Helpful ReplyLooking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar...

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Soundwise
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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/07 06:42:20 (permalink)
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Studio One's "Arranger Track" function allows you to create song sections that cut through all project tracks, allowing you to easily copy or move a bridge or refrain to another section of the song with all tracks attached and aligned.
 

I've done this using the Matrix. I create clips, of the different sections of a song, and put them in cells, and arrange away.



Yeah, Matrix view is a lot more flexible and easier to operate than an Arranger track seems to be. And if you need to compare several versions of the same track just save them as versions or give 'em different names. It's better to have a cleaner representation of the material then cluttering your workspace with several cuts of the same song.
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John
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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/07 08:28:21 (permalink)
Arranger Tracks are the same concept as Cubase's Play Order tracks and a feature I would very much like in Sonar. I don't see the similarity with the Matrix view.  

Best
John
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/07 09:00:39 (permalink)
The Studio One Arranger track as far as I know is different to the Cubase play order tracks.  In Cubase the music never changes in terms of how it looks on the main arrange window.  You do create sections above that denote the various parts of the song.  In Cubase all you are doing is altering the play order.  Looking at a play order list means little.
 
In Studio One V3 you also create the song sections above the music as per Cubase. They can be colored and named. The difference is however you can click and drag the arranger sections around.  So all the tracks below are cut neatly and moved.  Sections can be repeated and ordered in any way.  As you move sections around all the tracks below move as well.  It is one thing to hear different arrangements but to see them is better still.
 
It is much better than the Cubase approach because you end up seeing all the music in the new arranged way as well as hearing it of course.  It is fast and very effective.  Once you have worked this way it is hard to go back to any other approach.
 
The scratch pads are also cool because you can create multiple arrangements and jump to them quickly and hear them too.  Whole arrangements can be copied from one scratchpad to the other.  Sections of songs can also be dragged from one scratchpad to another too.  It is clever.  No limit to the number of scratchpads. They can be named and selected fast.  And the whole thing still saved as only one Song file too.  Mixes can be completely different in the scratchpads as well.  Similar to mix recall.
 
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2015/10/07 09:15:51

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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/07 09:13:17 (permalink)
That sounds as if it is destructive in Studio 1 3. I liked the Cubase approach.  

Best
John
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/07 09:22:19 (permalink)
The audio files are not touched in any way. It is completely non destructive. You can put the arrangement back to what it was originally anytime you want. (As long as you have backed that up somehere!) Or create the main arrangement as normal. Then create a scratchpad and copy the whole thing over to that and get stuck into the new arrangement there instead.  You will always have the original intact you did first then you can go back to.
 
I think it is better than the Cubase approach. I guess it does a very similar thing in terms of how you hear it but I like seeing it as well.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2015/10/07 09:43:46

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Anderton
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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/07 12:05:24 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
In Studio One V3 you also create the song sections above the music as per Cubase. They can be colored and named. The difference is however you can click and drag the arranger sections around.  So all the tracks below are cut neatly and moved.  Sections can be repeated and ordered in any way.  As you move sections around all the tracks below move as well.  It is one thing to hear different arrangements but to see them is better still.

 
That's how I use Clip Groups...except that the top track is a "dummy" track with clips colored and named to provide identification. Because all the clips are grouped, moving the dummy clip moves all the clips below it.
 
Studio One may do it somewhat more efficiently, e.g., do the splits automatically, but moving around blocks of stuff is not a particularly common operation for me so changing it would be very low on my priorities list.
 
As to scratchpads, there's plenty of space on a timeline to put various clip groups and jump to them as needed. But as I've said before, the clip group concept is how Vegas does things. It's simple, fast, and has worked for me for years, so I like not having to change the workflow in SONAR. The only difference is that it's an operation I do all the time in Vegas, but rarely in SONAR; most of the time I know where a song is going, and I'm loathe to duplicate sections within a song, even if the parts are the same. I prefer to play new versions because in live performance, you don't copy and paste, you play. I like music that feels more "live."

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Soundwise
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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/07 15:31:18 (permalink)
John
Arranger Tracks are the same concept as Cubase's Play Order tracks and a feature I would very much like in Sonar. I don't see the similarity with the Matrix view. 

