Looking for advice on building a system

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balok63
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2012/05/07 06:22:26 (permalink)

Looking for advice on building a system

My 9 year old computer is finally giving up the ghost, and I'm looking to get a new one that's optimized for use with the latest version of Sonar.  Since I'm not a hard-core gamer, I assume that any system that will run Sonar will run anything else that I would do (which will almost certainly be less demanding of CPU).  So here are my four questions:
 
(1) I'm planning to start with an i7 processor.  Should I expect any significant difference in performance depending on which flavor of i7 I opt for, in particular, will 6 cores (if such a thing exists anywhere outside of Intel's web site) give enough of an improvement in performance over 4 to be worth the additional cost?
 
(2) What motherboard do people recommend (assuming that it actually makes a difference)?
 
(3) Is there any sound card that people like, both for overall quality and for ease of use with Sonar?  In my ancient computer, I have a Creative SoundBlaster Audigy 2 and in the version of Sonar that I'd been running (with an embarassingly small version number), I could never figure out how to get it to use all of the channels of the sound card.
 
(4) Are there any other hardware issues that I should be aware of, and if so, what are they?
 
Thanks for any advice you can give. . .
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    gcruz
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    Re:Looking for advice on building a system 2012/05/07 20:47:58 (permalink)
    I'm using an i7 920 cpu and it works just awesome for me. Downside of this cpu is the memory, had trouble with 1600mhz and Intel tech told me that the i7 don't support other than 1033mhz, I did change it and all is good now. I think some guys are using faster memory. As for a sound card I'm using the Delta 1010lt and also works very good.

    Asus P6T Motherboard Intel LGA1366 Platform
    Intel Quad Core™i7 920 Processor
    6 gigs DDR3 Ram
    Windows 7pro 64 bit
    Roland GW-7 workstation
    Korg Padkontrol
    M-Audio U Control Uc 33
    1010 LT Delta Sound Card
    Project 5 V2.51
    Sonar X1 Producer
    Komplete 5
    Garritan 4
    #2
    balok63
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    Re:Looking for advice on building a system 2012/05/09 03:25:29 (permalink)
    Thanks for the reply.  How many tracks does the 1010lt support?  I was thinking of getting an ASUS Xonar card, which can process up to 128 independent sounds.  Or does this no longer matter in Sonar?  (I had been using an ancient version, in which the number of independent tracks in your sound file could not, AFAIK, exceed the maximum number of independent sounds that the sound card could support.)
    #3
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re:Looking for advice on building a system 2012/05/09 08:24:48 (permalink)
    I was thinking of getting an ASUS Xonar card, which can process up to 128 independent sounds.

     
    If the machine is specifically to be a DAW, get a dedicated pro audio interface.  The Asus card is not what you want.
    Choose a unit that's a known rock-solid unit (RME, MOTU, etc)... and you'll never give it a second thought.
     
    Modern i7 CPUs have enough DSP power to run multiple soft-synths.
     
     

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #4
    Wave
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    Re:Looking for advice on building a system 2012/05/09 09:17:59 (permalink)
    Go to this site to choose your chip http://cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html
     
    They rate the biggest bang for your buck.  When I built mine it was the 2600-K.  K being overclockable style chip.
     
    Choose your motherboard wisely due to the fact the PCI sound cards are some of the best (fastest).
    However, my Lynx card is PCI not the new PCIe.  So I had to choose a legacy Mother Board that had that slot. 
     
    Also, I don't recommend building a mini tower anymore.  My build was a mini tower because it fits in my insulated cabinet by my desk to keep the fans quite (its a ported cabinet for fresh air).  To  hard to find parts like chip cooler fans for overclocking etc....
     
    Take a close look at using SSDs.  It's the wave of the future.  Sonar's automatic backup and windows happens so fast- I don't even see it happening at all.
     
    Also,  think about a good video card for multi monitors.  Its all in windows 7 now and you don't even need any other software to run them, just the video card driver.
     
    Just make sure you start on paper first.  everything has to say that it is for whatever part you are matching.  Chip > Motherboard has chips socket> case fits Motherboard> etc...etc....
     
    And like you probably have learned over the years get the most you can afford at the time because the software will keep getting more and more complicated (if history stays on course).
     
