.  when I select a vocal track, it sets up all these effects for a basic vocal track, deesser, compressor, reverb, already setup EQ.  etc.  and there are other presets you can choose.
 
this one feature pisses me off because the darn song he made sounds just as good if not better then my masters in sonar.  
 
Where do I find these "templates" or wizards in sonar and how can we get sonar to add them to the feature list? Sonar programmers, use a copy of logic and spend a day playing with it.  I am a PC user thru and thru and spent on week with a MAC and logic and I see the advantages in these preset mixes.
 
what do you folks know/think?
#1
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2014/03/20 09:40:07 (permalink)
Depending on which version you have, there are plenty of presets in Pro Channel format as well as hundreds of ready built FX Chains.

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Living Room Rocker
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2014/04/13 23:40:29 (permalink)
Yeah, there are a lot more factors to consider affecting the "sound" than the DAW software it is processed with.

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#3
ericthompson001@hotmail.com
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2014/06/18 11:25:01 (permalink)
Kind of missing the point a little bit.  so I select vocal track in logic and I have to do nothing else. it sets up a standard vocal effects chain.  Then I can go in and change it.  In other words its a track template.  Why can't we do that with sonar? Its the one feature that seems to set logic, garageband, and the apple stuff apart? how hard would that be?  Anyway, I can create my own template but that is not as cool. ;)
#4
Ruben
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2014/06/18 11:46:09 (permalink)
I know this isn't exactly what you mean, but you can save FX presets in Sonar, via the FX bin context menu. So you could set up a vocal effects chain that you like, the save it and call it back into any other track at any other time, basically using it as a standard effects chain like Logic's. I guess the difference between this and Logic's standard effects chain is that Logic has it's default setting built-in and Sonar doesn't - you have to create one with Sonar, AFAIK. Which I like a bit better because then I can customize it to my liking instead of having a generic standard setting thrown at me.
post edited by Ruben - 2014/06/18 12:01:52

  
#5
dubdisciple
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2014/06/18 12:04:27 (permalink)
I use logic and you are making these templates sound more magical than they are. They literally do nothing more than one could achieve by saving track templates. If you take a good look at exactly what is done in logic, you will find that likeball fx chain presets, they are great starting points (especially for beginners) but they require massive adjustment for all but the simplest of projects. The project and track templates in Sonar along with pro channel and fx chains offer similar functionality although admittedly slightly easier ton implement. Tone fair, simple tasks like adding an arpeggiator in Logic is needlessly complicated.
#6
Cactus Music
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2014/06/18 17:59:06 (permalink)
I guess nobodys wants to learn the craft anymore, just push a button and be a pro! Lots of money to be made packaging the concept too.
This all makes the creation of good music into a "fun" game  and there's nothing wrong with that concept. Let the apps rain down from heaven that make music making a childs game. That music has always existed in one form or another since the invention of a Home Organ with Magic Chords.  I for one am glad that the developers of Sonar prefer to keep it as it is and let me pick the processing.   
If everyone starts using cookie cutter templates for music then I'm not sure I want to listen to the results anymore than I enjoy listening to automated keyboard tracks or magic chords.  But the bottom line is someone IS creating something and that will always be a good thing.
 
 

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#7
dubdisciple
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2014/06/18 20:22:55 (permalink)
Logic is definitely far from a cookie cutter type of software. Anyone who thinks Logic will crank out a hit for them without talent is delusional. As good as Ozone's presets are, they are merely a good start and will not turn crap into a professional quality master.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2014/06/18 20:50:01 (permalink)
Good to hear, I'll relax now  :) 

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#9
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2014/06/20 11:24:21 (permalink)
ericthompson001@hotmail.com
Kind of missing the point a little bit.  so I select vocal track in logic and I have to do nothing else. it sets up a standard vocal effects chain.  Then I can go in and change it.  In other words its a track template.  Why can't we do that with sonar? Its the one feature that seems to set logic, garageband, and the apple stuff apart? how hard would that be?  Anyway, I can create my own template but that is not as cool. ;)


The point is, which I don't think anyone is missing, is that you can do exactly that in Sonar.
 
But you yourself will have to either create a track template from new or edit an existing one.

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#10
papacucku
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2015/04/13 16:33:27 (permalink)
you are all pretty much right on, the point is you put a real good tasting flavor on the first impression, so these young teenagers can open it up and get a quick fix, then you draw them in.  It is a known marketing tactic. 
 