Yes, it's two different approaches.
If I'm unsure of the form of the track, I would bounce the entire track to a single file, slice it to parts and load these parts to the Matrix editor. Then it will be a lot easier to toggle between different cells and decide which form (order of the parts) feels best.
If I want to try different sounds, levels, plugins, etc., then Mix Recall feature is what the doctor ordered.
For different cuts I would use different projects.
Anyway, I see no reason to toss portions of arrangement around in a separate section, as it not only clutters the workspace and waists time, but puts quite a load on system resources.
As for the Cubase style arrangement track it looks like a good and very welcome feature.
post edited by Soundwise - 2015/10/07 15:44:54
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/07 15:55:50 (permalink)
Soundwise
Anyway, I see no reason to toss portions of arrangement around in a separate section, as it not only clutters the workspace and waists time, but puts quite a load on system resources.
As for the Cubase style arrangement track it looks like a good and very welcome feature.



Not quite right. No clutter. The scratchpads in Studio One can be slid out of the way so they do not clutter. No time wasted either. It is still a fast way to re-order an arrangement. System resources are not taxed either.
 
It is easy to make assumtpions without really using it. Basically you dont know until you have used it. It really does work. But the way Craig has described the Sonar approach also seems like a good method too. Very close in concept.

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John
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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/07 16:13:53 (permalink)
Soundwise
John
Arranger Tracks are the same concept as Cubase's Play Order tracks and a feature I would very much like in Sonar. I don't see the similarity with the Matrix view. 

Yes, it's two different approaches.
If I'm unsure of the form of the track, I would bounce the entire track to a single file, slice it to parts and load these parts to the Matrix editor. Then it will be a lot easier to toggle between different cells and decide which form (order of the parts) feels best.
If I want to try different sounds, levels, plugins, etc., then Mix Recall feature is what the doctor ordered.
For different cuts I would use different projects.
Anyway, I see no reason to toss portions of arrangement around in a separate section, as it not only clutters the workspace and waists time, but puts quite a load on system resources.
As for the Cubase style arrangement track it looks like a good and very welcome feature.


I'm not sure why people are not seeing the similarity. I have used play order tracks in Cubase and I do have Studio 1 3 though I have not used this feature yet. What they have in common is no slicing or dicing is done. You draw a section on the time line then once you have enough sections you place them into order of execution. The audio is untouched. You can turn it off too.  What the now time does is jump around under the control of the play list. You do not cut and paste anything. It will repeat a section too. I have not tried Studio 1's method but I don't see a lot of difference.   

Best
John
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Soundwise
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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/07 16:15:47 (permalink)
Anderton
  • In Preferences, under snap to grid, DON'T select snap to zero crossings because...
  • You want clean splits at precise boundaries (e.g., measures)

I'd love to learn more 'bout when it's better to use zero crossings and when to avoid it.
post edited by Soundwise - 2015/10/07 16:27:15
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Kev999
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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/07 16:29:15 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
The Studio One Arranger track as far as I know is different to the Cubase play order tracks.  In Cubase the music never changes in terms of how it looks on the main arrange window...
In Studio One V3 you also create the song sections above the music as per Cubase. They can be colored and named. The difference is however you can click and drag the arranger sections around.  So all the tracks below are cut neatly and moved.  Sections can be repeated and ordered in any way.  As you move sections around all the tracks below move as well.  It is one thing to hear different arrangements but to see them is better still...

 
I suggested a way that incoprorates both approaches in this earlier thread:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3257302

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Soundwise
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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/07 16:54:33 (permalink)
John
... no slicing or dicing is done. You draw a section on the time line then once you have enough sections you place them into order of execution. The audio is untouched. You can turn it off too.  What the now time does is jump around under the control of the play list. You do not cut and paste anything. It will repeat a section too. I have not tried Studio 1's method but I don't see a lot of difference.  