    I saved pretty good $ building my own but it took a long long time.  When you count  research research, research and ordering with a return,  etc...etc...   ; was it all worth it- yes because now I feel like I know a lot more about computers.
     
    P.S.  Oh and be very careful.  For example; did you know that Ram sticks all have to be a matched set?  I didn't. 
     
    Hope this helps

    Cheers,

    Wave




    Sonar Producer Expanded X1d 64
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    #5
    balok63
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    Re:Looking for advice on building a system 2012/05/10 09:33:36 (permalink)
    Thanks to Jim and Wave. Actually, my new computer will probably end up not being dedicated to SONAR, which is why I'm planning to get a dual-boot system: the OS on one drive will be for SONAR and will be used with the computer disconnected from the Internet (so that anti-virus etc. won't be there to eat CPU), and the OS on another drive will be for general use. I actually have a sound card-related question that's admittedly on the verge of being moronic. With my current system, I compose using Sibelius and then export a MIDI file into an ancient version of SONAR (that's why I want a sound card with a lot of independent channels -- one for each staff). Many "modern" sound cards generally don't have MIDI inputs. Does that mean that that I need to get a MIDI card, or a MIDI file imported into SONAR playback even without a separate MIDI card? And if I don't want an ASUS Xonar sound card, what sound card do I want? I don't normally use my computer for general music listening and movie watching activities. But I do use it to "play" orchestral scores created in Sibelius. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the information on the web sites, but it seems that even the high-end MOTU and RME cards have fewer I/O channels than my old SoundBlaster Audigy did. Thanks again.
    #6
    Wave
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    Re:Looking for advice on building a system 2012/05/10 10:14:13 (permalink)
    Not to sure about using two drives for Anti-virus; due to the fact that the virus could possible move into the other drive (but it sounds like a cheap solution).  You may be ok here,  it just occured to me you could still scan both drives (think about down time for scan though).
    What I did was use a older computer for the internet and have VGA and DVI going to one monitor and just switch back and forth (using the monitor's input menu button) between the two computers.   
    When your talking about Midi inputs going into the sound card (cable wise) It is just for an instrument/hardware (my Midi keyboard controller has USB into Computer not sound card). 
     
    You  don't need any Midi built into the card to run midi files.  Thats a computer language that is within Sonar nothing to do with the sound Card.  Cards do have inputs for Midi and some even have Midi software.  But you don't have to have it with Sonar - As long as your instrument is not Midi out (cable).
     
    As far as making music Midi files and importing them into Sonar each with its own channel out to your "Sound Cards Mains" you can do it that way but my lynx card has 8 right and left stereo channels.  I would be limited to that.
     
    However, a option may be to Solo each Midi track using Sonar's "Exclusive Solo Mode" with "Solo Override" on the tracks you want to always hear.  When you click on a solo button it shuts the other soloed tracks off automatically.  That way you can hear any Midi track at any given time using just two Main channels (right and left stereo).
     
    Got to go run the garbage out to the street for the garbage persons; hope I helped
    post edited by Wave - 2012/05/10 10:27:40

    Cheers,

    Wave




    Sonar Producer Expanded X1d 64
    Windows 7 Pro SP1, i7-2600k 3.4GHz, Crucial SSD Drives,
    16 GB1866MHz Ram, Radeon HD6800-3 displays
    Lynx L22 Sound Card , Mackie HR624 Monitors
    PCR-500 Keyboard Controller
    #7
    slartabartfast
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    Re:Looking for advice on building a system 2012/05/11 02:32:21 (permalink)

    that's why I want a sound card with a lot of independent channels -- one for each staff

     
     
    ?
    Not sure I follow this. Lots of independent input channels on a sound card are useful if you are using lots of microphones to INPUT recording data into Sonar to keep the recorded signals seperate so that they can be processed seperately in the computer. But if you are generating your sound in the box using softsynths, Sonar supplies the multiple channels/tracks to keep the mix seperated for tweaking. You can have essentially unlimited channels for mixing, not just one per staff but several per "instrument". From dozens of tracks that you work on seperately you mix down to the ones you need for output. Output of stereo only requires two outputs one for each ear. A single stereo plug output would be sufficient for that. Output of surround generally only requires five channels max, and they do not have to be speaker connections to the sound card if it has a digitally encoded output. The surround signal can be split in an external amp or speaker set from one connection and distributed to the multiple speakers. Even if you are controlling external synths, a midi out will allow daisy chaining of multiple devices.
     