You coat that first impression with super sweet love and then let them dig.  The 2 minute experience is a little better in Logic.  Something to think about , maybe.  Maybe not.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2015/04/13 16:54:55 (permalink)
I understand the appeal.  It is a dual edged sword though.  You get instant gratification on the off chance ,take for an example a vocal effects chain preset, the vocalist has the exact pitch. timbre and amplitude the preset is based on. Often  I had to go back through a bunch of older projects a colleague had mixed  in Logic with all presets and start from scratch. Everything was mud. If presets are to be used, delay type ones are a safer bet than anything that is frequency based. I find the kids that i walk through the individual aspects of each processor in a chain have a better grasp of what the presets are doing than the ones that just click and hope something sounds good.
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2015/04/13 16:59:51 (permalink)
Cactus Music
I guess nobodys wants to learn the craft anymore, just push a button and be a pro! Lots of money to be made packaging the concept too.
This all makes the creation of good music into a "fun" game  and there's nothing wrong with that concept. Let the apps rain down from heaven that make music making a childs game. That music has always existed in one form or another since the invention of a Home Organ with Magic Chords.  I for one am glad that the developers of Sonar prefer to keep it as it is and let me pick the processing.   
If everyone starts using cookie cutter templates for music then I'm not sure I want to listen to the results anymore than I enjoy listening to automated keyboard tracks or magic chords.  But the bottom line is someone IS creating something and that will always be a good thing.
 


well said, can't add to that :-)
 
i reckon in the early days everybody is a "preset" person (and I'm still when it comes to jotting down ideas quickly in the creative phase) ... yet, when it comes to crafting a certain sound for a band / project I use templates basically only to speed up workflow, but not to re-create pre-packaged sound (even if it originated in one of my other projects) ...

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Sanderxpander
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2015/04/13 17:10:17 (permalink)
What's funny is that Sonar had these track templates before Logic did. Maybe Sonar 6 or 7? I remember because I started with 6 and showed it to my Logic addict coworker who right off the bat said "seems kinda useless, I'd rather start fresh because every session is different and I don't want to get put myself in the mindset of doing things a certain way just because I did so last time".
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dubdisciple
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2015/04/13 17:27:39 (permalink)
I have found that even with the same artist, recording in the same room with the same mic that EQ and compression presets rarely deliver what i end up going wit in the end.
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bitflipper
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2015/04/13 17:31:57 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby dubdisciple 2015/04/13 17:41:33
Step into the Wayback Machine...
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?high=&m=164528&mpage=1#164528
 
This is the famous 2004 thread that coined the ongoing in-joke about "20-40%".
 


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konradh
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2015/04/13 17:44:43 (permalink)
I would be interested to know what is in those Logic templates.  For example, is it mostly EQ and compression, or are there effects as well?
 
I have a little PreSonus Eureka hardware channel strip I got a long time ago and that I still use sometimes with certain mics; and if you set the dials for EQ and Compression like it shows for starting settings in the manual, it sounds pretty good.  I'm just wondering if the Logic templates are something like that, or something more exotic.

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#17
dubdisciple
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2015/04/13 18:00:15 (permalink)
konradh
I would be interested to know what is in those Logic templates.  For example, is it mostly EQ and compression, or are there effects as well?
 
I have a little PreSonus Eureka hardware channel strip I got a long time ago and that I still use sometimes with certain mics; and if you set the dials for EQ and Compression like it shows for starting settings in the manual, it sounds pretty good.  I'm just wondering if the Logic templates are something like that, or something more exotic.


All kinds of stuff.  They range from simple like "male vocal" which is usually something like an eq with a HP, small presence bump and a compressor with a 2.5:1 setting to  "hip-ho" drumkits that load multiple samples on a track into the eXS24.  Unless you look closely, you have no idea what instrument is being loaded.  You just know it is a drum track and it sounds good.
#18
bitman
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2015/04/13 18:21:36 (permalink)
Tell him to go to his room.
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2015/04/13 18:22:01 (permalink)
Interesting subject.
I use my own templates exclusively that I have tweaked over the years-running 14-16 mics in a small room requires that.
With the same mics and d.i.s. in the same room it would seem pointless to set up per project templates as basically only volumes change.
As for presets,everyone wants instant playback,especially recording live and applying VC64 (master mix) or whatever the X3 equivalent is (Prochannel?) to the main bus can instantly transform a mix as playing back a dry take can sound pretty thin without presets.
Pretty sure there have been some pretty flash templates created and discussed in Techniques before?
cheers
tony
#20
gcolbert
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Re: Logic like wizards or templates? My son said "logic sounds better than sonar". 2015/04/13 19:58:43 (permalink)
There are hundreds of FX chain presets on my system that have been installed over time between X1 and SPlat.  There are more than 20 of them that are 'voice' FX.  This seems a more flexible solution than getting some default values from a track template.  I don't think any of my vocal tracks ends up with the same FX.  I guess you could find one that you like and save it as a 'Voice' template.
 
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