I understand how this feature works, I've seen their promo video. But what will you do when you feel, you need to change the order? That's right! You'll have to stop playback, redraw markers, rearrange the scratchpad. That's not very efficient. To quickly jump between sections I can just click on a particular marker in the Markers view. Cubase style arranger track, which works like a playlist, is certainly nice to have, but this Scratchpad concept is just not for everyone. Feels very unsafe to experiment within the main project. What if you get some error that will crush the DAW? Will you be able to (re-)store your work? What if you start getting constant crashes in the same project due to some edits? I had some troubles of this kind with the Reaper. It took me almost two days to recover the project that caused crashes. Since then I prefer more simple, safe, stable and predictable workflow to advanced auto-correctors and other questionable "time savers" (not bashing Reaper here, just used my experience as an example).
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John
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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/07 17:03:58 (permalink)
Soundwise
John
... no slicing or dicing is done. You draw a section on the time line then once you have enough sections you place them into order of execution. The audio is untouched. You can turn it off too.  What the now time does is jump around under the control of the play list. You do not cut and paste anything. It will repeat a section too. I have not tried Studio 1's method but I don't see a lot of difference.  

I understand how this feature works, I've seen their promo video. But what will you do when you feel, you need to change the order? That's right! You'll have to stop playback, redraw markers, rearrange the scratchpad. That's not very efficient. To quickly jump between sections I can just click on a particular marker in the Markers view. Cubase style arranger track, which works like a playlist, is certainly nice to have, but this Scratchpad concept is just not for everyone. Feels very unsafe to experiment within the main project. What if you get some error that will crush the DAW? Will you be able to (re-)store your work? What if you start getting constant crashes in the same project due to some edits? I had some troubles of this kind with the Reaper. It took me almost two days to recover the project that caused crashes. Since then I prefer more simple, safe, stable and predictable workflow to advanced auto-correctors and other questionable "time savers" (not bashing Reaper here, just used my experience as an example).


I agree with you. I really like how Cubase does this. To rearrange just rearrange the play list. Jeff may be right about it cutting tracks up in S1 3. I don't see the need for that. 

Best
John
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/07 17:54:49 (permalink)
Anderton
loathe to duplicate sections within a song, even if the parts are the same. I prefer to play new versions because in live performance, you don't copy and paste, you play. I like music that feels more "live."




I loath having to listen repeatedly to a song that I'm writing or working on that is still somewhat linear w crap musical parts still left in it as "placeholders " …having to substitute in my head the parts I want to hear can be a real buzzkill and energy drain .
 
This is the biggest reason why the nonlinear approach seems to work pretty good for me ..
 
Whatever the sections of my song may have happened to be when they were first started , are only that , a starting off point that exists only to get the creative juices flowing  .
Once the songs arrangements  / sections are slid along the timeline to a safe place, I can go a lot deeper into experimenting as to what I'm looking to express in the song or music…
 
Nowadays my workflow is to play all the parts myself . This can be a pretty tedious process . 
The fretted string family of instruments is my comfort zone . With all other instruments , my playing consistency is just not there yet …
I may drop in a loop that is "close but no cigar " as a " placeholder " .
Then I will exert the effort of playing and paying tribute to it with only one goal in mind …to come up with my own part that fits what i want to do much better. 
 
This approach allows the freedom to no longer have to settle for a second rate musical performance on the instruments I'm playing or editing.
It also allows me the opportunity to add and remove different musical instruments texturally during the arrangement to keep things interesting as the song progresses  .
 
My experience has been , putting the song back together is much easier when you have exciting dynamic parts that gel together to listen too…
 
Sure hope to get there some day w my mixing …
 
Kenny
post edited by kennywtelejazz - 2015/10/07 18:50:14

                   
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Kev999
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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/07 18:58:28 (permalink)
Here's a statement, and a question, from a CW developer that is highly relevant to this discussion:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3256876

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SMcNamara
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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/07 19:40:54 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bluzdog 2015/10/08 08:08:03
mudgel
I use StudioOne at times. I tried the arranger track and the Scratchpad and as much as I like it, it doesn't come anywhere near Mix Recall when you really now how to make use of it properly. Would I like the arranger view? Sure but I have a way to do that and with Mix Recall added to the mix, I think Sonar is still the better fit for me.



I use both Studio One 3 and Sonar Platinum, and first off, I agree there's no need to slag off either one, particularly Sonar on Sonar's own site!  With that aside, I don't think I see how Mix Recall matches up to the Arranger track (by that I mean they really seem to be two different things).  I like the Arranger for moving parts around and not having to worry whether midi, automation, markers, time changes, etc. all move with it.  Mix Recall is great for different "mixes" (hence the name).  The matrix can get you part way there, but hopefully Sonar will add something similar to the Arranger track.
 