    The sound card for computer generated sound does not have to be very complicated at all. You want one that will deliver a clean (low noise) analogue output for your own listening, because it makes it easier to hear what you are doing. But even a crappy noisy card will not affect the quality of your digital music data in the computer, saved to disc or written to a CD. That data remains pristine, and is completely independent of the sound card quality.
     
    If you are doing live recording, then the digital sound depends a lot on the quality of the room, the sound card, and the microphones and pre-amps you are using aliong the chain from analogue sound to digital recording, since the ability of a computer to clean up bad audio is limited once it has been converted to digital. And as mentioned previously you need one input/microphone channel for every analogue source you intend to record simultaneously.
    post edited by slartabartfast - 2012/05/11 02:36:04
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    balok
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    Re:Looking for advice on building a system 2012/05/13 01:06:53 (permalink)
    @Slartabartfast:

    I have been using an extremely ancient version of Sonar (3.0 if you must know).  If I want to hear all of the tracks while editing the MIDI file imported from a score-writing program, I have to send each track to a separate input channel of the sound card (a Soundblaster Audigy).  I had assumed that modern versions of Sonar worked the same way.
    #9
    slartabartfast
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    Re:Looking for advice on building a system 2012/05/13 03:02:26 (permalink)
    I have been using an extremely ancient version of Sonar (3.0 if you must know). If I want to hear all of the tracks while editing the MIDI file imported from a score-writing program, I have to send each track to a separate input channel of the sound card (a Soundblaster Audigy)

     
    Well, it has been a while since I have used Sonar 3, but I believe that since Sonar 1 the number of tracks was unlimited. By assigning the output of multiple instrument tracks to the same output bus, then the output of that main bus to the sound card input, it was possible to hear the output of all of those tracks. Sonar 3 will cetainly let you assign multiple tracks output to a main bus, and I am pretty sure you could then assign the outputs of the mains to the inputs of the Creative Sound Mixer. I grant that the documentation for the Creative Sound Mixer was extremely limited, so it might not have been obvious how to do this, but I think your current setup should be able to sound multiple tracks simultaneously within the processing limits of your computer.  One difference between a pro or prosumer audio card and the soundblaster line, is that soundblasters had a built in synthesizer and soundfont player. So if you were using the soundblaster synth, you may have had some problems/limitations there.
    #10
    balok63
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    Re:Looking for advice on building a system 2012/05/13 03:20:39 (permalink)
    @slartabartfast:

    I agree that at least some of the limitations seem to have been from the sound card.  I don't want to spend gazillions on a sound card (I just use the computer for creating sound files -- if I want to listen to music, I use what in the olden days was called a hi-fi -- and I don't plan to use it to record live music), which is why I was wondering if something like a Xonar Essence STX would be sufficient for my needs.
    #11
    slartabartfast
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    Re:Looking for advice on building a system 2012/05/13 13:20:16 (permalink)
    Not that I think you will not find a new computer and sound card a valuable investment, but I am pretty sure that your soundblaster would be sufficient for your needs. If you do not understand how to play multiple tracks simultaneously in Sonar 3, then you will not be able to do it in Sonar X1 either. The sound card you are using is completely irrelevant. This is not a hardware problem, and it will not be solved by buying newer or better hardware.
     
    What are you using to turn your midi file into audio data? Are you using the soundblaster synthesizer or a soft synth, sampler or rompler? Even with the lame Soundblaster mixer and synth, you should be able to record multiple audio tracks generated in the Soundblaster and play them back all at once from Sonar 3.
     
    It has become pretty obvious that you are trying to send the output of a track in Sonar 3 directly to your sound card. If your sound card driver is set up to only accept two connections from Sonar, and you send one track to stero right and one track to stereo left and then try to send a third track directly to the sound card there is no place to send it to--you used them up with the first two tracks. The solution with Sonar and with almost every other audio software available is to NEVER SEND OUTPUT FROM A TRACK DIRECTLY TO THE SOUND CARD.
     