The Scratch Pad -- if you haven't seen it in action -- is fantastic and clever.  Which means it's probably being examined by everyone (the same as Presonus watching what everyone else does  ).  For what it's worth, it seemed incongruous to elevate Sonar users above everyone else and soon after read a post that "Presonus must be desperate".  That just seemed uncalled for.  I've been with Sonar since the 90's (so not as long as some) but have been through many iterations, and I give S1 credit for some major workflow enhancements.  I sense Cakewalk will then improve on those and the battle begins again!  
 
Let's keep it civil (and accept the possibility another DAW may have a game-changing feature that we look forward to being installed into Sonar).
 
Carry on...

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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/08 07:02:35 (permalink)
Can it be done in a different manner?
 
Instead of GUI, a simple window with a 2-column structure [Marker Name, No of times]
In the main track view we can put as many markers we need and then we can call up the windows which initially will have the table of list of markers and default number of times=1.
 We can then rearrange the sequence dragging each marker and if required we can change the number of times.  Also Control+drag-drop will copy a marker.
 
Play back from within this window will be according to this sequence.
 
We can save sequences and recall.
 
I am not sure.
Regards.
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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/08 10:05:41 (permalink)
Actually that's something I've suggested - having what I call "play markers" where you could create a list of the markers and SONAR would jump to them as appropriate. The problem is having a totally gapless transition among the various sections.

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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/08 23:18:32 (permalink)
Anderton
Actually that's something I've suggested - having what I call "play markers" where you could create a list of the markers and SONAR would jump to them as appropriate. The problem is having a totally gapless transition among the various sections.


As I understand it "jump"ing around the playback of an audio file is exactly what happens when you split a clip and move part or copy part to another place on the timeline. Unless you apply trimming the edit is not destructive and you have access to all or part of the audio file by dragging the clip start or end.
 
The only trouble I see happening is the zero crossing thing unless you have a ship load of audio tracks all diced up.

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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/09 00:25:58 (permalink)
Anderton
Actually that's something I've suggested - having what I call "play markers" where you could create a list of the markers and SONAR would jump to them as appropriate. The problem is having a totally gapless transition among the various sections.


Yup - on my first day with Sonar, I had all my markers set and said, "Ok now where is the menu for my marker arrangement window... it's gotta be like the event viewer......no, not here... maybe...."
 
Ya know, I'm still looking?  :=)

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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/09 01:46:48 (permalink)
Tom Riggs
Anderton
Actually that's something I've suggested - having what I call "play markers" where you could create a list of the markers and SONAR would jump to them as appropriate. The problem is having a totally gapless transition among the various sections.


As I understand it "jump"ing around the playback of an audio file is exactly what happens when you split a clip and move part or copy part to another place on the timeline. Unless you apply trimming the edit is not destructive and you have access to all or part of the audio file by dragging the clip start or end.
 
The only trouble I see happening is the zero crossing thing unless you have a ship load of audio tracks all diced up.


I believe the problem is jumping around among multiple, different files as you would find in a typical project. If there was only one file, I assume it wouldn't be too hard to be gapless.

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Kev999
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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/09 01:52:41 (permalink)
Maybe there needs to be a separate set of buffers for playback. Low latency is only really required while recording.

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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/09 01:58:06 (permalink)
Anderton
Actually that's something I've suggested - having what I call "play markers" where you could create a list of the markers and SONAR would jump to them as appropriate. The problem is having a totally gapless transition among the various sections.


Yes Sir, it cannot be truly gapless in case of lots of clips and tracks present. But user can get a fair amount of idea how will the arrangement would be. We can also provide an intermediate option of rendering to a stereo track if the user wants to listen gapless. Once the user is satisfied final rearrangement can be done, may be an automated feature.
Regards
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Anderton
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Re: Looking for a way to duplicate Studio One’s "Arranger Track" functionality in Sonar... 2015/10/09 10:53:20 (permalink)
Snehankur
 
Yes Sir, it cannot be truly gapless in case of lots of clips and tracks present.



Noel had a comment about this in a related thread.

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