    First Principles: You can have dozens of tracks on your computer but when you listen to the combined tracks in stereo they all have to come out of two speakers. Somewhere they have to be mixed together. Where do they get mixed? In your case the answer is in the computer and specifically in Sonar 3. When do they get mixed? Before the stereo signal is sent to the sound card. Believe me it is possible to play many tracks simultaneously through your sondblaster if you have your sonar tracks set up correctly.
     
    A midi track has to send its output to a synthesizer of some sort. The synthesizer has to send the audio data it creates in response to the midi file control to an audio track. The audio track has to send its audio data to a sound card eventually, but it does not have to send its audio data directly to the sound card.
     
    Instead of setting the output of an audio track to your sound card, send the track audio output to a BUS. A bus is an electrical term for a place where a lot of circuits are connected together, in an analogue mixer it is exaclty that. In audio software, a bus is a program module that combines inputs from several sources (tracks) "adds" them together and passes the mixed signal to another location. A bus will accept lots of track ouputs. For this purpose you can have one bus for each of the sound cards audio connections. So set the output of any track you want to hear in the mix to the bus, then set the output of the bus to the sound card.
     
    http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec03/articles/sonarnotes.htm
     
    Signal flow in Sonar is a lot simpler and logical than music notation, but you do need to spend some time understanding how it works.
    post edited by slartabartfast - 2012/05/13 18:45:32
    #12
    balok63
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    Re:Looking for advice on building a system 2012/05/14 01:42:15 (permalink)
    @slartibartfast:

    > If you do not understand how to play multiple tracks simultaneously in Sonar 3,

    As Marge Gunderson says, you have no call to get snippy with me.  Of course I know how to *play* multiple tracks simultaneously in Sonar 3 -- the main reason for my wanting an upgraded computer is that if I play more than a couple at a time, the CPU crashes, and no amount of fiddling with latencies and buffers or stopping other programs (e.g. antivirus) that might prevent SONAR from using its fair share of the CPU seems to help.  (IOW, despite all appearances to the contrary, I am in fact not a moron -- just someone who is about a decade behind the times.)

    > What are you using to turn your midi file into audio data? Are you using the
    > soundblaster synthesizer or a soft synth, sampler or rompler?

    I generally use Garritan Personal Orchestra for solo instruments and Edirol for section strings and percussion.

    >  In your case the answer is in the computer and specifically in Sonar 3. When do they
    > get mixed? Before the stereo signal is sent to the sound card. Believe me it is possible to
    > play many tracks simultaneously through your sondblaster if you have your sonar tracks
    > set up correctly.

    Yes, and I manage to do that successfully.  But at least the way my old computer is set up, I have to assign each one of the Sonar tracks to a MIDI I/O channel of the sound card.  I suppose that could have been a mistake on the part of the people who sold me the computer, but that's the way it is -- the only option for MIDI device that I have (at least the only one that actually leads to a sound coming out of the speakers) is the Soundblaster. 

    > Signal flow in Sonar is a lot simpler and logical than music notation, but you do need to
    > spend some time understanding how it works.

    Which is kind of the whole point of my initial query:  since it's been nearly a decade since I bought a computer, I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that improvements in Sonar and possibly in hardware (e.g. the sound card) and operating system (Windows 7.0 vs. XP) may have made it possible to create a signal flow that is simpler and more logical than it was at the time that I got my previous computer.  Before I invest the money in a new computer (and in an updated version of Sonar), I am trying to figure out what system I can design that will best meet my needs.

    If you tell me that the treatment of the MIDI signals no longer needs the involvement of the sound card, then I can accept that.  If you tell me that it never did and that I was misled by an incorrect setup of my computer into thinking that all MIDI I/O had to go via the sound card, I can accept that as well (although I remember being told at the time that sound cards that lacked MIDI I/O were less user-friendly for music editing than Soundblaster cards were). 

    If all I need to know is that for editing a MIDI file produced by a notation program like Sibelius or Finale, the sound card doesn't matter, and that I will find that any sound card equally compatible with and equally easy to use with Sonar, then that's all that you have to tell me without putting on airs about your superior knowledge.  The issue then becomes which sound card is most compatible with Sibelius.  The people at Sibelius claim that the ASUS ASIO drivers don't work, and that an ASUS sound card will cause Sibelius to crash.  I have been unable to get independent confirmation for that claim -- it might be true, but on the other hand, M-Audio and Sibelius are both sold by Avid, so the people at Sibelius certainly have an interest in convincing me not to buy an ASUS sound card.

    #13
    balok63
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    Re:Looking for advice on building a system 2012/05/14 07:13:35 (permalink)
    P.S.  If you still think that I can't get multi-channel playback from Sonar 3.0, listen to the mp3 at http://www.scoreexchange.com/scores/14962.html, which was created from a wav file that was created using Sonar 3.0 (despite the program's crashing every 5 seconds whenever I would try to get the full orchestra to play).
    #14
    slartabartfast
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    Re:Looking for advice on building a system 2012/05/15 17:03:14 (permalink)
    I apologize for underestimating your abilities balock63. Sometimes in trying to be helpful, without knowing who is at the other end, I make incorrect assumptions. You are not the first to note that the tone of my advice sometimes seems like putting on airs--some would say self-aggrandizing supercilious condescension is more apt. I was not trying to be deliberately insulting. 
     
    I was, and remain, confused about the original idea that a sound card with more independant channels would help with your problem. A better sound card might be useful in a lot of ways, but the sound card is probably not at the root of your performance problems.
     
    If you are having overloads/dropouts while attempting to play a lot of tracks through your main out bus, then a better processor/motherboard would help. Even more important than a processor upgrade for someone who is using a lot of memory-resident samples, would be more addressable memory. That means you need to run a 64-bit Windows system. Windows 7 -64 would be the most reliable system for that. You can get access to 16 GB with the Home Premium version. That should be more than enough. Although the Professional version will address 192 GB of memory, there is no motherboard made that will accomodate that much.
     
     
    #15
    balok63
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    Re:Looking for advice on building a system 2012/05/16 09:47:07 (permalink)
    Thanks for your advice. I am hoping that a 64-bit Windows system with an i7-3930K processor and 32 GB of RAM will solve at least some of my problems -- I've been warned that even that may not be enough to have an "orchestra" running without crashing the system ("buy a bunch o' computers and run them in parallel, with one dedicated to strings, one to brass, one to woodwinds, and one to percussion" was the advice I was given). As I said, the source of my confusion appears to have been that in my old system, for whatever reason, the only MIDI I/O that I had was via the sound card. If in the last decade, that's become irrelevant, than all I can say is thank you to whoever is responsible for the improvements in technology. If I understand you correctly, since I don't actually do any live recording (although I have thought of using something like SoundForge to digitize my LPs -- you can see what a Luddite I am), the actual sound card isn't all that important as far as SONAR is concerned. The only question remaining then is how much difference the motherboard makes. Since most sound cards in the price range that I can afford still have PCI interfaces, that means that instead of a P9X79 "deluxe," I would have to use the plain old P9X79. Naturally, the P9X79 only has two 6-Gb SATA connections, which means that if you want an SSD and two HDDs, one of the HDDs is going to be connected to the slower port (not, I suppose, that it would make a measurable difference). Or are there decent, reasonably priced PCIe sound cards? (The ASUS Xonar is out of the question because of the ASIO problems I mentioned earlier.)
    #16
    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Looking for advice on building a system 2012/05/16 10:41:50 (permalink)
    I am hoping that a 64-bit Windows system with an i7-3930K processor and 32 GB of RAM will solve at least some of my problems -- I've been warned that even that may not be enough to have an "orchestra" running without crashing the system


    This is exactly what I'm running (see sig)

    I recently finished building my orchestral template based around EWQLSO Platinum Plus.
    The template consists of about 7/8 instances of the Play Engine and I have loaded up more articulations than I probably need, and so far ir barely tickles my cpu, RAM is reporting 7.7Gb

    I have yet to actually compose anything, though I don't foresee any problems.

    A couple of years ago, it would have been necessary for this scenario to require multiple computers running different parts of the libraries, but not any more.

    CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughout
    Custom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
    #17
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